Mana Static, Rules Interpretation help Options

[Stahlseele]

mana static, especially aspected(yes, in the german books it's still there kind of) has to be one of the dumbest spells ever . . at least, in my eyes and for exactly the reasons stated in this very thread

[Tarantula]

2 of my spirits were not next to me. I had just come through a door into an existing fight and hadn't had time to spread out. The Counterspell wouldnt have worked as far as I know, given that they werent the target of the spell, and the fact that it never went permanent is irrelevant as the disruption of the spirits is the main idea here. That spirit of man (which was a spirit stolen from a security mage ala banishing and resummoning) was a throwaway.

First, yeah, the 6 meter radius really is the limiting factor on it, its a great shot against 1 spirit, maybe, (the drain is rather henious), but manging to catch a couple inside of 6 meters would be hard.

Next, counterspelling would work. Its a spell, and its being cast at those you are counterspelling. It happens before the background count even goes up. Afterwards, you could try to disrupt the sustained spell, to get rid of it before it became permanent (though, thats not much issue since your spirits got knocked out of the fight once its cast). In other words, counterspelling is your friend here, as even a modest magician (Magic 5 + Counterspelling 4) gets 9 dice to counterspell with, which is roughly 3 hits, that'd drop it from being rating 6 background count to 3.

[samuelbeckett]

I always thought that Counterspelling could only be applied to spells that had a resistance test. As Mana Static is just a success test (as it targets the background count in an area rather than the spirits or mages themselves) surely Counterspelling would not apply?

[Magus]

I think that counterspelling can be applied to dispell any type of spell. This is the active use of the skill.

[Dashifen]

I think it falls under counterspelling when you're not aware of the spell. The paragraph in SR4 specifically mentions detection and illusion based spells being counterspelled. What does it mean to counterspell a spy trying to use clairvoyance on you ... that's an unresisted spell but SR4 allows it to be counterspelled so that the spy couldn't see you. I don't see a strong reason to disallow counterspelling for Mana Static if it's going to work against detection spells.

[samuelbeckett]

I think that counterspelling can be applied to dispell any type of spell. This is the active use of the skill.

Yes, but that would be a complex action and by the time the mage did this the Mana Static would have done its work (i.e. removed the spirits). I was questioning the use of Counterspelling for Spell Defense when the spell is an area effect spell without a resistance test.

[samuelbeckett]

I think it falls under counterspelling when you're not aware of the spell. The paragraph in SR4 specifically mentions detection and illusion based spells being counterspelled. What does it mean to counterspell a spy trying to use clairvoyance on you ... that's an unresisted spell but SR4 allows it to be counterspelled so that the spy couldn't see you. I don't see a strong reason to disallow counterspelling for Mana Static if it's going to work against detection spells.

Ah, see I read that completely differently. I assumed that meant counterspelling could be used in the case of Active Detection spells (i.e. those with a resistance test) despite the fact you may not see the spell being cast.

In fact, there is a paragraph on p.198 that specifically says you can't use counterspelling as Spell Defense on Passive Detection spells (like clairvoyance). You can only dispel sustained or quickened passive spells that you are already aware of.

[Tarantula]

The spell is an area, environmental manipulation spell. SR4, 173 under Area Spells: "Area spells affect all valid targets within the radius of effect, friend and foe alike (including the caster)."

Since you can counterspell against fireballs and the like (which are also area spells) as long as whoever your counterspelling is in the area, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to counterspell mana static.

[Muspellsheimr]

Counterspelling Fireball effectively adds your hits as bonus successes to the subject for resisting the spell. In other words, you can only counterspell in this way spells that affect a target & allow a resistance test.

Mana Static does not affect those in it's area, per se, it affects the ambient mana in the area, so unless your GM let's you use counterspelling to protect the ambient mana in an area for spell defense, you cannot counterspell it.

On a side note, comparing a combat spell to an environmental manipulation spell simply because they both have an AoE is pretty retarded. If you have to make a comparison, use Ice Sheet. Can counterspelling help you maintain your balance? Counterspelling works against opposed spellcasting tests, not against success spellcasting tests, or tests against anything other than spellcasting.

[Ravor]

I think I'd allow Counterspelling to work if it was in effect at the same time Ice Sheet / Mana Static was cast, but not afterward. But then again I view Counterspelling as being detectable in the Astral as well, which I don't think is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) RAW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) .

[Dashifen]

Interesting ... I've always allowed Spell Defense against all spells regardless of type, but I guess I was wrong. Perhaps active spell defense by a third party wouldn't make sense, but if one of those spirits had Counterspelling, I'd definately let it add to their own resistance.

[Tarantula]

Counterspelling Fireball effectively adds your hits as bonus successes to the subject for resisting the spell. In other words, you can only counterspell in this way spells that affect a target & allow a resistance test.

No, it doesn't. Mage A casts a force 6 fireball on an area that shadowrunners 1, 2, 3, and 4, and the shadowrunner mage 5 are in. Mage 5 is counterspelling only himself none of his teammates. Mage A gets 2 successes on his spellcasting test. Mage 5 gets 3 successes on his counterspelling test. As per SR4, 175-176, "Hits generated on this test reduce the net hits of the spell's caster as with any opposed test." Counterspelling is added in addition to the body or willpower roll for resisting.

Mana Static does not affect those in it's area, per se, it affects the ambient mana in the area, so unless your GM let's you use counterspelling to protect the ambient mana in an area for spell defense, you cannot counterspell it.

The mana in the area you say? SR4, 176, "A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of—specifically, Detection spells and Illusion spells—as the magician is actively “jamming� the mana around him."
Now, I'm not arguing that it says explicitly one way or the other, but if the magician is "jamming" the mana around him, and someone casts a spell into that mana (such that the magician was in the area of effect) I'd call that he gets his counterspelling roll.

On a side note, comparing a combat spell to an environmental manipulation spell simply because they both have an AoE is pretty retarded. If you have to make a comparison, use Ice Sheet. Can counterspelling help you maintain your balance? Counterspelling works against opposed spellcasting tests, not against success spellcasting tests, or tests against anything other than spellcasting.

Why is that so retarded? Of course counterspelling doesn't help maintain your balance, just as it doesn't help reduce the background count from an already active mana static. SR4, 175, "A magician can use Counterspelling to defend herself and others against a spell being cast." That doesn't say "but only on opposed tests" or anything of that sort. Is mana static a spell? Yes. Is it being cast? Yes. Is it against the magician or someone they are counterspelling for? Yes. They can counterspell it.

Now then, as for why my position is like this. SR4, 173 describes Area Spells under step 3, "Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected. All visible targets within the area are affected; area spells can affect more than one target at a time." This means that ALL area spells do not target the people they are affecting, but target the point in space from which they originate. Yet, as you said, you CAN use counterspelling on a fireball. Mana Static also has an Environmental tag on it. SR4, 202, "Environmental Manipulations affect conditions such as light, temperature, gravity, etc." Ok, that explains how they can do their funky stuff, great. Now, you asked to use Ice Sheet as an example.

We'll break it down by the steps presented in SR4. Mage A wants to cast a spell, step 1, he picks ice sheet. Step 2, he decides to cast it at force 6. Step 3, It is an area spell, so he targets point 1. (He chooses point 1, because Mage B is within 6 meters of it). Step 4, he makes his spellcasting test, and scores 3 hits. Step 5, He doesn't get to resist the spell with body or willpower. He is counterspelling though, And as such, rolls his counterspelling dice alone. 4 hits. Enough to negate the spell entirely. Step 6, Mage A eats his drain. Step 7, The spell could've been sustained at this point if it had successfully been cast. Since it wasn't, nothing happens here.

Now, why do I grant the mage his counterspelling dice for resistance when the book doesn't explicitly say one way or another? Well, lets look at another manipulation spell, armor. An enemy mage casts armor on the mystic adept who is trying to sneak in using a ruthenium suit to avoid the guards spotting him as he makes his way in. The mage casts at force 4, he wants to light up the adept, so the guards will notice the adept is on his way in. The mage gets a whopping 4 successes. If counterspelling works as you say, even though the mystic adept doesn't want the armor spell to affect him, it does, the end. I think, if he wants counterspelling can apply, and his hits will reduce the hits the mage got as per normal.

[samuelbeckett]

No, it doesn't. Mage A casts a force 6 fireball on an area that shadowrunners 1, 2, 3, and 4, and the shadowrunner mage 5 are in. Mage 5 is counterspelling only himself none of his teammates. Mage A gets 2 successes on his spellcasting test. Mage 5 gets 3 successes on his counterspelling test. As per SR4, 175-176, "Hits generated on this test reduce the net hits of the spell's caster as with any opposed test." Counterspelling is added in addition to the body or willpower roll for resisting.

You seem to be a little selective with the quote - the full text is:

When a protected character is targeted with a spell, she rolls Counterspelling dice in addition to the appropriate attribute (Body or Willpower) for the resistance test. Hits generated on this test reduce the net hits of the spell's caster as with any Opposed Test.

Nothing in that indicates you get to use Counterspelling to protect against spells that do not have a resistance test (i.e. Mana Static) - the rules are clear that Spell Defense only applies to resistance tests.

What this means it that you don't get to suddenly make a Counterspelling test every time you see someone casting a spell in order to prevent them casting. Instead, you get to increase the dice pool of your resistance test to block the effect of the already cast spell.

And as I quoted in a previous post, the statement about Detection and Illusion spells also only applies to the spells in those categories that have resistance tests - p.198 is clear that passive detection spells (i.e. those that are just success tests) cannot be Counterspelled using Spell Defense, they can only be actively dispelled once they are running (which obviously only applies to Sustained or Quickened spells that you are already aware of).

[Tarantula]

You seem to be a little selective with the quote - the full text is:

When a protected character is targeted with a spell, she rolls Counterspelling dice in addition to the appropriate attribute (Body or Willpower) for the resistance test. Hits generated on this test reduce the net hits of the spell's caster as with any Opposed Test.

Nothing in that indicates you get to use Counterspelling to protect against spells that do not have a resistance test (i.e. Mana Static) - the rules are clear that Spell Defense only applies to resistance tests.

I disagree. Its all in that first sentence. When the protected character is targeted with a spell, they roll counterspelling dice. This adds to any dice they get for the resistance test. Not if they get a resistance test, they roll counterspelling. Its if they are the target, they roll counterspelling. Period. Now, with area spells they target an area or a point in space. So, technically, they don't target any characters. So you shouldn't be able to resist them at all. I disagree with that, I think they should be resistable.

What this means it that you don't get to suddenly make a Counterspelling test every time you see someone casting a spell in order to prevent them casting. Instead, you get to increase the dice pool of your resistance test to block the effect of the already cast spell.

And as I quoted in a previous post, the statement about Detection and Illusion spells also only applies to the spells in those categories that have resistance tests - p.198 is clear that passive detection spells (i.e. those that are just success tests) cannot be Counterspelled using Spell Defense, they can only be actively dispelled once they are running (which obviously only applies to Sustained or Quickened spells that you are already aware of).

Why should someone be able to counterspell against armor, ice sheet, levitate, light, mana barrier, physical barrier, poltergeist, shadow, and I'd throw shapechange in there, except its the only spell that works specifically on voluntary targets. If the intention was that no matter what, these spells go up, and theres nothing counterspelling can do about it, then whats the point of counterspelling?

I don't think that there should be no resistance test to those spells, I think counterspelling should apply. Levitate is a great example. Why bother learning any combat spells, when you can just nail people with force 3 leviates. Why? The drain is a whopping 2 each, and with magic 5, they go at 15m/sec. Since you can control them, turn them around so they can't shoot or anything at you, and just raise them up till you're sure they'd splat. Then stop sustaining it. They get absolutely no resistance to this, whatsoever, even if they have a mage counterspelling for them. At best, the mage could try to dispell the sustained spell, in which case they fall down anyway.

[GryMor]

Why should someone who isn't the target of mana static and hasn't declared (and likely can't even see) the actual target of the mana static be able to roll counterspelling dice to impede the casting of the mana static? It doesn't target people, it doesn't target people in it's area, it targets the mana field in it's area, just as surely as a mana barrier being cast over you to impede your magic doesn't actually target you or anyone your counterspelling for.

[Tarantula]

Why should someone who isn't the target of mana static and hasn't declared (and likely can't even see) the actual target of the mana static be able to roll counterspelling dice to impede the casting of the mana static? It doesn't target people, it doesn't target people in it's area, it targets the mana field in it's area, just as surely as a mana barrier being cast over you to impede your magic doesn't actually target you or anyone your counterspelling for.

You're right, they aren't the target. The area is the target. Why should someone be able to counterspell a fireball? They aren't the target of the spell, the area is. They just happen to be inside that area. If someone casts a mana barrier bubble around you (so that you are within the area range of the spell), and you are a mage with counterspelling, you should get a counterspelling roll. Just as if someone cast a physical barrier bubble around you trapping you.

[IC-Pick]

Ok, then how? What would be your mechanics to resist it? I would love to delve into it further.

[Tarantula]

Straight counterspelling. Since there is no base resistance roll, they don't have anything to add to it. Hits on the counterspelling test negate successes on the spellcasting test.

[samuelbeckett]

Straight counterspelling. Since there is no base resistance roll, they don't have anything to add to it. Hits on the counterspelling test negate successes on the spellcasting test.

Which is a houserule of course, but not a bad one if you want to decrease the potency of magic users in your campaign. Given the potential ability to completely negate all spells from being cast, I'm pretty sure Counterspelling would be even more of a must have skill.

Technically, most of the manipulation spells you have quoted (including Shapechange) are Success Tests, so according to RAW Counterspelling would not apply (as there is no resistance test). The point of Counterspelling is to effectively provide extra 'defense' to a target who gets to resist a spell whose effect or damage is caused by mana, not to prevent an unresistable spell from working.

So yes, that does mean that Counterspelling does not work against Fireballs or Ball Lightning or Acid Stream or any other combat spell that has the Elemental quality. For a direct quote, see p.196 of the BBB - Elemental Effects.

If you want Counterspelling to defend against all spells then more power to you, just understand that it is not RAW.

[Tarantula]

Hrm, all this talk has given me a few new questions. What happens when a mage casts a force 6 physical barrier around a human, and withholds 5 dice to make it a 1 meter high dome. The human in question is between 1 and 2 meters tall. Does he get stuck it as the barrier forms around him? Does he get pushed outside/inside of it? Does he take any damage as the barrier tries to go through him?

[Jaid]

Hrm, all this talk has given me a few new questions. What happens when a mage casts a force 6 physical barrier around a human, and withholds 5 dice to make it a 1 meter high dome. The human in question is between 1 and 2 meters tall. Does he get stuck it as the barrier forms around him? Does he get pushed outside/inside of it? Does he take any damage as the barrier tries to go through him?

read the spell. if the barrier is not filling an unobstructed space, it fizzles.

[Tarantula]

read the spell. if the barrier is not filling an unobstructed space, it fizzles.

I read the spell, I don't see this anywhere within the spell description. Theres also nothing in the errata that says as much.

Also, what happens if instead of a physical barrier spell, they use an elemental wall spell (of a solid element, such as ice, metal, or earth)? What if they cast it as a 1 meter thick wall, 1 meter long, and 1 meter high, encompassing the persons legs? Can they even try to move without destroying the wall? What if they cast it so that its 1 meter thick, 2 long, and 2 high, encompassing the persons head? They don't get a resistance test, they take damage, and they can't do anything to stop it. Even another mage couldn't stop the spell whatsoever.

[IC-Pick]

So yes, that does mean that Counterspelling does not work against Fireballs or Ball Lightning or Acid Stream or any other combat spell that has the Elemental quality.

Ugg... now I can't wait to get home to read it... That would be just crazy wrong (and way too much benefit to justify the drain code increase)

[FrankTrollman]

Counterspelling does not add to the "resistance" roll against Fireball, but it does add to the Damage Resistance test.

So Counterspelling will make you take less damage, but it won't change how often you are hit. This means that Acid Bolt and the like are ideal spells to hit targets that have a lot of Counterspelling.

-Frank

[samuelbeckett]

Counterspelling does not add to the "resistance" roll against Fireball, but it does add to the Damage Resistance test.

So Counterspelling will make you take less damage, but it won't change how often you are hit. This means that Acid Bolt and the like are ideal spells to hit targets that have a lot of Counterspelling.

-Frank

Not to quibble with someone who knows the rules way better than I do, but are you sure?

The section on p.196 seems pretty clear. Indirect Combat Spells that hit are resisted by Body + half Impact Armor + Counterspelling, but Elemental Indirect Combat Spells that hit are only resisted by Body + half Impact Armor. This would make sense to me, as the fire in a fireball is no different from the fire from an actual flamethrower, so jamming the mana around the target shouldn't make the blindest bit of difference to the damage.