The Specifics of the Magician's Trade, Physical Barrier, Stunball, and Astral Projection Options

[KurenaiYami]

Greetings and salutations, my fellow Dumpshockers. I come to you with a few questions that came up in my last session when the player wished to use some spells in a manner I'm not sure they cover. For the record, all I have is the BBB, so anything outside of that is not kosher in my campaign until I get my hands on it.

First, Physical Barrier. The exact mechanics of what this wall is elude me. At one point, the player wanted to move the barrier with him, so as to have protection from something chasing him. At another point, he used it to support his weight and walk over a mine field without setting anything off. I have trouble seeing this spell being mobile at one point, yet afixed in space enough so that it hovers and supports weight. Maybe that's just me.

My first instinct is to treat it as an actual wall, with weight and the like, and leaving it immobile, but...I'm not sure about it, and very open to suggestions.

Now, onto the second spell, Stunball, though this question goes for pretty much any area Combat spell. How specific do you allow targetting to be of area spells? The player wanted to catch a vampire on the very edge of the spell, while his prey (who was in physical contact with the vampire) remained unharmed. In my mind, I see this like like trying to catch somebody in the very edge of a grenade blast, but perhaps I'm overthinking it. Thoughts?

Now, this one is probably more straightforward and I'm probably blind for not being able to find this rule in the BBB, but how does one "hide" from somebody trying to detect them via Astral Projection? Do they have to make perception tests that you can hide from? Can they see your aura on the other side of a wall, or do they have to pass through it to see the glow?

The specific case I'm talking about had a highly trained...we'll call him an assassin (a Superior Prime Runner) tracking the PCs and the gentleman and lady under their protection through a forest. Life is abound, so he is but one aura in a sea of life. He is also trained specifically to counter spellcasters and, through various methods and a few slip ups on the PC's part on a previous run, knows the general capabilities of the party's mage, and is actively hiding from him.

On top of this, should the mage find the aura of the Prime Runner, the data gathered from Assensing is apparently based on hits, not net hits, so no matter how much he's trying to hide what he is, he's an open book to anybody with Assensing. Or am I reading that too literally?

To sum up, as I was a bit more verbose than I intended to be:

1. How exactly do you handle Physical Barrier, in regards to its reacting to the various laws of Physics?

2. How accurately do you allow your players to target with area spells?

3. How do you hide from an astrally projecting mage?

4. Is there a way to make yourself harder to detect?

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, and I'd appreciate any suggestions you can give or any rule citations that I can't seem to find in relation to these queries.

[nezumi]

First, Physical Barrier. The exact mechanics of what this wall is elude me. At one point, the player wanted to move the barrier with him, so as to have protection from something chasing him. At another point, he used it to support his weight and walk over a mine field without setting anything off. I have trouble seeing this spell being mobile at one point, yet afixed in space enough so that it hovers and supports weight. Maybe that's just me.

My first instinct is to treat it as an actual wall, with weight and the like, and leaving it immobile, but...I'm not sure about it, and very open to suggestions.

Hmm... I don't see a lot on this, so it's GM's choice. However you rule it is right.

I personally would say that the barrier has no weight, but is immobile (otherwise if you hit it, the barrier would just fly away!) So he can make a barrier bridge floating in space, but it won't move. He wants Armor for that.

Now, onto the second spell, Stunball, though this question goes for pretty much any area Combat spell. How specific do you allow targetting to be of area spells? The player wanted to catch a vampire on the very edge of the spell, while his prey (who was in physical contact with the vampire) remained unharmed.

If the two are a meter apart, I allow it. The rules are pretty clear, there's a line of full power, then a line of no power, unlike a grenade where the power drops off with distance. If I were feeling mean, I'd require he do some mental calculations to properly judge distance, but I generally don't. It's a cheap trick, but I like my players and the opportunities for them to use it are rare.

If the two are in close combat, or especially if the vampire is currently feeding, I wouldn't allow it, however. They aren't THAT good at judging distance.

Now, this one is probably more straightforward and I'm probably blind for not being able to find this rule in the BBB, but how does one "hide" from somebody trying to detect them via Astral Projection? Do they have to make perception tests that you can hide from? Can they see your aura on the other side of a wall, or do they have to pass through it to see the glow?

It's just a normal stealth/perception check. I believe there's a specialization of stealth for hiding on the astral. The book isn't nearly as specific as it should be, but I give bonuses if there's lots of cover (life or magic), penalties if it's a pretty lifeless area, and penalties if the person hiding can't see on the astral himself (since he doesn't know what to look for so much).

No, auras do not bleed through walls. While the aura glows, it doesn't extend very far at all, just barely beyond the clothes. I think it would be reasonable to argue that if there was something akin to power armor or an elemental from Mechwarrior, that would be sufficient to hide the person inside from targeting with spells.

On top of this, should the mage find the aura of the Prime Runner, the data gathered from Assensing is apparently based on hits, not net hits, so no matter how much he's trying to hide what he is, he's an open book to anybody with Assensing. Or am I reading that too literally?

IF the mage finds him, yes. You can't really change or lie on your aura. Technically, assensing tests are also the best lie detectors as well. There might be a magical solution to this, but non-mages need not apply.

[bibliophile20]

I treat Barrier spells like force fields as presented in Star Trek: a thin but strong wall of pure force that can support weight but has no friction. My personal opinions on the situations that you presented would be that, yes, he can move it, but he has to essentially recast it at half the original Force and reresist half the drain ever so often while its in motion. As for walking across it... it has no friction! Agility+Reaction (3) test to walk across at half normal speed across it without slipping and landing on his ass; getting back to his feet would be neigh impossible. And I suppose that he could give it an incline and slide across it, he'd hardly be in control of his own motion by the time he exited his homemade luge.

[KurenaiYami]

Thank you, Nezumi, for taking the time to answer all the questions. Your answers were most helpful. Though in light of this information, I should probably let the Mage tweak his character. He wanted to focus on Assensing, but...he has no Perception. Unless taking the simple action to Observe in Detail, he has a dice pool of 0.

And bibliophile20, your answer was amusing, as the mage asked in the last session if he'd be able to use his barriers to travel in a manner similar to Ice Man, and by your ruling, with enough skill...he could. I may have to take him seriously, now.

[WeaverMount]

About moving the the barrier RAW says it takes a complex action and may things that happen often in combat can break the magician's concentration.

If an area-effect spell is sustained [such as Physical Barrier], the affected area may be
moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of
sight. Characters who “drop out� of the affected area are no longer
affected by the spell; characters who are “enveloped� by the area
must defend against the effects of the spell as appropriate.
If the gamemaster chooses, certain circumstances may
threaten to break a magician’s concentration while she is sustaining
a spell, such as taking damage, full defense, dropping prone,
and so on. If a magician’s concentration is disrupted while sustaining
a spell, she must make a Willpower + Spellcasting (2)
Test to avoid dropping the sustained spell (note that the sustaining
modifier does not apply to this test).

About the targeting spells extremely precisely, IMO I actually think that software can handle it. DNI and/or Cyber Eyes, should be able to tell what point you are focused on visually. I'm pretty sure every tradition focus visually where they are casting. Spells have a very predictable AoE. A program uses your target point, the AoE, to paint a sphere of a given size and style on your Image Link. Given the sophistication of AR (and the libraries and IDEs that drive it) in SR4 you could likely write this applet in 20 minuets with no skill but a tutorial. It's up to you exactly what level of precision you think such a system would allow, or if you even like the feel, but by RAW it seems easy and inevitable to me

[Ravor]

And remember that any Mage worth her salt will have cybereyes and a datajack anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[WeaverMount]

you know it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Larme]

1. How exactly do you handle Physical Barrier, in regards to its reacting to the various laws of Physics?

The book says either it's a dome, or it's a wall. Both of these suggest that they're anchored to the ground. They wouldn't have said wall to refer to something that floats, would they? Last I checked, walls don't do that. And they didn't intend to let you make a floating horizontal wall to protect you from above, that's what the dome is for. Now, I don't think there's any problem with letting the "wall" be a floor, but it would be a floor touching the ground. But it's a force field with no weight, so it wouldn't set off landmines. And because it has a barrier rating, it can bear your weight, you could walk across the force field without setting off mines (unless your feet when through the barrier, like if you made a melee attack and made a hole in it). So I don't think your player should have been able to make a floating barrier, but he still could have walked across that minefield, so no biggie. I think the spell could also make a bridge, so long as it had solid ground to rest on at either end.

2. How accurately do you allow your players to target with area spells?

If someone wants to know "about" how far apart two people are, that's an obvious observation that doesn't require a perception test. If they're a meter apart, they'll get "pretty close, within a meter or two." If they're ten meters apart, they'll get "not that close, maybe 5-15 meters," or something like that. Making a careful observation would require a Perception check and an Observe In Detail action. The more hits on the test, the more accurately they can judge the distance. If they have a smartlink, it will still take an Observe In Detail as they take two sightings with the range finder and tell the software to triangulate distance. But the reading they get back will be accurate without needing a roll. In no case may a person perfectly target a spell's area without somehow figuring out the distances involved. Whether that's a matter of dead reckoning or lucky guessing, players can't know distances automatically. Those are something the GM should keep under his hat, since IRL people don't have an implicit understanding of how far apart things are from other things... Some people are great at eyeballing, but they still have to take a look and make a guess, it's not automatic.

3. How do you hide from an astrally projecting mage?

You use Infiltration. There is no spec for astral hiding. The spec depends on your environment, and applies equally to astral and meat hiding. That's because everything you can hide behind on the meat plane still conceals you on the astral. The only difference is that the visibility modifiers are different. On the astral, there are no normal visibility mods. But there are special astral visibility mods in Street Magic, like if a place is crawling with life forms (i.e. a crowded or densely foliated area) that imposes a pretty big penalty.

The only real difference that I can see is that very often, astral forms will be floating reasonably high above the ground when searching for something. If someone is hiding physically and is not thinking about the astral (or anything detecting them from above) they will leave themselves open to aerial detection. So a guy might be perfectly invisible from the street when hiding in a dumpster, but the astral spotter hovering above would have a pretty hefty bonus to his dice pool to find him if the lid isn't closed. Similarly, you could hide behind a car and be hard to spot from the street, but you would almost be *not* hiding from above. It's important to determine whether the person is expecting aerial detection when figuring out stealth with regards to a soaring astral mage.

4. Is there a way to make yourself harder to detect?

I think the astral grenade in Arsenal creates a modifier to astral perception. Hiding in a bunch of plants, or in a big crowd would impose the astral visibility modifiers from Street Magic. And obviously magical means, like illusion spells and the Concealment spirit power, would still work on the Astral.

[fool]

there was a post on the faq about using physical barrier as a bridge and it was ruled out as a possibility. Basically it can stop stuff but can't support weight. I'd have no problem whatsoever of allowing it to be floating in the air, however. It's magic so it doesn't need the support of a solid ground to stay in place.
if two people are in melee combat, or actually touching each other, it is harder to justify exactly targeting one and not the other. However, I would probably allow it in the close melee but not touching *(vampire feeding example). If you need to you can explain it as the mana of the one being a conductor and causing the spell to effect the other. The other thing to remember is that it effects everything in a los sphere centered on a specific point so if another ally is in the area there is no way to make pockets of protected areas for them
as to hiding on the astral simply go into a solid object.

[Jhaiisiin]

Just went through the FAQ and couldn't find any ruling like you mentioned, unless I'm blind and missed it. If barriers worked the way you mentioned though, it would make them more like the shield technology from dune rather than actual wall-style barriers. Fast hits don't get through, slow motions move right past with little to no resistance. That would completely change the dynamic of how they're used though.

As for the anchoring issue, a "wall" to me is a flat surface usually serving to enclose an area, be it angled or not. Not sure I'd rule "floor" as a "wall." If however, the game intended this as a more freeform version of wall to mean a flat, rectangular barrier erected anywhere within caster LOS, then that would be different. Could be overhead, under foot, or wherever else he needed.

[Larme]

there was a post on the faq about using physical barrier as a bridge and it was ruled out as a possibility.

You could make that interpretation, but I don't find any support for it in the RAW. We're not talking about a bullet barrier spell, it's a barrier to everything. If a barrier couldn't support weight, someone would just need to push on it instead of whacking it and they'd sink right through. Unless you made the spell distinguish between people walking on it and pushing on it... That wouldn't make a lot of sense though IMO.

The RAW based interpretation would be that the barrier can only make a wall, not a floor. It can be vertical, or a dome. I don't think that's strictly required by the RAW, but it's definitely reasonable. And it's something you might want to make if you had a character wanting to use physical barrier to walk over every single floor everywhere, making all floor traps ineffective and also making the game feel kind of cheesy.

[KurenaiYami]

as to hiding on the astral simply go into a solid object.

The person in question is not on the Astral, so should he attempt to go into a solid object, either his head or the object would likely suffer some damage.

To all who have posted, thank you. I feel as though I have a reasonable pool of opinions and rule citings to start to craft some rulings for my game.

For Physical Barrier, I'll have it support weight and be affected by gravity (so no more of his floating disc nonsense without Levitate). I'm not sure whether or not it was designed to work as a floor, but I can't think of a reason the spell should be restricted to two dimensions...but for game balance...I guess I'll go with the "only wall" interpretation.

As for specific border targeting, should the targets be within one meter of eachother, I'll make the character use Perception to figure out if it's a safe shot. Once they get to be physically touching, I'll either make it impossible or make an extremely high perception test to do partial damage (as the target won't be fully enveloped) without harming the hostage. I'll have to think a bit more on that one.

The Astral hiding thing has been well covered. Thank you all.

[Jhaiisiin]

I KNEW I forgot to mention the targeting thing. In our group, we have people make a logic+perception roll to see if the character is able to figure out on the fly exactly where to target that darned stunball.

[nezumi]

The faq is terrible. If the faq says you can't use the barrier as a bridge probably means that the most reasonable explanation is you CAN use it as a bridge.

edit: Changed correct saying wall where I meant bridge.

[Whipstitch]

I'm not a fan of the Logic+Perception idea at all. It already costs 3 bps to know the spell and another 4-24 points spent on Spellcasting skills to know how to use your talents as it is, plus it seems to be boning Charisma and Intuition traditions that don't emphasize Logic for no particular reason but to give them another point of failure. Targeting your spell properly is a spellcasting check, and it's already required; arbitrarily jerking around the radius and location should be glitch territory-- Heck, considering how disastrous a miscalculation could be, it could very well be critical glitch territory.

[Larme]

The faq is terrible. If the faq says you can't use the barrier as a wall probably means that the most reasonable explanation is you CAN use it as a bridge.

First of all, the FAQ doesn't say that at all. And the fact that the FAQ says something is not a logical reason for doing the opposite. The FAQ is terrible, therefore it's wrong is an ad hominem logical fallacy, except of course that the FAQ is not a people. But the principle is the same.

[Method]

About the targeting spells extremely precisely, IMO I actually think that software can handle it. DNI and/or Cyber Eyes, should be able to tell what point you are focused on visually. I'm pretty sure every tradition focus visually where they are casting. Spells have a very predictable AoE. A program uses your target point, the AoE, to paint a sphere of a given size and style on your Image Link. Given the sophistication of AR...

I would agree except that the magician probably doesn't think in terms of "force = diameter" when casting a spell. That strikes me as a little metagamey. The problem is that the magician has to estimate how much of his power to use, and could very easily misjudge the amount of juice he needs to put into a spell to get the radius he wants. It would be like trying to throw a baseball at a certain speed or rolling a bowling ball just hard enough to knock down the first pin only. While theoretically possible I think it would be very difficult to do.

[Whipstitch]

In fact, I bet it's so difficult to do you need some skill called Spellcasting for it. Oh, wait.

[Method]

I just don't think that a magician has that finite control over his power regardless of skill and especially while casting an AoE spell. I wouldn't allow it. If you want it to work that way in your game then have at it.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I was just pointing out that things were getting out into houserule territory here. I play by the RAW, for the most part, so mages can and do have fine control of their powers, it's just difficult. I let people withhold dice from their spellcasting tests to expand or reduce the radius and everything. The more you tinker, the more likely you are to glitch or have the spell resisted.

[WeaverMount]

I would agree except that the magician probably doesn't think in terms of "force = diameter" when casting a spell. That strikes me as a little metagamey. The problem is that the magician has to estimate how much of his power to use, and could very easily misjudge the amount of juice he needs to put into a spell to get the radius he wants. It would be like trying to throw a baseball at a certain speed or rolling a bowling ball just hard enough to knock down the first pin only. While theoretically possible I think it would be very difficult to do.

Here is the thing AoE spells have very measurable step function. Each force is 2 whole meters of difference. That is a whole person's length of difference. I'm pretty sure that in the last 59 years the boys at MITT noticed this pattern. You can have spells be smooth gradients at your table, but that is soundly a house rule. Whipstich already pointed out saying magicians can't pick there exact force is house rules nerf justified by your conception of SR spell casting. There is one point that I'm certain that all magicians know beyound all doubt: the point they start overcasting.

[Method]

Whipstich already pointed out saying magicians can't pick there exact force is house rules nerf justified by your conception of SR spell casting.

Thats exactly what I'm getting at though- the *magician* doesn't pick their exact force because force is a metagame construct. The *player* chooses the force. So yes, in the game of SR there is a "very measurable step function" but it is an artifact of a rules system. The magian doesn't necessarily think in those terms- he gauges the power of the spell by his level of exertion. Again, its just like in baseball- we can measure a pitch accurately in MPH but the pitcher just throws the ball faster or slower. Asking him to throw it at exactly 83.5 MPH is unrealistic. And to be clear, I use the RAW when it comes to AoE. I just don't think the character perceives the SR world in term of the rules.

There is one point that I'm certain that all magicians know beyound all doubt: the point they start overcasting.

I completely agree. But again, I don't think the character's thought process is "Okay, well my Magic attribute is a 4, but I really need to nuke this guy, so I'll cast at a Force 6..."


[edit] And again, let me reiterate that I agree the technology is there. In fact I think your idea of an AR overlay of the spells AoE is actually a cool idea. I just think that the hard part would be for a magician to accurately fill that area exactly to the edge without going over.

[magi]

Well, I would say that physical barrier could be used to put stuff on, move around on, whatever - it's a wall of force created to a size and sturdiness of the caster's choosing, shaped like a flat surface, e.g. wall, or a dome. doesn't have to be anchored, but does have to maintain that shape.

Of course, when using it to "fly" you have to take a complex action, which limits your IPs by 1 (can be bad if you don't have Increase Reflexes on a sustaining focus). You also can only move at your normal walking rate, or use a free action to move at your run rate. The most notable issue is the fact that if someone DESTROYS the wall under your feet, you fall to the ground - I could see this ending badly.

For all uses that require you moving somewhere, Levitate is the better option. Period. You fly your magic x # of hits for free (unlike using the wall, there is no action required; this could, at 4 hits at magic 6, give you 24 meters per combat turn, which is 1 less than a human at a run and does not incur the run penalty), can move at angles a plane or dome would not allow, and can't be shot out from underneath you. It also happens to have a total DV of 2 less than physical barrier no matter what force it is cast at.

Maybe physical barrier would be more useful if you were helping an army move across a ravine, but in most circumstances, Levitate is better. Your player is screwing himself for not spending the Karma to learn it.

The other two, I think, were adequately covered. I would only like to comment on the idea of hitting the vamp with the stun ball:

I would say he can hit the vamp precisely, unless the vamp and whatever he is interacting with occupy practically the same space (then it might be call-worthy). My thought is, he is hurting himself by using stunball like that, instead of using stunbolt. Things that could impede the caster would be things like not being able to see the point of spell origin (like it says in RAW, you can hit a target that you can't see with an area effect spell as long as you can see the point of origin for the spell - this works both ways), and not being able to hit something in the middle of a combat because they are surrounded by friendlies. It also has a higher DV, which is not as economical when the spell is used on a single target. In the case of the vamp, your player's pc got lucky. Don't let him get lucky a second time.

[Jhaiisiin]

The thing is that RAW doesn't say anything at all about targeting AOE spells, except that it's "over there." It doesn't go into the nitty gritty. I make them make the perception roll because they have to calculate on the fly precicely where to put that amount of energy to only hurt the badguys. The spellcasting test makes sure they don't over or underjuice the spell in the casting. It's an on the fly math problem, hence logic. If you don't like it, cool, don't use it in your games. We use it in ourse to keep people from willy-nilly fine-targeting AOE spells to only hit that one guard amidst a bunch of friendlies when it should be bloody difficult to figure out exactly where to center your blast to get that effect.

[fool]

now that i think about it it may have been a faq for sr3
another idea I had on the targetting issue is to allow for some scatter. possibly 1d3 m with a reduction of 1m/ take aim action. I know it always bogged down combat to have the mages sitting there trying to figure out the perfect point to place their aoe spells