calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[hermit]

Hermit--I don't think we made it clear earlier, you only use Command when remotely controlling something and even then only for specific tasks. (Driving through an obstacle course would be Command + Pilot: Ground Craft) If you are trying to subvert or take command of a drone, that's a different CF.

I am assuming the TM uses drones he stole from other people against the runner - drones he, as of this scene, posesses himself, and can command as he sees fit.

Fine, so ...

Mancer, knowing Rigger's around, gets a ping from his optic-x. Rigger's van, protected by two steel lynxes, is sighted!
Mancer orders his swarm - two lynxes with ingram WKs and a Roto with the same weapon - to attack. Before attaching his two machine sprites to the lynxes, he threads his command cf, going beyond safe limits, and then orders a full assault, directing the roto directly as to hit rigger's van from above with support from his third sprite ...

[Jaid]

and, for the sake of discussion, here's a rigger. he's a lot more rigger-specialised then i would normally do, and his gear is getting a bit expensive to keep him competitive in the meat somewhat as well (something the TM only dreams about). he's by no means a rigger/sammy, however... don't worry about that hermit. and i would really hesitate to call him a rigger/hacker as well, since his dicepools for hacking will be terrible.

perhaps most interesting is that he is going to have a very low resource pool for drones etc compared to the TM rigger above. still, if we figure ~8k more on himself, that's still ~80k worth of vehicles/drones, which is respectable.

=====================

Race: Ork (20)

Attributes (160 + 20 edge = 180)
S: 3
B: 5
A: 3(5)
R: 3
C: 2
I: 4
L: 4
W: 5

Ess: 3.85
Edg: 3

Qualities: -35
Addiction (moderate) -10
SINner (criminal) -10
Spirit Bane (plant) -10
Weak Immune System -5

Skills (148):
Pilot Groundcraft 5 (wheeled +2)
Gunnery 5 (Ballistic +2)
Pilot Aircraft 4 (vectored thrust +2)
Pilot Anthroform 4
Pilot Watercraft 2
hacking 1 (spoof +2)
computer 1 (analyse +2)
Dodge 3 (ranged +2)
Infiltration 1 (vehicle +2)

Pistols 3 (semiauto +2)
Con 1 (fast talk +2)
Etiquette 1
Perception 1 (visual +2)

Contacts: (5)
Fixer C3/L2

Resources: (47 BP)

Items of Note:
Commlink (R 5 Sys 6(5) F 6 S 5) 11,000
==> All Programs, Rating 6 (7 common, 15 hacking) 94,200
Control Rig Booster II 10,000


Cyberware
Control Rig (5,000) .5 ess
Skillwires III (6,000) .6 ess
Nanohive I (5,000) .75 ess
Skillwire Expert System (3,000) .1 ess

Bioware
Muscle Toner 2 (16,000) .4 ess

Money Remaining: 87,800 (about 18.5 BP worth)

==================================

as usual, this is just how i would probably do it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) there are some things that could be changed fairly easily, but i think this covers it pretty decently. main concerns include getting 'wires for the skillwires, lack of build/repair skills (but there's some non-rigging stuff that could be cut quite easily too, to be fair). if he was to be less 'prepare for the future' oriented, he could save quite a bit on programs as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

you will also notice i didn't give him a simsense booster... this was a conscious choice on my part. if needed, he can use edge, or depending on the GM, drugs =P

[Fortune]

If the Technomancer gets to steal his drones/vehicles (and then modify them before the encounter ... Not to mention getting free Sprites as well)) then the Rigger should get to do the same and not have to waste BP on them.

[BishopMcQ]

So the step by step breakdown would be: (anyone can feel free to call me out here if I skip a step)

IP 1 (complex)
Thread Command (Software+ Resonance) with net hits adding to Rating
Resist Fading (Willpower + Resonance) DV (# of hits used from Threading) This is Physical damage if the new Rating exceeds Resonance.

IP 2 (Simple, Simple)
Order Sprites 1 & 2 to jump into Lynxes and attack Van
Order Sprite 3 to Assist Operation (Command)

IP 3 (Complex)
Close Distance (Command + Pilot: Aircraft)

IP 4 (Complex)
Fire WK (Command + Gunnery)

Note: Because you are controlling the Device with the Command program, firing the weapon is a Complex Action. By Jumping into the drone or allowing the Pilot to function, you can fire 2 Long Bursts (Simple/Simple) Also, any actions that you take not utilizing the Command CF will be at -2 DP.

Does anyone want to take a crack at the 4 IPs for the Rigger?

[hermit]

That's what I assumed, though mancer did buy himself his gear, so I guess rigger has to, too.

Fine, let's roll for mancer then ...

IP1
Software+ Resonance: DP6+4+2=12: 09 08 07 05 04 04 03 03 02 02 01 01 -> 4 hits
Willpower + Resonance: DP 5+6=11: 11 11 05 05 04 04 03 02 02 02 01 -> 4 hits - no damage

IP2
(no rolls)

IP3
Command + Pilot: Aircraft: DP 10+4+6=20: 13 10 09 08 05 05 04 04 03 03 03 03 02 02 02 01 01 01 01 01 -> 6 hits

IP4
Command + Gunnery: DP 10+4+4+2=20: 14 11 11 10 10 05 05 05 05 05 05 05 04 04 03 03 03 02 01 01 -> 12 hits -> 23P damage on rigger's van. Armour piercing, because mancer means it.

[Jaid]

@ Jaid

Why not make the sprites rating 6? With Resonance 6, you can safely summon and compile them.

there's a difference between safe and not taking physical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

the TM in question is only throwing 11 dice to resist fading, iirc... the average rating 6 sprite is gonna be tossing around 12 dice to resist registering, which means on average 4 hits or 8 DV. that's a lot of fading to resist, and if the sprite throws out, say, 2 more hits? (which is not particularly unlikely). could be resisting 12 DV. that ain't pretty, stun or otherwise. it's got a good chance of leading to stun overflow, and physical damage is not a happy thing for our bod 1 technomancer, as i'm sure you can imagine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

That's what I assumed, though mancer did buy himself his gear, so I guess rigger has to, too.

for the purposes of chargen, it doesn't matter whether the gear was stolen or purchased. it's not how you got it, it's what you have.

of course, if we're looking at this as if they've each done, say, 4 runs since chargen and have a few extra drones now, that's fine too.

just a side note, i didn't use it but if you wanted to get the costs even lower for the mundane rigger you could also use second-hand 'ware. he has the essence to spare for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Whipstitch]

I can't find my damned rigger player's sheet for commlink, drone, gear and vehicle stats, although he only spent around 97k on 'em. I do know he just stuck with Analyze & Biofeedback as his major rating 5 programs and depended on Edge, Attack 3, Armor 3, Agent 3 plus a Rating 1 Encephalon, Rating 5 Firewalls and a Hacker teammate to protect his toys.

His attributes and 'ware look like this though:

[ Spoiler ]

Human Rigger

Attributes: 200
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 5(7)
Strength: 2
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 5
Logic: 3(4)
Willpower: 5

Spec. Attribute: 20 bps
Edge: 4

Derived Attributes:
Essence: 1.25
Meat Initiative: 12
Meat IP: 2
Hotsim Initiative: 11
Hotsim IP: 3

Positive Qualities: 10 bp
Natural Hardening

Negative Qualities: -20 bp
Addiction, Moderate: BTL
SINner
Weak Immune System

Skills: 132 bp
Gunnery: 5
Pilot Groundcraft: 5
Cracking: 4
Hardware: 4
Perception: 1
Dodge: 4
Computer: 4

Gear: 50 bp

Cyberware & Bioware: 152,500 nuyen
Move-By-Wire 1 (w/ Pistol 2, Automotive Mechanic 1 & Pilot Aircraft 1 ActiveSofts)
Control Rig
Nanohive 1 & Control Rig Booster
Encephalon 1
Math SPU
Attention Coprocessor 3
Implanted Commlink (modified Response 5, Firewall 5)
Cerebral Booster 1
Datajack

Contacts: 8 bp
1L/3C: Mechanic
1L/3C: Fixer

He's pretty mean now since he and the Hacker are a few runs in and started pooling money on owning more drones and he's got about 8 karma worth of Specializations purchased in Ballistics, Wheeled Vehicles, Visual Perception and Ranged Dodge. He'd also clearly hose the TM if they ever got in a meat confrontation. Were I making the character, I wouldn't have gotten the Move-By-Wire or Nano-System, since roughly 20k for misc. stuff, 40k for his modded shin-hyung and 40k for his steel lynx, flyspy and commlink was an extremely tight squeeze. The character makes a lot more sense when you consider he relies heavily on his Agent, Hacker friend and Edge to back up his painfully average 8 dice in Matrix combat. With 12 dice in matrix perception though he's quite capable of detecting and challenging the average hacker/drone, so that's good. It's just the expensive Agents and Specialists he struggles with. Unfortunately my players collaborate a li'l too well on resources for me to use them as good examples, since the samurai and face bought a steel lynx each at character creation as well since they're confident the Hacker, Rigger and their Agents can pool together to defend things when necessary.

[Jaid]

heh, well the mundane rigger and TM rigger i posted above were each actually put together in about 5-10 minutes each, to be honest =P

so i'm certainly not going to say they're the ultimate version of what they do... in fact, looking back, i think i missed electronic warfare for the mundane (hmmm... shuffle around some skills maybe, or something, pistols 2 (semiauto +2) should be lots i'd say) but at least since they were both designed by the same person it's not a question of one or the other being way more optimised =P

and yeah, the mundane definitely could've just ignored a lot of the CFs entirely, but unlike the TM who can use sprites for a lot of stuff, he's gonna be using his agent(s), if any, to do all kinds of stuff.

[Synner]

The core book.

Just checking if it was the baseline or a home brew, because the basic version affects all types of Combat (including Vehicular combat) and you might want to swap it out.

Yes. It'd run on the Drone Pilot. The Tm could still command the Pilot around, couldn't he?

Yes. Though that would be assuming the typical limitations on the Pilot's Rating at chargen (4). Otherwise the TM would have to buy a higher rating Pilot in play (5 costing 12500 and 6 costing 15000).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about it, but I thought I already said that I'd been wrong there.

I was posting while you posted your reply.

[hermit]

I was posting while you posted your reply.

Okay. Happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes. Though that would be assuming the typical limitations on the Pilot's Rating at chargen (4). Otherwise the TM would have to buy a higher rating Pilot in play (5 costing 12500 and 6 costing 15000).

Sure, but even a rating 4 pilot would help the mancer a bunch, I think ... as would decent analyse programs.

Just checking if it was the baseline or a home brew, because the basic version affects all types of Combat (including Vehicular combat) and you might want to swap it out.

Oh ... definitly, it should go.

[Tiger Eyes]

and, for the sake of discussion, here's a rigger. he's a lot more rigger-specialised then i would normally do, and his gear is getting a bit expensive to keep him competitive in the meat somewhat as well (something the TM only dreams about). he's by no means a rigger/sammy, however... don't worry about that hermit. and i would really hesitate to call him a rigger/hacker as well, since his dicepools for hacking will be terrible.


Commlink (R 5 Sys 6(5) F 6 S 5) 11,000
==> All Programs, Rating 6 (7 common, 15 hacking) 94,200
Control Rig Booster II 10,000

Since your system and response are 5's, your programs won't run higher than 5. Save some money now by not buying them at 6s (unless of course you want to save money later by having them at 6 when you upgrade your commlink).

Either way, the programs should be capped at 5's for the examples.

[Jaid]

Since your system and response are 5's, your programs won't run higher than 5. Save some money now by not buying them at 6s (unless of course you want to save money later by having them at 6 when you upgrade your commlink).

Either way, the programs should be capped at 5's for the examples.

i mentioned that (not explicitly) in the comments before and/or after. this is just the rigger 'planning ahead' for when he gets his hands on a rating 6 agent/IC and a rating 6 response chip =P (of course, i could always try and do something lame like running those programs from a credstick (device rating 6), but i don't want to risk orbital bovine bombardment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Tiger Eyes]

So the step by step breakdown would be: (anyone can feel free to call me out here if I skip a step)

IP 1 (complex)
Thread Command (Software+ Resonance) with net hits adding to Rating
Resist Fading (Willpower + Resonance) DV (# of hits used from Threading) This is Physical damage if the new Rating exceeds Resonance.

Pretty sure that Threading & fading don't take up an IP. So Techno should get an action this IP. From the FAQ:

Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that complex form?

The act of threading itself requires no action -- but the complex form being threaded does. Threaded complex forms must also be sustained, as noted. The -2 modifier for sustaining does not apply to use of that threaded complex form, but it does apply to all other actions the technomancer makes.

[BishopMcQ]

Tiger Eyes--Fair enough. I considered Threading to be equivalent to loading a program (complex action) or the resonant analog to casting a spell (complex action). If the FAQ says no action is required, we'll slide it back and combine what I labeled IPs 1 & 2.

[hermit]

Allright, rigger's car suffered 23P damage with AV ammo. Will we assume this as a kill?

[Mäx]

First questions that comes to my mind when i see those characters with ones in all physical attributes are:

1.How do you expect them to survive after the char-gen
and
2.How do you explain them surviving in the dystopin sixth world to beginning of the game.

[ArkonC]

First questions that comes to my mind when i see those characters with ones in all physical attributes are:

1.How do you expect them to survive after the char-gen
and
2.How do you explain them surviving in the dystopin sixth world to beginning of the game.

Brain can keep you alive where stats can't...
Have you ever played a character with 1 Body?
I have, several, in fact, and only 1 of them died...
And a body of 6 wouldn't have saved that one...

[Ryu]

I can´t find what number of drones is suddenly used by the example, I thought there only was a single Lynx. If there are multiple drones, assume I was already jumped into the primary one and issued attack orders instead of jumping in. Note the indirect fire rules from Arsenal, target aquisition is shared)

The rigger (already jumped into C&C drone):

IP 1 (Simple, Simple)
Jump-In
Aquire Target (Perception 4 + Sensor 6 + Attention Coprocessor 3); estimate +4DP

IP 2: (Complex)
Fire Weapon System (Aquisition Bonus 4 + Gunnery 4 + Spec 2 + Sensor 6 + Control Rig 2 + Smartlink 2 + Hot Sim 2) DP 22


Threading is +2, maybe +3 without drain, so the TM will do so. Support operation costs an important simple action. Controlling the drone costs a complex action, while the rigger gets to use his "body" for free.

[Synner]

Allright, rigger's car suffered 23P damage with AV ammo. Will we assume this as a kill?

Taking into account you're obviously doing a "firing range exercise" where no movement, no cover, no visibility modiifers, no recoil (all of which would have impacted the dicepools) and the target car is standing still and has no armor to speak of, then then yes that would likely be a kill. That's okay since you're "just" trying to compare dicepools. Pretty futile exercise though, modifiers come into play all the time and characters in live situations handle modifiers differently.

[hermit]

Okay, for applicable modifiers - le'ts assume the van would drive. Cover can be negated pretty much with vehicles on city streets when using a flying position, I guess (what will the vehicle find cover under, street car wires?). I'll assume mancer isn't an idiot and has recoil compensation on his vehicle's weapons to compensate for at least one long burst. I'd assume the same for rigger. Applicable Modifiers would be:

- 2 (attacker is moving)

Are there really no more modifiers for a moving target?

Anyway, Sensors 6? Like how? Maximum sensors according to arsenal is 4. Or do you use the sensor's signal for perception tests (which would be odd but balance out the maximum level 4 rule a bit).

[Synner]

Okay, for applicable modifiers - le'ts assume the van would drive. Cover can be negated pretty much with vehicles on city streets when using a flying position, I guess (what will the vehicle find cover under, street car wires?). I'll assume mancer isn't an idiot and has recoil compensation on his vehicle's weapons to compensate for at least one long burst. I'd assume the same for rigger. Applicable Modifiers would be:

I reiterate, without context, this is a firing range exercise - all good and dandy if you're just into comparing dicepools.

In a "live" scenario though, it could be argued that if the drone is high enough not to have to deal with cover modifiers at street level, the defender should have a chance of picking it up on his sensors and blowing it out of the sky first (or at least shooting at it out of a window), so maybe the only way the rotordrone could have gotten that close undetected in the first place would be by flying low over traffic which mean some cover modifiers would be in effect. As for other possible cover, without context we don't know if the driver on the vehicle could veer under an underpass, into a parking garage, or behind a passing truck, etc.

When I suggested a car chase scene, I meant a car chase scene. One where, for example, the technomancer is trying to intercept a rigger courier, whether it's on a freeway or a busy Downtown street. A scenario where the Technomancer's skills would actually be pitted against a rigger's skills in a typical combat scene, where both parties would be forced to use multiple dicepools, different skills, and having to divide their attention between multiple actions (ie. driving, sensors, and attacking/defending).

Otherwise, this example is about as useful as comparing the dominance in combat of a samurai and a dedicated sniper (assuming the sniper is waiting in ambush). The sniper gets to take aim, prepare his shot, pile on the modifiers, and then shoot at the samurai. That may be a good way of comparing sniper builds dicepools, but it won't prove a thing about their dominance in combat (since in the same situation the samurai would get the exact same results plus or minus a couple of dice).

- 2 (attacker is moving)

Plus any visibility modifiers, which are again contingent on non-existent context.

Are there really no more modifiers for a moving target?

All standard visibility, cover, and movement modifiers (for both the attacker and defender) apply plus the specific Signature modifiers on p.162. I don't believe there are signature modifiers applicable if this isn't a souped up rigging vehicle.

[hermit]

A scenario where the Technomancer's skills would actually be pitted against a rigger's skills in a typical combat scene,

Uhm, Drone attacks are what I consider a typical rigger attack, but I may be biased. Also, the drone can fly high, spot rigger's car, go low over a building's roof and then sweep the street, minimising it's own exposure to enemy fire. of course, rigger can possibly fire back, as he should expect that maneuver.

Also, I guess rigger can dodge now, can he? Which would be dodge + response?

All standard visibility, cover, and movement modifiers (for both the attacker and defender) apply plus the specific Signature modifiers on p.162. I don't believe there are signature modifiers applicable if this isn't a souped up rigging vehicle.

Would make sense if a moving target had the same DP mod, though my GM screen (english) doesn't mention that, it only mentions moving attackers.

Allright, fine, let's try a car chase, though that'spropably a lot more complicated.

[Synner]

Uhm, Drone attacks are what I consider a typical rigger attack, but I may be biased.

Drone attacks are a typical rigger attack. However, what you are describing above is the equivalent of an ambush or a firing range situation and could be compared to my sniper example above. While great to compare dicepools between different builds of attackers the "ideal conditions" of the experiment are biased towards the attacker.

Also, the drone can fly high, spot rigger's car, go low over a building's roof and then sweep the street, minimising it's own exposure to enemy fire. of course, rigger can possibly fire back, as he should expect that maneuver.

If it takes you even one IP to close range to attack then that's enough of a break for a defending rigger to detect (if he already hasn't) the incoming drone and either take evasive action (Evasive Driving), shoot back, or warn everyone else in the vehicle to shoot back. If the target/driver were Average Joe Face or the specialist Street Sam driver they'd just be plastered though so it is a valid example in its own way—it's just not much of a comparison because the rigger's going to achieve the exact same thing.

Would make sense if a moving target had the same DP mod, though my GM screen (english) doesn't mention that, it only mentions moving attackers.

Those modifiers also include, for instance, the type of burst fire attack you're using which may or may not impact the defender's dice pool. Uncompensated recoil also factors in. There may or may not be visibility modifiers at play.

Allright, fine, let's try a car chase, though that's propably a lot more complicated.

There are indeed more factors that play in and not just different dicepools and the need to spend IPs on other efforts - for instance the technomancer using sprites will have to spend actions ordering them to do certain things.

[hermit]

There are indeed more factors that play in and not just different dicepools and the need to spend IPs on other efforts - for instance the technomancer using sprites will have to spend actions ordering them to do certain things.

Sure, as Riggers have to order autopilots and agent programs around. Only that Sprites offer some very powerful options that really tip the balance against a Rigger. Sprites can, for instance, attack drones and make them have failures, something Agents cannot.

Those modifiers also include, for instance, the type of burst fire attack you're using which may or may not impact the defender's dice pool. Uncompensated recoil also factors in. There may or may not be visibility modifiers at play

For the above mentioned example, I've assumed at least an effective RC of 5 on the White Knight, because RC on vehicle-mounted weapons is quite easy.

If it takes you even one IP to close range to attack then that's enough of a break for a defending rigger to detect (if he already hasn't the incoming drone) and either take evasive action (Evasive Driving), shoot back, or warn everyone else in the vehicle to shoot back.

Of course he can, the drone was flying hige for some time. He can even expect that type of maneuver and use that IP to activate his gun turret, greeting the drone with a hail of bullets the TM will have to evade. After all, it's a pretty obvious attacl maneuver by an obviously armed drone.

If the target/driver were Average Joe Face or the specialist Street Sam driver they'd just be plastered though so it is a valid example in its own way—it's just not much of a comparison because the rigger's going to achieve the exact same thing.

Well, the driver character will propably have decent sensors in his vehicle (now, do you use Sensors' signal or the Arsenal Sensor level for tests?) and an autosoft that scans the environment for him running on the vehicle's autopilot, so he should get a warning or something, shouldn't he? Though admittedly, he will suck more than either rigger or mancer in that respect. Joe Average propably won't, but then again, Joe Average isn't a Shadowrunner.