calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[hermit]

For Full Defense, you are Rolling Dodge+Command CF+Support Operation Service+Threading+Hot Sim bonus, so about 20 dice is appropiate.

Forgot the skill.

Actually I believe he would need to be holding an action.

Well, he has nothing to do on IP2, so ... I guess that counts as holding.

IP1
Software+ Resonance: DP6+4+2=12: 09 08 07 05 04 04 03 03 02 02 01 01 -> 4 hits
Willpower + Resonance: DP 5+6=11: 11 11 05 05 04 04 03 02 02 02 01 -> 4 hits - no damage

IP2
(no rolls)

Or does it?

You are correct that Command device is not a legal interrupt action and this was a design decision - favoring full immersion "jumping in" over AR remote control. This is not to say a drone's Pilot can't do Dodge, its just that the technomancer or rigger Controlling it can't.

Okay, that makes sense (and gives a little boost to jumping in, though ... well, nowhere near what it used to be). So the drone pilot would have to dodge using it's autopilot + autosoft + sprite?

[Synner]

Okay, that makes sense (and gives a little boost to jumping in, though ... well, nowhere near what it used to be). So the drone pilot would have to dodge using it's autopilot + autosoft + sprite?

It would be Pilot + Defense Autosoft or alternately Sprite + Defense Autosoft. I'm don't believe there's anything the sprite can do to reactively help the drone Pilot under the rules.

[Jaid]

Okay, that makes sense (and gives a little boost to jumping in, though ... well, nowhere near what it used to be). So the drone pilot would have to dodge using it's autopilot + autosoft + sprite?

just to clear things up, hermit...

it's not response + command + etc... command *replaces* response (or rather it replaces reaction, which is replaced by response for jumped-in drivers). so your dice pool for that was a little off. likewise (and the reason i quoted the above) it's not drone autopilot + autosoft + sprite. the sprite *replaces* the drone pilot. as such, it would be either drone pilot (+defense autosoft for full dodge) or sprite rating (+autosoft for full dodge) bearing in mind that the sprite cannot use a normal autosoft and a drone cannot use a sprite autosoft.

which is why when people say that machine sprites are awesome for piloting drones in combat, i look at them funny... to me, you're looking at rating 9 at least before i can agree with that (you need at least 3 between maneuver, targeting, defense, and clearsight imo... heaven forbid you should need more than 1 type of targeting autosoft for your weapon of choice [ares alpha anyone?] or if you should also need it to perform EW type actions.)

so yeah, unless you allow multiple pilots/sprites/riggers for one vehicle, i'm not impressed with sprites as far as drone controlling. don't get me wrong, the whole 'pick an autosoft' bit is awesome, but it's awesome because you can effectively give it almost any skill you could possibly imagine (of particular interest to the TM rigger should be the fact that there are canon engineering autosofts now, in that aircraft repair drone in arsenal)

[Jaid]

It would be Pilot + Defense Autosoft. I'm don't believe there's anything the sprite can do to reactively help the drone Pilot under the rules.

arguably, the sprite could use the diagnostics power.

[Synner]

arguably, the sprite could use the diagnostics power.

Though not reactively, it would have to be a) in the drone node (and not with the technomancer), b) it would have to be holding an action or c) it would have to have been told to maintain the Diagnostics power previously which it hadn't as far as I can tell in this scenario. Furthermore this is assuming the sprite is aiding the drone's Pilot, if it's in control of the drone rather than a Pilot then that the Diagnostics power is not an option since it isn't intended to aid the sprite itself.

[Ryu]

which is why when people say that machine sprites are awesome for piloting drones in combat, i look at them funny... to me, you're looking at rating 9 at least before i can agree with that (you need at least 3 between maneuver, targeting, defense, and clearsight imo... heaven forbid you should need more than 1 type of targeting autosoft for your weapon of choice [ares alpha anyone?] or if you should also need it to perform EW type actions.)

so yeah, unless you allow multiple pilots/sprites/riggers for one vehicle, i'm not impressed with sprites as far as drone controlling. don't get me wrong, the whole 'pick an autosoft' bit is awesome, but it's awesome because you can effectively give it almost any skill you could possibly imagine (of particular interest to the TM rigger should be the fact that there are canon engineering autosofts now, in that aircraft repair drone in arsenal)

Yes.

Sprites are best used to provide matrix security for the drone network, lowering the overall IC load. They can also make good spy drone pilots, especially since you can get "Pilot" 5 + Clearsight 5 to run on an off-the-rack Microskimmer, tasked to monitor the sensors (Perception Pool of 11 for 1k¥). And things like Remote Demolitions (Disarm) tests are way more comfortable with a Command of 12 going in. But straight-out combat rigging goes to the rigger. If you need to hold an action to dodge, you are out in rigger combat. Its sufficient that you need one IP for general piloting (or face a crash test).

[Eyeless Blond]

hermit:

IP 2 (Simple, Simple)
Order Sprites 1 & 2 to jump into Lynxes and attack Van
Order Sprite 3 to Assist Operation (Command)

You're not holding an action to dodge with Command; you're ordering sprites around. Ryu basically caught you with your pants down, which means you only get Reaction(Response) to dodge, then Body+Armor to soak.

Oh, wait, the sprite/pilot's in control, as mentioned above. N/m that last sentence.

Question: *can* you let the pilot do some things, while you do others in the same drone? Let the Pilot do maneuvering, for example, while you spend your actions on Gunnery?

[Synner]

My standard reply is that if you've told your sprite to seize control it's not going to let go and let the Pilot take over for an action just because it's convenient for you. That said, I've allowed players to give more complex commands to a drone Pilot with a sprite inside the node (as in "support and assist the drone Pilot's actions and take control if necessary to preserve the drone").

[hermit]

In the given scenario, the diagnostics power is the obvious choice for the two lynxes, as it just adds boni to the pilot, so far as I understand.

[Synner]

In the given scenario, the diagnostics power is the obvious choice for the two lynxes, as it just adds boni to the pilot, so far as I understand.

Note that is only possible if the machine sprites (in the drones) are not Piloting. Furthermore, Diagnostics still requires a roll (sprite rating x2 and each hit adds 1 die to the Pilot's dice pool) and a task would have had to be expended before the scene for the sprite to be maintaining Diagnostics (as a continuing task) and for it to come into play in a defense roll.

This constant adjustment is another example of why I dislike this playtesting scenario, but it does go to show a technomancer is highly dependent on having his ducks all set up in a row before getting involved in the action. If he doesn't have everything pre-planned and all the deck stacked in his favor (every single time) he's screwed.

[hermit]

Point taken. If he does, though, he is pretty much unstoppable by even an advanced rigger character. Please note that this is a starter, zero Karma, oh-so-puny technomancer character, not one who has some 50 KArma under his belt.

But okay, let's try a different scenario. Say, a car race? Both riger and mancer have a standard-isse EC Westwind, mancer again has his 3 sprites and can thread beforehand?

Then we can try a random street race WITHOUT mancer being able to thread himself into godlikeness, see how that compares?

[Synner]

Point taken. If he does, though, he is pretty much unstoppable by even an advanced rigger character. Please note that this is a starter, zero Karma, oh-so-puny technomancer character, not one who has some 50 KArma under his belt.

I beg to disagree, I think they're pretty evenly match even then - even the Diagnostics power of the machine sprites is only going to change the drones' dice pool by 2 dice on average.

I'm getting the impression you haven't played technomancers before because if you had you would know that 50 karma and even a couple of Submersions won't change the equation much.

But okay, let's try a different scenario. Say, a car race? Both riger and mancer have a standard-isse EC Westwind, mancer again has his 3 sprites and can thread beforehand?

Cool, as long as the rigger can have his 3 Rating 6 agents too.

[hermit]

I beg to disagree, I think they're pretty evenly match even then - even the Diagnostics power of the machine sprites is only going to change the drones' dice pool by 2 dice on average. I'm getting the impression you haven't played technomancers before because if you had you would know that 50 karma and even a couple of Submersions won't change the equation much.

Yes, I haven't played them much. And please also mind threading (if using the command CF). But yeah, when jumped in, he's on his own, pretty mich. Though a Resonance increase would significantly push the mancer. And that doesn't include allt he pimping they'll propably see in Emergence.

Cool, as long as the rigger can have his 3 Rating 6 agents too.

Rating 4, just like the mancer has to live with starter character restrictions, but sure, he can. I don't really see how they will be useful in a race that should be (for starters) purely about machine control, something you say riggers outclass technomancers in.

[ornot]

meh.

Probably just my fabled bad luck with the dice, but I remember horribly crippling my out of the box TM compiling rating 3 sprites. I don't have the stats on hand, but the build was fairly balanced around TM related skills and powers.

At least with a rigger your dice pool bonus is inherent, and not dependent on a few lucky or not so lucky rolls to get sprites and thread their CFs.

I found TMs to be rather screwed since in order to get decent persona stats they need to sink a lot of BPs into attributes, while the rigger/hacker can just buy the gear for a lot less.

[Synner]

Rating 4, just like the mancer has to live with starter character restrictions, but sure, he can. I don't really see how they will be useful in a race that should be (for starters) purely about machine control, something you say riggers outclass technomancers in.

Actually I said nothing of the sort. I said that a technomancer rigger build would beat a rigger by a minimal difference. I also get the impression that you're missing the point with the whole technomancer/rigger thing. The point is that they're two different types of rigger. They do the same thing in different ways and with different advantages and disadvantages and both generally bury the "mundane" opposition. Sort of like the way Shamans and Hermetics operated in previous editions and not unlike how a Face adept and face magician are two different types of augmented face characters.

Why would they be useful? Because they can attack the opponent's car/defend yours during the race.

For the record, the race is yet another bad playtest scenario simply because it amounts to a dice pool comparison - and has just been shown the comparative advantages and disadvantages of both types of riggers are not clear cut (ie. dicepools are useless when the circumstances or the planning doesn't allow for their use).

If you want a proper challenge then make it a chase scene through a heavy downtown traffic with a TM trying to intercept the fleeing rigger with any and all the assets at his disposal (and then run it the other way round).

[hermit]

Since riggers heavily depend on their attributes, buyable gear is less of an isse to them (and except for CFs, mancers can buy stuff like drones too, at the same cost). So yes, Riggers can adance more quickly and will hit their limit very soon, too. Little room for development there compared to the mancer rigger.

For the record, the race is another bad playtest scenario simply because it amounts to a dice pool comparison - and has just been shown the comparative advantages and disadvantages of both types of rigger characters are not clear cut (ie. dicepools are useless when the circumstances or the planning doesn't allow for their use).

I varied between a race where the TM could plan ahead and one where he couldn't, to illustrate the difference there (and see what impact that'd have). But okay, let's try for the complicated scene then, though I'd like to have a few things clarified then, like how average npc vehicles are protected against hacking, whetehr or not they run on autopilot, manual or VR control, whether police drones/patrols are present, whether or not there are hackable pop-up barriers the mancer can use to stop the Rigger ...

I also get the impression that you're missing the point with the whole technomancer/rigger thing. The point is that they're two different types of rigger. They do the same thing in different ways and with different advantages and disadvantages and both generally bury the "mundane" opposition. Sort of like the way Shamans and Hermetics operated in previous editions

If back in the day only Hermetics were allowed to initiate (because the shaman would have such insane boni through their totem and insta-summon-spirits, whereas the hermetic would have to expend lots of time and money on every spirit), then that would be a viable comparison.

To sum it up: My peeves with how Riggers are handled in SR4 are:
- Riggers can hardly advance. Their skills and programs are all capped at 6, 76 if you count bought aptitude edges. To mancers, there is no limit.
- Mancers can boost their program ratings to insane levels of 10 and (with some initiations) even higher, and can use sprites for even more DP boni. Granted, those are dependent on luck, but a +4 would be minimum. Riggers get a fixed and not so impressive bonus they can never increase.
- With Sprites and Threading, a single Rigger cannot ever hope to stop a Technomancer with some time to prepare himself.
- Since mancers can also use agents, drones and have them run programs and add to them via diagnosing sprites, better equipment won't really help Riggers anyway.

[Ryu]

- Diagnostics may not be used on vehicles. See The Word, in the description of the power.

- Command is not even close to being an alternative for combat. One IP less due to piloting requirements, no dodge without holding an action, complex action for sensor tests, not being able to command other drones while controlling the primary one... and spending time on sp

- Sprites are limited by their autosoft collection, Pilots are more numerous and more versatile.


So where are we? The TM will ultimately have a few more dice if he uses a generally inferior way of piloting. I say ultimately because the BP for Resonance, Tasking Group and CFs have to come from somewhere. Rating 5 registered sprite-services are not easy to get for your current build, and a riggers time should be spend in the workshop. Then there is the whole business with karma costs for improving mental stats, CFs, resonance, Submersion...

[Synner]

If back in the day only Hermetics were allowed to initiate (because the shaman would have such insane boni through their totem and insta-summon-spirits, whereas the hermetic would have to expend lots of time and money on every spirit), then that would be a viable comparison.

Since you aren't particularly familiar with the technomancer rules I'm going to assume you're not factoring in the distinction (and costs associated) between Submerging and raising Resonance. Not only is Submersion karma intensive but all it adds is a Submersion grade and an Echo. Given the current batch of Echoes, the only way this is going to significantly affect the technomancer's dicepools is by subsequently raising Resonance (and since Resonance tends to start high anyway, that's pretty expensive). Furthermore given the lower skill and Att base the technomancer has if he starts raising skills, Atts, or buying CFs that is karma sunk into stuff that won't go into either Submersion or Resonance increases. Just look at your character on page 4.

To sum it up: My peeves with how Riggers are handled in SR4 are:
- Riggers can hardly advance. Their skills and programs are all capped at 6, 76 if you count bought aptitude edges. To mancers, there is no limit.

Seriously? A well-rounded rigger skill-wise won't start at 6 (though he might have a couple of specializations), he'll start at 4 or 5 in several skills and he'll have a varied skill base that will cover pretty much everything he needs with ample room for growth. The technomancer development is open-ended (like a magician's) in theory. In practice, not so much. A starting technomancer has so many areas to catch up on that he's an even bigger karma sink than a magician.

I've been GMing a few characters for 3 years straight now and only one has saved up the karma to increase a skill from 5 to 6. There's a lot of griping about the hard caps in general, but they rarely come into play unless you start with a skill at 6 in the first place.

- Mancers can boost their program ratings to insane levels of 10 and (with some initiations) even higher, and can use sprites for even more DP boni. Granted, those are dependent on luck, but a +4 would be minimum. Riggers get a fixed and not so impressive bonus they can never increase.

It's not just dependent on luck, there is most definitely a downside in Fading particularly at the ratings you're talking about. High rating complex forms are less impressive when you have to subtract damage modifiers from your dice pool.

As for the Diagnosis power, the sprites the technomancer you posted can call are going to be granting all of +2 dice on average.

- With Sprites and Threading, a single Rigger cannot ever hope to stop a Technomancer with some time to prepare himself.

Not true. By the same logic if the rigger has time to prepare he can give a technomancer a run for his money. Scores of agents Agents will keep the technomancer's sprites and agents busy and the rigger can have more of those than the technomancer will have sprites (well, he can until Unwired comes out). For every sprite the technomancer has the rigger can match it with a cracked agent. After a certain point it becomes irrelevant and simply a matter of escalation (currently, though not for long).

- Since mancers can also use agents, drones and have them run programs and add to them via diagnosing sprites, better equipment won't really help Riggers anyway.

And riggers can have cyber and nano-implants that will cripple a technomancer's Resonance if he goes that way.
The technomancer can try to compete with a rigger in Matrix Atts, but as your character on p. 4 shows a rigger with 20000Y will beat him stat for stat. So the advantages that technomancers have is granted by diagnosing sprites (typically 2, possibly 3 dice to the technomancer's dicepool) and Threading (which is balanced out by Fading at the ratings you're talking about).

[hermit]

Re Threading and fading: My assumed minimum would be +2, increasing a CF to 7 or 8, depending on how much BP you poured into Resonance at chargen. Fading isn't that much of an issue there, even with sucky attributes (our sample had willpower 3, so he'd have to soak 2P with his 9 to 10 dice - perfectly possible if your dice don't hate you). Add to that +2 from a diagnosing sprite, and you have my minimum 4.

Re new stuff: Riggers can have two kinds of enhancments not available at chargen - the VR booster and the rigger booster nanites. Sadly, Those aren't compatible, so it's either or. But yes, this is the one thing a Technomancer has to achive differently: by Submerging once or by using sprite services adn threading for those extra dice.

Re Cracked Agents: Why can't a Technomancer have Legions of Agents either (until Unwired)? Buy one, crack it, Replicate, load it with a bought Attack program and use them for grunt duty, running them on his hardware commlink he needs to not stand out too much anyway? My point being: A Technomancer has access to all the stuff a Rigger has, minus cyberware, AND on top of that sprites and threading.

Re Submerging: Yes, I did assume the Technomancer would use it's 50 Karma for submerging, which would propably gain him (by subsequently raising Resonance) more net dice (by being able to thread better) than increasing skills alone. With 50 Karma, that would be +2 Resonance (to 7, costing 13 + 15 + 18 = 46 Karma) for our sample Technomancer.

[Aaron]

- Diagnostics may not be used on vehicles. See The Word, in the description of the power.

Mwr? It appears that the sprite power in question works on devices, of which a vehicle is one, unless the vehicle is really really old.

- Command is not even close to being an alternative for combat.

I suspect that what you mean to say is that Command is not even close to being a good alternative to combat. And there might be an implicit "in my opinion" in there, too.

- Sprites are limited by their autosoft collection, Pilots are more numerous and more versatile.

Could you elaborate on this, please? I, for one, am not sure what you're getting at.

[Nightwalker450]

- Sprites are limited by their autosoft collection, Pilots are more numerous and more versatile.

Could you elaborate on this, please? I, for one, am not sure what you're getting at.

Sprites only get one autosoft for every 3 ratings.
So rating 3, gets you maneuver...
Rating 6 you can add a weapon soft to that...
Rating 9, you can now have a defense autosoft as well...
rating 12, you can get clearsight so that they can scout...
Rating 15, Electronic warfare to use jammers...
Rating 18, If you have a secondary weapon to use...

Technomancer is long since dead, since they take number of hits x 2 for fading. So you'll rarely see a technomancer with higher than a rating 6 sprite, so it can drive and shoot, but can't dodge.

[Larme]

I must confess I have lost sight of the purpose of this discussion. We're debating whether a specific technomancer, with a specific amount of karma, spent in specific ways, will be good enough that he can be termed... better than a non Awakened rigger? WHY??? How is this question relevant to anything? Given lots of karma, Awakened people will always be able to outclass cybered people at something. That's the nature of Awakened characters. It has always been like that. It is not grounds for complaint.

And in the end, this is nothing more than a question of definition. You can put out numbers all you want. But numbers are meaningless out of context. You can debate what the numbers mean, but in the end, the only concrete meaning they have is their mathematical definition. Their qualitative definition, whether they are good numbers or bad numbers, is pure, unmitigated, unarguable opinion. Hermit doesn't like the numbers that a technomancer can get. But he can't prove that they're bad. He can only prove how he feels about them. He can prove that in situation x, a technomancer always wins versus a particular non-technomancer, but the idea that such a thing is bad is hermit's own opinion. Other people see the same situation and think that it's good. The basis for thinking whether it's good or bad is not scientific, it's not rational. It is based on a feeling of like or dislike. THAT IS ALL.

Therefore, THIS DEBATE IS UNRESOLVABLE. Whether you like the numbers or not, it is based on personal preference, based on an opinion of how the numbers "should" look that is absolutely ineffable. Which makes this entire debate futile, and makes me really wish that it would end. Now.

[hermit]

Now, this debate was split off another where I argued that the Rigger, as a character specialising in VR and AR control of devices, is not a viable character concept anymore because he can never hope to win against a technomancer character, even one of significantly less Karma, thanks to the restrictive hardcaps on attributes and programs. Now, lots of people came down on me and told me that just wasn't so, that Riggers still make sense as characters and do have a chance against a Technomancer character. People demanded proof, this debate ensued.

I never said it's universally good or bad (though I made no attempt to pretend I liked that, because I don't).

[Synner]

Re Threading and fading: My assumed minimum would be +2, increasing a CF to 7 or 8, depending on how much BP you poured into Resonance at chargen. Fading isn't that much of an issue there, even with sucky attributes (our sample had willpower 3, so he'd have to soak 2P with his 9 to 10 dice - perfectly possible if your dice don't hate you). Add to that +2 from a diagnosing sprite, and you have my minimum 4.

Neither of those results are fixed or guaranteed values. They fluctute and can be better or worse. Furthermore they're contingent on using Command to rig rather than jumping in - which all things being equal has been shown automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Once a technomancer jumps in he has a number of advantages and a different set of disadvantages.

Re new stuff: Riggers can have two kinds of enhancments not available at chargen - the VR booster and the rigger booster nanites. Sadly, Those aren't compatible, so it's either or. But yes, this is the one thing a Technomancer has to achive differently: by Submerging once or by using sprite services and threading for those extra dice.

The difference being, in a realistic situation, that riggers can count on those fixed modifiers while technomancers will not only have to often waste time calling on those sprite tasks (unless you don't mind burning those registered sprite tasks), but the results he gets are variable.

Re Cracked Agents: Why can't a Technomancer have Legions of Agents either (until Unwired)? Buy one, crack it, Replicate, load it with a bought Attack program and use them for grunt duty, running them on his hardware commlink he needs to not stand out too much anyway? My point being: A Technomancer has access to all the stuff a Rigger has, minus cyberware, AND on top of that sprites and threading.

The point is that all that stuff takes time, resources, and nuyen. Assuming the technomancer has infinite amounts of any of those, particularly when they're gimped in all of them out of the box makes no sense because the rigger could be doing the exact same thing.

Yes, your technomancer could steal the drones, but then so could the rigger. Yes, your technomancer could crack the programs and get a commlink to run them on, but so could the rigger and so on and so on. The issue isn't that the technomancer can't do it, it's that if he is able to it in your game, then so is the rigger effectively cancelling that mechancial advantage out - what I'm getting at is that if that is the case then the rigger actually has a head start.

The problem with this argument is that if you assign arbitrary conditions to a situation you can't have a balanced comparison with a credible baseline for the characters being compared.

Re Submerging: Yes, I did assume the Technomancer would use it's 50 Karma for submerging, which would propably gain him (by subsequently raising Resonance) more net dice (by being able to thread better) than increasing skills alone. With 50 Karma, that would be +2 Resonance (to 7, costing 13 + 15 + 18 = 46 Karma) for our sample Technomancer.

You math is off. All you've done for 50 karma is 2 initiate grades and 1 Resonance (to 6 not 7). To raise it to 7 you now need to expend a further 21 karma (for a total of 67). Now apply 67 karma to the riggers posted in this thread and you will see several DPs rising.

[hermit]

Yes, your technomancer could steal the drones, but then so could the rigger. Yes, your technomancer could crack the programs and get a commlink to run them on, but so could the rigger and so on and so on. The issue isn't that the technomancer can't do it, it's that if he is able to it in your game, then so is the rigger effectively cancelling that mechancial advantage out - what I'm getting at is that if that is the case then the rigger actually has a head start.

And what I'm getting at is that the TM has all his boni on top of being able to have the same stuff a rigger has. Rigger has agents, TM has agents and sprites. Rigger has vehicles, technomancer has vehicles with diagnosing sprites. Rigger has programs (max. level 6), Technomancer has CFs (max. level Resonance*2) and programs for menial tasks. Apart from a bit more sgear on startup, I don't see the Rigger's head start (except being able to work as another character type too, asay streetsam, but that won't help him much when rigging). Also, since TMs are being paid the same as riggers, usually, they have the exact same amount of nuyen to spend on the exact same stuff after chargen, so I don't really see them gimped regarding money.

You math is off. All you've done for 50 karma is 2 initiate grades and 1 Resonance (to 6 not 7). To raise it to 7 you now need to expend a further 21 karma (for a total of 67). Now apply 67 karma to the riggers posted in this thread and you will see several DPs rising.

Yes, my apologies. But those skills and attributes wouldn't be as central as Resonance, nor as effective as resonance 7, whcih effectively would allow the mancer to gain rating 7 programs, something riggers just can never have.

The difference being, in a realistic situation, that riggers can count on those fixed modifiers while technomancers will not only have to often waste time calling on those sprite tasks (unless you don't mind burning those registered sprite tasks), but the results he gets are variable.

So the basic decision between rigger and rigggermancer would be whether you want to be comparatively low-powered, but that dependably, or gamble a bit, but on average have better ratings, if you take some care to prepare yourself?