Dodge, What to use and when Options

[Zolhex]

Ok so I was hoping people could fill in some info.

What I am after is what to use and when to use it I.E.:

ranged gun shot - Dodge + Gymnatics? Dodge + Reaction? Dodge + Reaction + Gymnatics?

Melee - Dodge + Dodge + Reaction? Dodge + Gymnatics + Reaction? Dodge + Gymnatics + Melee weapon? Dodge + Reaction + Melee weapon?

I know there has been alot of discuission on this topic as to the whole what to use when to use as well as what modifications may or may not be useable.

Is there a chart someplace in a book that has all the different ways to use dodge? I thought I saw one once but don't seem to be able to find it now.

If not then this can be the place to put a chart of all the different ways to use dodge and people can look here and go ok let me print that off so I can keep it straight.

Just a random 5 am thought thanks to all who put any time in to helping me out here.

[Fortune]

Ranged
- Normal defence uses Reaction (only).
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + Dodge, or alternately you can use Reaction + Gymnastics

Melee
- Normal defence uses Reaction + (Dodge or Melee Skill)
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + (Dodge or Melee Skill) + (Dodge or Melee Skill or Gymnastics)

[Crusher Bob]

First there are 'passive' and 'active' defenses

Ranged combat:
Passive Defense:
Reaction

Active Defense:
Reaction + dodge (full defense)
or
Reaction + Gymnastics (Gymnastic dodge)

Close combat:

Passive Defense:
Reaction + close combat skill (unarmed, blades, clubs, exotic weapon, etc as appropriate)
or
Reaction + dodge

Active Defense:
Reaction + close combat skill x2 (full parry)
or
Reaction + dodge x2 (full dodge)
or
Reaction + close combat skill + dodge (oddly enough, also full dodge)
or
Reaction + gymnastics (gymnastic dodge)

------------------------

So note that dodge and gymnastics are equally useful when dodging ranged attacks, but vs close combat attacks dodge or a close combat skill is adds twice its dice pool, while the gymnastics dodge only adds the gymnastics dice once.

Relevant section of the book is on page 151 "full defense"

[edit]
Curses, beaten by the old man again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
[/edit]

[Fortune]

Reaction + gymnastics (gymnastic dodge)

------------------------

So note that dodge and gymnastics are equally useful when dodging ranged attacks, but vs close combat attacks dodge or a close combat skill is adds twice its dice pool, while the gymnastics dodge only adds the gymnastics dice once.

This is incorrect. In Gymnastic Melee Dodge, Gymnastics replaces either the Dodge Skill or the Melee Skill in one of the other options.

Reaction + (either Dodge or Melee skill) + Gymnastics.

Curses, beaten by the old man again.

Just. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[paws2sky]

While we're discussing Dodge...

Ranged
- Normal defence uses Reaction (only).
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + Dodge, or alternately you can use Reaction + Gymnastics

I have a theoretical NPC with no Dodge skill (and no Gymnastics). Someone shoots at theoretical NPC.

Since he has no Dodge, do I roll Reaction or (Reaction - 1) to defend? In other words, does it count as a a skill use?

Is there any reason for the NPC to try a Full Defense action instead of Normal Defense?

[Fortune]

If he had no Dodge Skill, he would not choose to use the Full Defense option (that would be silly). He would defend normally using Reaction, which is not an Action.

[paws2sky]

Thanks, Fortune.

That's what I figured about Full Defense, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

[Aaron]

If it's useful to the conversation, I usually impose a penalty to the dice pool of any Gymnastics Dodge Test if the character is in a position of limited maneuverability, e.g. on a ledge or in a narrow corridor. I don't penalize a character if he's using Dodge and not Gymnastics.

[Dashifen]

I do the same.

[It trolls!]

I don't. I have yet to encounter a situation where you're so confined, that you can't gymnastics dodge, but "regular" dodge works fine.

[Dashifen]

I haven't, either, but since the Gymnastics dodge description indicates cartwheels and flips, I make sure my players know that the Gymnastics dodge might not always be appropriate, while a simple Dodge roll probably would be.

[It trolls!]

Pure interpretation issue, I guess. I interpret Gymnastics Dodge as a sheer test on movement control. Dodge on the other side represents experience (where to not stick your head out for example) which is why you get dodge for free on your melee defense test, but have to focus (declare full defense) if you want to gymnastics dodge.
But I think we've already had that discussion often enough on DS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aaron]

I have yet to encounter a situation where you're so confined, that you can't gymnastics dodge, but "regular" dodge works fine.

Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.

[Dashifen]

Nope. They've had a few underground tunnels and caves, but no need to dodge while therein.

[It trolls!]

Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.

I don't see how that should affect dodge and gymnastics dodge differently.

[Slymoon]

Crawling down 3'-6' sewer pipe wont allow much int he way of gymnastics, nor will hanging or walking on a narrow cliff face. I think is what he was refering too.

There is always the " strapped in a car" scenario or any other strapping reason, like on a roller coaster. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[It trolls!]

I don't see how you could dodge there either. And it's not like gymnastics dodge necessarily means you're flailing around like Grammaton Cleric Neo McParcours.

[Slymoon]

Dodging need only be throwing yourself to one sode of the pipe you are crawling in.
Shifting your weight and ducking your head while on the cliff edge.

Back in school when you played "Flinch" where someone fake punched you and you flinched either to take the blow ('dwarven dodge' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) or try to move out of the way slightly is a dodge.

Often times the difference between getting hit and not is an inch of movement. The difference between a killing shot or not can be less than an inch.

[GryMor]

Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.

... Ok, I'm a bit confused, of those, three of them (catwalks, cliff faces and broken ground) are good for acrobatics while not being good for footwork or diving. Sewers are a bit iffy, crawling down a cramped pipe (where you take up the entire cross section of the pipe), you probably won't be able to do either, but at junctions and other oubliette like conditions, you won't have anywhere to dodge but up, and up, due to jumping, is gymnastics if it's anything.

[Whipstitch]

There's a tiny bit of RAW precedent for penalizing someone on their defense test for confined spaces, but it is just called a penalty to the dodge test with no further references to the skill being used (the example I refer to is aiming at a vehicle's occupants). I'm of the opinion that restricted movement is restricted movement, and were I to start penalizing people for it, I'd penalize people in much the same fashion regardless of the skill being used. It's all houserule territory and GM fiat at this point anyway though, so do what you will.

[It trolls!]

Well, I already stated my reasoning for dodge vs. gymnastics above.

If you'd boil it down to game balance, I rather see dodge as a shortbus skill for non-combat characters. After all for gymnastics dodge to be all-around effective, you're gonna need a melee skill along with it. If you're going for a face, mage or TM, dodge can yield you the damage mitigation benefits of both skills for the price of one plus more dice to avoid suppressive fire where the streetsam will probably need to soak.

[Whipstitch]

Yep. That's what I consider to be gymnastic's Achilles' heel: Good luck rolling Body+Armor to avoid being gutted like a fish when someone attacks you while you didn't have your preferred melee weapon drawn.

[Larme]

I think the intent in the book is that you can use gymnastics the same as you would dodge. People are treating the vague description of flips, etc., as hard and fast rules. They aren't. The way it works is the way it's described in the hard rules: you can gymnastics for dodge when doing full defense. That's it. You can house rule it for realism, of course. But the RAW doesn't sanction that outcome.

Anyway, assuming you're in some kind of narrow enclosure, there are plenty of ways to gymnastics dodge, realistically. You could drop down on your hands and do the neato gyrscope breakdancer move. Or you could just fall back into a backward somersault. Or you could do a butt spin, another dancing move. Or just jump to the side; remember that gymnastics covers jumping, too. Just because the book describe gymnastics dodge as being elaborate does not mean that people couldn't make subtle gymnastic moves.

People seem to be thinking that dodge is just like some kind of small reaction to get out of the way of the bullet; it isn't. You can't see the bullet, so a small, understated movement isn't going to get you out of its way. And you're not Vash the Stampede, you can't calculate where someone is aiming just by looking at the angle of their gun. Dodge involves flinging yourself to one side, or maybe faking one direction and bolting the other way, or falling prone and scrambling away. It isn't like a quick step to the side; to make that a dodge, you'd have to know where the enemy was aiming and when they were going to shoot. If you knew exactly when they would shoot, then sure, you could do a quick jerk and that would screw up their aim. But you don't. Full defense is making yourself harder to hit, it isn't about dodging a bullet. That's true whether it's gymnastics dodge or not.

But this is all a red herring. Per RAW, when you can dodge, you can gymnastics dodge. They are functionally the same, they just use different skills and different bonuses, and are described in two different ways. Obviously, however, people can't always dodge. If they're immobile, or in such a small space that they essentially can't move, then of course there's no full defense of any kind available.

@Whip: It really isn't that bad for gymnastics people defending in melee. Most gymnastics people will have pretty kickass agility. Even just 6 agility means you default unarmed combat with 5 dice. Same if your hands are full, you could default clubs or what have you without too bad a problem. Though obviously it isn't ideal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DireRadiant]

"flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc"... wouldn't the "etc" generally mean things other then flipping rolling and cartwheeling that you can do?

[Slymoon]

I just claified what I thought the poster meant.

By all means "Ect" yourself crazy in your shortbus. SR is abstract hence be abstract. Maybe for japanime reasons your mouth can squeeze down to the size of a gnats ball to let nothing in or be as large as a car tire to pass a load of elephant dung.

I don't really care.

Dashifen and Aaron do penalize you in certain situations and others don't. Yay.



*edit for clarity, wasn't meant as a personal attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)