calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[DMK]

I've found this thread quite fascinating, so I thought I'd join in. Here's my take on a starting Rigger. This guy is probably going to be a backup character for my current game. (Probably backup #2. We don't have a Magician right now, so he'll be backup #1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) )

One thing to note: I don't own Augmentation, so no goodies from there.

Main sheet:

[ Spoiler ]

Name: "Crash" Carson

Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 2
Intuition 5
Logic 4(6)
Willpower 5

Initiative: 8
Initiative(Cold Sim): 10
Initiative(Hot Sim): 11
Initiative Passes: 1
Initiative Passes(Cold Sim): 2
Initiative Passes(Hot Sim): 2
Essence 5.45
Edge 2

Skills:
Electronics Group 3
Mechanics Group 2
Cracking Group 4
Pilot GroundCraft(Wheeled) 5(+2)
Gunnery(Ballistics) 5(+2)
Pilot Aircraft 3
Negotiation 1
Perception 4
Armorer 1
Dodge(Ranged): 1(+2)

Free Knowledge/Language Skill Points = (Intuition + Logic) x 3 = 27
Professional: Engineering(Mechanical) 6(+2)
Security Design(Matrix): 3(+2)
Street: Seattle Gangs: 3
Security Companies: 3
Academic: Chemistry: 3
Seattle Area Traffic Laws: 3
Interests: Sports(Nascar): 3(+2)

Negative Qualities:
Severe Allergy to Sunlight [-20]
Codeblock: Data Search [-5]
Scorched [-10]

Contacts
"Grease" Johnson, Owner/Operator Johnson Custom Automotive (L4/C3)
Artie Kaprinsky, Fixer (L4/C4)

Gear: [50BP]
-Cyberwear & Bioware
-Control Rig 10000 0.2C
-Datajack 500 0.1C
-Skinlink 50
-Cerebral Booster 2 20000 0.4B
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Cyber & Bio 'ware) 30550

Tools:
-Mechanics Shop 5000
-Mechanics Kit 500
-Armorer Kit 500
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Tools) 6000

Weapons
-Ares Predator 4 350
-Skinlink 50
-9 Spare Clips 45
-300 Regular Ammo 600
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Weapons) 1045

Armor
-Armor Clothing 500

Commlink
-Meta Link Chasis 100
-Firewall Rating 6 3000
-System Rating 6 3000
-Response Rating 5 4000
-Signal Rating 5 1000
-HotSim SimModule 250
-Skinlink 50
-Analyze Rating 6(5) 600
-Browse Rating 6(5) 600
-Command Rating 6(5) 600
-Edit Rating 6(5) 600
-Scan Rating 6(5) 600
-Encrypt Rating 6(5) 600
-Armor Rating 5 5000
-Attack Rating 5 5000
-Biofeedback Filter 6(5) 6000
-ECCM Rating 5 5000
-Exploit Rating 5 5000
-Spoof Rating 5 5000
-Stealth Rating 5 5000
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Commlink) 51000

Misc
-Glasses 25
-Skinlink 50
-Smartlink 500
-Low-Light 100
-Flare Compensation 50
-Vision Magnification 100
-Earbuds 10
-Skinlink 50
-Audio Enhancement 3 300
-Select Sound Filter 3 600
-Fake SIN Rating 4 4000
-Fake License Rating 4 400
-1 Month Medium Lifestyle 5000
-DocWagon Basic Contract 5000
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Misc) 16185

Main Vehicle:

[ Spoiler ]

Rover 2068
Handling Accel Speed Pilot Body Armor Sensor
+2/+4 26/48 140 3 13 10 6
(On/Off road)

-Rover 2068 25000
-4 Smart Tires 10000
-Morphing License Plate 1000
-Pilot Rating 3 3000
-Firewall Rating 6 3000
-System Rating 6 3000
-Response Rating 5 4000
-Signal Rating 5 1000
-Analyze Rating 6(5) 600
-ECCM Rating 6(5) 6000
-Stealth Rating 6(5) 6000
-Spoof Chip 500
-Complete Skinlink 5000 1
-ECM Rating 6 6000 1
-Engine Customization: Speed 9100 2
-Turbocharger x2 19110 2
-Rigger Adaptation 2500 1
-Regular Weapon Mount 1500 1
-Internal Visibility 1000 2
-Flexible Flexibility 2000 1
-Remote Control 500
-Ingram White Knight LMG 2000
-Smartgun System 400
-1000 rounds regular ammo 2000
-Camera R6 (x2) 1200
-Low-light 200
-Thermoscopic 200
-Vison Mag 200
-Vision Enhancement 3 600
-Imagelink 50
-Smartlink 1000
-Flare Compensation 100
-Laser Range Finder R6(x2) 1200
-Motion Sensor R6 (x2) 600
-Radar R6 1200
-Atmosphere Sensor R3 75
-------------------------------------
Sub-total (Main Vehicle) 120745

Steel Lynx Drone

[ Spoiler ]

Handling Accel Speed Pilot Body Armor Sensor
+0 15/40 120 3 4 9 6

Steel Lynx Drone 5000
-Ingram White Knight LMG 2000
-Smartgun System 400
-Camera R6 1200
-Low-light 100
-Thermoscopic 100
-Vison Mag 100
-Vision Enhancement 3 300
-Imagelink 25
-Smartlink 500
-Flare Compensation 50
-Laser Range Finder R6 600
-Motion Sensor R6 300
-Radar R6 1200
--------------------------------------
Sub-Total (Steel Lynx) 10375

C-D Dalmation Drone

[ Spoiler ]

Cyberspace Designs Dalmation 2200
-Clearsight 3 1500
-Response Rating 5 4000
-Camera R6 1200
-Low-light 100
-Thermoscopic 100
-Vison Mag 100
-Vision Enhancement 3 300
-Imagelink 25
-Flare Compensation 50
-Laser Range Finder R6 600
-Motion Sensor R6 300
-Radar R6 1200
--------------------------------------
Sub-Total (Doberman) 13175

Man, I hate making high nuyen characters in some ways. Takes a long time to work out how you spent the money... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Ryu]

Mwr? It appears that the sprite power in question works on devices, of which a vehicle is one, unless the vehicle is really really old.

I suspect that what you mean to say is that Command is not even close to being a good alternative to combat. And there might be an implicit "in my opinion" in there, too.

Could you elaborate on this, please? I, for one, am not sure what you're getting at.

Vehicles are explicitly forbidden in the german version of the Diagnostic rules. Make of that what you will, we are far away from errata 1.5 in german last I knew.

I gave reasons why Commanding is generally inferior, and I think those are pretty hard limits.

The thing on Sprite limits was already answered for me. My pilots also use to have some matrix softs running, like Analyse and ECCM.

[Jaid]

Therefore, THIS DEBATE IS UNRESOLVABLE. Whether you like the numbers or not, it is based on personal preference, based on an opinion of how the numbers "should" look that is absolutely ineffable. Which makes this entire debate futile, and makes me really wish that it would end. Now.

actually, had you read the whole thing, you would be aware that a number of misconceptions have been cleared up in this thread. it is entirely possible to resolve this, because hermit is not being an unreasonable idiot... he's actually listening to the points that are raised, he's examining the data, and his opinion *has* changed. if people's misunderstandings about how the rigging/vehicle rules work (and technomancer rules too, i suppose) then this debate has served a purpose. it is not futile, because it is accomplishing useful things.

Furthermore they're contingent on using Command to rig rather than jumping in - which all things being equal has been shown automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Once a technomancer jumps in he has a number of advantages and a different set of disadvantages.

i do feel it is important to note here that using command *also* has advantages. sure, full dodge is not a possibility, but the TM's basic dodge pool (which, in this case, will be command rating, and not dodge) is going to be pretty impressive if he has time to prepare and use sprites. fading can be mitigated with a good machine sprite and a first aid autosoft, to some extent. the main problem is that the TM won't be able to have these up all the time; when he's ready, he'll be scary as can be. when he's not ready, he's not *as* impressive as the rigger, but he's still not exactly horribly screwed either.

You math is off. All you've done for 50 karma is 2 initiate grades and 1 Resonance (to 6 not 7). To raise it to 7 you now need to expend a further 21 karma (for a total of 67). Now apply 67 karma to the riggers posted in this thread and you will see several DPs rising.

just a nitpick, but the sample TM i provided actually has resonance 6 to start... or is there a different TM that we're using? (not arguing the point, really... pretty much just the details. i would also argue the TM should be boosting his command CF alongside his resonance if he wants to be purely a TM rigger and not expand into other areas, which would increase the command-using TM's dicepool as well)

[Larme]

Now, this debate was split off another where I argued that the Rigger, as a character specialising in VR and AR control of devices, is not a viable character concept anymore because he can never hope to win against a technomancer character, even one of significantly less Karma, thanks to the restrictive hardcaps on attributes and programs. Now, lots of people came down on me and told me that just wasn't so, that Riggers still make sense as characters and do have a chance against a Technomancer character. People demanded proof, this debate ensued.

This is also an unresolvable question. What does "viable character" mean? You might define viable character as able to win always against everyone, others might define viable as good enough to be playable and fun. The answer to this question is not numbers-based, it only depends on how you want to define your terms, and overall on how you want to play. You CAN'T prove whether a character type is viable, unless there is a commonly accepted definition of viable, which there never will be in this kind of contentious topic. Though there are certainly facts being flung back and forth, the facts cannot amount to proof. Nobody can win. Ergo, kafkaesque exercise in futility.

actually, had you read the whole thing, you would be aware that a number of misconceptions have been cleared up in this thread. it is entirely possible to resolve this, because hermit is not being an unreasonable idiot... he's actually listening to the points that are raised, he's examining the data, and his opinion *has* changed. if people's misunderstandings about how the rigging/vehicle rules work (and technomancer rules too, i suppose) then this debate has served a purpose. it is not futile, because it is accomplishing useful things.

That's a fair point. Insofar as you're trying to change someone's mind, any debate can be deemed useful. But as to coming to a correct answer, when there isn't one, it can't be done. There is no right answer here because you're dealing with a fluid problem defined by fluid standards. The best you can hope for is that people will change their minds, but even though hermit may have conceded some points, that really doesn't mean the thread is getting anywhere, does it? His position is still essentially the same after 8 pages, isn't it time to just shake hands and agree to disagree?

[Jaid]

That's a fair point. Insofar as you're trying to change someone's mind, any debate can be deemed useful. But as to coming to a correct answer, when there isn't one, it can't be done. There is no right answer here because you're dealing with a fluid problem defined by fluid standards. The best you can hope for is that people will change their minds, but even though hermit may have conceded some points, that really doesn't mean the thread is getting anywhere, does it? His position is still essentially the same after 8 pages, isn't it time to just shake hands and agree to disagree?

no, because like i said, there's a lot of stuff that's coming out that hermit didn't know, and he *likes* riggers to begin with, and has actually read through the rules on them. heck, even i've learned a thing or two (hadn't considered that it wouldn't be possible to interrupt full dodge when using command program, for example), and i consider myself to know the rules on this area fairly well.

as such, i do think that this thread serves a purpose. if nothing else, hermit doesn't go around bashing riggers in every tangentially related thread anymore, because there is a place *here* to discuss that sort of thing, without sidetracking any other threads.

certainly, as the OP, i don't feel that this thread is going nowhere; you want to see a discussion that goes nowhere, trying the cain challenge threads. this thread, on the other hand, is going places... it's answering questions, it's providing examples of some widely misunderstood sections of the rules, it's highlighting the advantages of various archetypes... all kinds of good stuff going on here.

[Ryu]

I have learned here, too.

[Larme]

certainly, as the OP, i don't feel that this thread is going nowhere; you want to see a discussion that goes nowhere, trying the cain challenge threads.

Ok, you win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DMK]

Just chiming in with a "me too": This has been really interesting. I'm still not sure what to think about Command vs. Sensor Targetting... it seems... off... to me that a threaded Command CF could give you better dice pools then being jumped in (as far as strictly firing the gun.) I can't think of a good way to put it constructively though. Maybe it ought to be limited by the actual rating of the "stat" it's replacing. *shrug*

[hermit]

because like i said, there's a lot of stuff that's coming out that hermit didn't know, and he *likes* riggers to begin with

Yes, this thread has been quite intriguing for me. Also, having played a rigger since 1st edition all the way to today, yes, you can say I like rigger characters. Which might be why I am so ticked off at the technomancer dropping out of nowhere and - as I saw (and to a point still see) it, making riggers virtually obsolete.

Anyway, let's get back to comparing, shall we?

Vehicles are explicitly forbidden in the german version of the Diagnostic rules.

I know. Not in the English rules though, and those are the basis for this discussion. I've fallen into that trap too, twice, already.

[Ryu]

On simple driving:
TM: general bonus from threading +2 (no drain), Bonus for being hot-sim +2, Base command rating of 12 with Support Operation Sprite, Skill level 4 with specialisation. 20 dice

Rigger: VCR +2, Hot-Sim +2, Same skill, Response 6 (immediately after chargen). 16 dice, Threshold-1 due to VR-piloting.

Both can get a car to stand on one wheel... no difference.



About Support Operation: You can not use it for prolonged activities. Your sprites do the service for 3secs/rating point. Watch those intervals on extended tests. I would not count modifiers that are not there the whole time.

[hermit]

-1 Threshold is worthless in tests where just the hit number counts, like acceleration, like gunnery, like dodging ... correct me if I'm wrong and -1TH translates to +1 Hit there.

About Support Operation: You can not use it for prolonged activities. Your sprites do the service for 3secs/rating point. Watch those intervals on extended tests. I would not count modifiers that are not there the whole time.

Interesting point. This essentially takes sprite support out of hacking, or does it? Though we're still talking seconds here, so ...

[Ryu]

I know. Not in the English rules though, and those are the basis for this discussion. I've fallen into that trap too, twice, already.

Ok, another thing I learned in this thread. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Ryu]

-1 Threshold is worthless in tests where just the hit number counts, like acceleration, like gunnery, like dodging ... correct me if I'm wrong and -1TH translates to +1 Hit there.


Interesting point. This essentially takes sprite support out of hacking, or does it? Though we're still talking seconds here, so ...

I was only talking about maneuver tests. I like the acceleration rules... somewhat less than other rules, but you are right. The TM speeds up faster.

Gunnery/dodging leads into an area where I concede the higher DP to the TM (who is a full-blown rigger, too), but say that the lost actions and options outweight the small advantage. A TM-rigger should focus on providing matrix security for a drone network, thats what he´s good at. But jumping in, the best thing he can do in combat, benefits from quite a list of augmentations.

[Jaid]

oh, another comment... someone mentioned earlier about the TM needing to spend an action every turn controlling the vehicle while the rigger does not?

not true. the rigger still needs to spend an action controlling the vehicle, just like the TM.

it's cyborgs that don't need to spend an action controlling their vehicle.

[Ryu]

I understood that "control like the riggers body" in the RAW on Jumping In meant naturally, without spending an IP. Can we have a verdict on this?

[hermit]

So both rigger and TM have to spend an Action controlling the vehicle they've jumped into, but the TM had better DP when shooting, dodging, accellerating, better at controlling when using threaded Command (with some luck) and equal to the rigger in terms of vehicle controlling when jumped in, and though the TM cannot advance as fast as the Rigger can, he can advance steadily and endlessly while the Rigger hits that damn hardcap pretty fast and has to either branch out into a broader character concept (negating the idea of the mundane vehicle rigger in my book) or just stagnate and become obsolete.

Or have I misunderstood things?

[Ryu]

No, you haven´t. The TM has to spend actions on getting Support Operations, and can´t do Full defense on an interupt, but he has more dice.

The rigger will only stagnate when he has skill rating 6 in Perception, Gunnery, Dodge, at least 2 vehicle skills, Matrix Combat, Electronic Warfare, Hardware... some good 100+ karma before you are forced to increase anything secondary. And you can increase Edge to simulate Experience.

[Eyeless Blond]

and pick Aptitude if your GM will allow it. They can also pick up Reflex Recorders, Attention Coprocessors, and all those other perception boosters, Reakt, Qualia and PuSHeD genetic goodies, etc, though I'm not sure if Reakt will help with vehicle dodge.

[hermit]

Well, yes. But after some 150 Karma, the TM will have most CFs at 7 or highter and thread himself to insane DP.

@Eyeless: No, Reakt isn't too helpful for Riggers, as mainly Response is used in it's place (if I am not mistaken, at least).

Which other perception boosters? And what do you mean by Qualia and PuShEd genetic goodies?

[Eyeless Blond]

Qualia adds dice to Perception and Navigation; PuSHeD to mechanic and electronics skills. PuSHeD is especially useful for hackers, as it adds to the skill rather than the Logic attribute, so it helps even for hacking tests where Logic, and thus cerebral boosters, don't help.

[hermit]

Ah, the geneware, something I don't have as present as I'd propably would like to have it. Yes, that gives some nice boosts, though not above one dice on logic, two on intuition (at the price of having a mosquito's attention span) and a +2 to reaction (that would be Reakt, Pushed, Qualia, Dynomitan). Nothing to really catch up with Technos, if you want to develop both characters over more than a few runs.

[Larme]

Well, yes. But after some 150 Karma, the TM will have most CFs at 7 or highter and thread himself to insane DP.

Have you ever played a game that gets to 150 karma? I sure haven't, except on a MUX where you get karma for doing nothing, essentially. Honestly, at 100+ karma, mages should ALWAYS kick the crap out of mundanes. The mundanes can still be useful, because with that much karma they will have broadened their abilities quite a bit. But 100+ karma is mage town. That's true for TMs too. If mages rocking everyone at high karma levels offends you, all you can do about it is remove magic from your game. But if you don't, you're going to have to learn to live with it.

[MaxHunter]

Firstly I have to state that I have learned a lot with this thread. I was about not to read it at all, considering Jaid's blunt confrontational attitude at the beginning, but I am glad I read on because I got some deep insight into an area of the game I feel weak, plus Jaid is starting to show some manners. :smile

@Larme: on high karma games. I have to disagree with you and I tell you why. I am currently GMing a couple groups and one of them has reached about 170 karma and is still going strong. We have made some calculations and these runners have about 18 runs under each's belts, some of them taking 4+ sessions to complete, with an average of two. Of course, only three characters have survived that long, there is one with maybe 100 karma and a pool of about 4 or 5 other characters who have died, have retired or split from that group. None of the players running those characters feels close to hitting the ceiling. I estimate that might start to resemble a problem at about 250 karma, if then. One of them is an adept, grade 2 initiate and now has just finished "polishing" his missing skills and is beginning to learn martial arts and maneuvers. He could still play for another 200 karma and would still be unhappy. The ork samurai had to invest heavy karma to remove flaws that were there from chargen and started to be crippling as the run's demands became harsher. (uncultured) He also needed new skills he had never considered when his career started. (disguise, diving, parachuting) All of those came into play more than once in their careers and it has been a wise decision to get them, even at the cost of perfecting skills (5 +2 at pistols, for example). Edge has been a priority for everyone too, and still these guys are at 4, 4, 5. The third one is a dwarf former company man who wasn't really min-maxed at chargen and had to pay to get more optimized. He is also now doubling as... a rigger; well, actually a designated driver, so there is a long road ahead. (I believe he has 2 +2 in ground craft, for example)

I certainly do not believe a TM could have survived until now -or would be viable now, even with a 150+ karma upgrade. They are just too focused, too expensive, too limited and need babysitting. I am not saying they would not be fun, not at all. What I strongly disagree with is Hermit's vision of the evil TM's owning everyone. From game experience what took these particular characters this far (and buried the rest) has been more smart choices, resilience and -primarily- their ability to react effectively when things did not turn out as they expected. The last two of these areas a TM would probably be lacking, DP to DP comparisons just don't cut it, there is a much broader picture to consider.

Plus, a great character only needs that: character. Being the best of the best at one limited aspect of the game is just bells and whistles IMO.

I still have the feeling I would not like to play with Hermit's GM, but I might be wrong, just a feeling.

Just to repeat myself: Great thread, many things learned.

Cheers

Max

[hermit]

Have you ever played a game that gets to 150 karma?

Yes. It's fairly common among the people I play with to have characters with 200 or more Karma. some 400 isn't unheared of, and there also are a few four digit Karma characters around.

If mages rocking everyone at high karma levels offends you, all you can do about it is remove magic from your game. But if you don't, you're going to have to learn to live with it.

Keep magic out of this. Mages do different things than mundanes. Technomancers chime in on what mundanes can do and beat them at it. And Technos aren't mages, they work differently and are fairly unbalanced in just how powerful they are, combining the relative power of mages and the aspect of doing what mundanes do, only better, of adepts.

[Ryu]

Yes. It's fairly common among the people I play with to have characters with 200 or more Karma. some 400 isn't unheared of, and there also are a few four digit Karma characters around.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Under those conditions, you are either awakened or a TM or you have to branch out.