Mil Spec get's No Respect, or why you can't hack Military combat drones Options

[GryMor]

One time pad encryption is unbreakable unless someone Fraks up.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad
The rigger in my game is a real life programmer he has a system for generating Pads using a radio and power line to pull down random snips of traffic, these are loaded into data chips inserted into his drones, commands or attempts to dive the drone are not accepted unless they use the pad.

One time pads have 'problems' in lossy environments (like wireless, or packet switched networks). You can protect the payload, but the underlying layers are still vulnerable to attack, and if you can interrupt the communication while inserting known plaintext, you can potentially steal enough bits of the pad from A that B doesn't know has been used to spoof. You can't pad the bottom layer as it needs a mechanism of getting the pads back in sync when packets are lost.

In theory, a drone is potentially hackable via it's sensors, but like one time pads, thats abstracted away.

[DocTaotsu]

The article seems to indicate that simply inserting random bits of information will invalidate your transmissions because the two pads won't line up. Is that right?

[kzt]

The article seems to indicate that simply inserting random bits of information will invalidate your transmissions because the two pads won't line up. Is that right?

OTPs have lots of practical issues that make them kind of tough to use in a real system. The lack of encryption also means that you can spoof credit transactions trivially, can never trust anything on the matrix, can have your credentials for any electronic transaction stolen, etc. It's a huge mess caused by the fact that the writers don't have the foggiest idea how computers work. The easy solution is to ignore the "rules" someone spewed on the page in a drunken haze and assume that decent encryption works.

Encryption and decryption isn't much more broken that the rest of the entire chapter, but it's really annoying in lots of places. Isn't it odd how a Cyber Punk game can never get the Cyber rules to work? You'd think they would playtest this with people who had a clue and produce rules that at least vaguely worked. Instead we have multiple writers who have totally different ideas about how critical parts are supposed to work writing rules that just don't work using the assumptions that underlay other parts of the same chapter, and nobody noticed.

[Malicant]

It's a huge mess caused by the fact that the writers don't have the foggiest idea how computers work.

Always the same old song. Devs don't know squat about whatever the specialist chose to rant about. Funny. Ever thought about the fact that you know squat about game design? Realism goes so far before it makes no fun at all to bookkeep all the details.

The easy solution is to ignore the "rules" someone spewed on the page in a drunken haze and assume that decent encryption works.

What does that even mean? Encryption works even if you don't ignore the "rules".

[DocTaotsu]

Is it really necessary to depict the developers as drooling idiots? It's kinda getting old man, not all of us think they're retarded or their game is "...spewed on the page in a drunk haze". Is the encryption system broken from the perspective of modern encryption projected 60 years into a future with dragons and Japanese dominated society? Maybe? Is it a gameplay mechanic that totally ruins my gaming experience or has even come up in the last 10 games I've run. Not really.

Nobody noticed because encryption as written is a gameplay element that is... for gaming. Not everyone wants to manage a "realistic" matrix experience in the same way that not everyone wants a combat system that models coriolis effect.

And AFV is a very broad term, what vehicle exactly were you talking about? A bradley?

[Synner667]

Generally, my Players don't get to see any gear their characters wouldn't be able to get their hands on - no reading the gearbooks or sourcebooks for them to choose specialist gear..
..If they want it, they need to be able to explain what they want - then I see if anything fits their criteria, in terms that fit the game I'm running [non-standard, multi-sourcebook SR].


So for my Players, MilSpec gear and Corp gear is the premier grade bangbang..
..They won't encounter it unless someone gives it to them as a pressie/bonus, they find or steal it [if they even realise what they have], or someone uses it against them.

[kigmatzomat]

Maximum Metal fucking rocked. Having some way of demonstrating to players exactly why they didn't belong screwing around with an MBT ("Look, guys... your ETC Rifle just ain't gonna do it") was entertaining, and every once in a while something took a potshot at them and they all got to run like hell. Powered armor was also entertaining.

I did like the power armor rules. I tried to run a Bubblegum Crisis-esque game with Maximum Metal. I gave everybody a fixed amount of cash and told the players (anime addicts) to think of BGC when they made their suits.

The first guy was a great energy weapon-based suit. Lasers, microwavers, EMP, signal jammers, and a 7.62 minigun as his "break stuff" weapon. He was fairly well protected but with a bigger emphasis on speed than armor.

The next guy had a tight concept that was suicidal. He was grenade-boy, with eight automatic launchers and a mortar. The ammo weighed a ton. Because he remembered the urban setting, he kept his weight down by sacrificing armor. I quickly realized that if he got caught in his own barrage he'd kill himself. God help him if his ammo compartment was breached.

Third player had a reasonable amount of armor but his main gun was the 30mm AT cannon from an A10 firing DUAPFDS. He couldn't fire it without taking out three buildings. Oh, and it's like 4 meters long so he couldn't go anywhere with it.

The last suit was a tank. Literally. It weighed about 2 tons. His weapons were reasonable but he spent his cash on all the armor he could buy. He could shrug off the other guy's anti-tank rounds but I figured that if he ventured away from the federal highways he'd sink knee deep in the ground.

Sigh.

[Spike]

Swoon!

I wanna play! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Crusher Bob]

The one-time pad is quite silly in SR since computing power is way higher than today so this thing can be actually broken by trial and error.

There is no such thing as unhackable. Swallow your pride and accept it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

AH, the old call to jihad again.
Short version: properly implemented one time pads are unbreakable without either access to the plaintext or access to the pad.

Of course, perfectly implementing one time pads is somewhat tedious, but since it seems to be the only version of encryption in the SR would that is worth anything, everyone will have lots of practice in implementing them.

Of course, not only do the developers not understand encryption, they don't get what encryption can and can't protect you against...

[Fix-it]

traffic analysis and radio triangulation, for starters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

M - I - L - S - P - E -C
Find out what it means to me.

[cndblank]

his has been a fun read.

Have to remember not to post just be bed then work.

When talking Mil Spec, I wasn't thinking of the big guns and toys that the front line troops would have. I was thinking of the difference between Security and Military equipment and methods.

Like what the military (and the Spooks/CIA) would provide to special forces, and the like. What Comm gear, what cyberware, what gear would a combat hacker have?

Or military grade ECM and ECCM that the navy and air force would be using. And what a military grade Combat Drone would have in the way of security.

I mean if you are going to spend millions of dollars to train someone and get him half way around the world where he (or she) can do the most good, then you are not going to skimp on outfitting them with the best. And in the Sixth World there is a whole lot that you can outfit them with.

[Whipstitch]

If your tanks hatches are anything like a Bradley's, the locks can be externally removed in a few seconds with nothing more than a socket wrench.

-NR

Heh, I think that's why he did mention the determined thief part and the guards. I am quite harmless and rather inept with mechanical devices, but that wouldn't stop the base personnel from being quite cross with me if they caught me wandering around the garage with a socket wrench and toolbox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fuchs]

If your tanks hatches are anything like a Bradley's, the locks can be externally removed in a few seconds with nothing more than a socket wrench.

-NR

Those were M-113s, so I assume the "locks" were worse than a Bradley's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . It was simply a padlock (and not even a very sturdy looking one) for the driver's hatch. Mainly served to annoy us when we had to search the parked tanks for that stupid form that was missing every second day, and had to open them one by one.

[Fuchs]

Speaking of BBC: We ran a BBC campaign using SR2 rules once. The players characters were not the ones in the cool hardsuits though, but "q-squad" from the ADP - a sort of disposal unit for screw-ups and oddballs, whose first job was to investigate the accidental deaths of their precedessors. Every character had lots of flaws, which caused all sorts of havoc. We got to use the K-11 suit once, sort of - when an emergency required it to be deployed, but the only team member available was not really certed for it...

On topic: How do you see power armor in SR? Viable for the military, or just something better left with Appleseed?

[Screamin Demon]

As much as I thump the 'keep it realistic' button, watch out for bringing in too many real world ideas into game.

In theory a rigger could have 10 rocket launchers on his van all tuned to one smartgun node and fire them all simultaneously (Not even that expensive, the 1,000 nuyen disposable model could be easily modified to fire multiple times at a moderate cost) on a single target.

Such things would, however, overbalance the precarious play of powers within the game. Thus no matter how perfected an outside idea may be, or how crafty a code you can think up, it all needs to be represented in game by a die roll.

Particularly clever ideas could be represented by a bonus to said die roll, but in spite of whoever GM's your games inability to logically shoot your masterfully crafted idea down, NPCs are often more capable and are also entitled to a like roll of dice.

Just remember that no matter how strong or smart or fast you may be, your GM is always at least one step better.

And sorry, just read the entire thread in one go and I thought it needed to be said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)

As you were...

[Crusher Bob]

On topic: How do you see power armor in SR? Viable for the military, or just something better left with Appleseed?

The problem with PA is that is fits too neatly into the category of things the runners would run into. If we assume that a suit of PA is comparable in cost to an IFV (maybe 250K Y for the budget version and maybe 2M Y for the advanced version) then it would be cheap enough to use to protect run targets or by the runners themselves.

Personally, I'd be against it since it would generally take the focus off the PCs themselves and focus more on the equipment they had.

[Crusher Bob]

On topic: How do you see power armor in SR? Viable for the military, or just something better left with Appleseed?

The problem with PA is that is fits too neatly into the category of things the runners would run into. If we assume that a suit of PA is comparable in cost to an IFV (maybe 250K Y for the budget version and maybe 2M Y for the advanced version) then it would be cheap enough to use to protect run targets or by the runners themselves.

Personally, I'd be against it since it would generally take the focus off the PCs themselves and focus more on the equipment they had.

[Edge2054]

I believe it was said in another thread that encryption was kept simple (and easier to break then it is in the real world for that matter) intentionally.

As far as hacking milspec drones and what not... can't you load them up with firewalls, IC, and all that good shit?


To the comment on military grade vs. corp grade, I don't buy that. I realize corps don't have the need for a standing army so I'm sure they don't spend as much budget on such things but corporate black ops are a very real part of shadowrun, the game name itself is basically a slang term for corp black ops. You can bet that breaking into a super secure corp facility is going to be just as difficult if not more difficult then getting into a military secure compound. Just because they don't spend as much on military gear doesn't mean that military gear isn't just as cutting edge when they do use it. In other words a smaller budget for such things just means they don't spread themselves as thin and use it in the places they do need it.

On top of this, military in shadowrun gets most of it's gear through defense contracts, those defense contracts get filled by corps. So to say a corp like Ares isn't going to have access to the same milspec hardware the UCAS military uses I can't understand. The Megas run the SR world not countries. They let countries deal with all the bullshit so they don't have to. I'm still sure they defend what's their's with as much bleeding edge tech as they can muster when it's warranted.

[DocTaotsu]

That sounds about right since the corps you know... produce all that milspec gear for the military. The corps have a very strong vested interest to never allow normal governments to rise to power again. I'm not saying UCAS isn't get SOTA, I'm just saying that the corps are probably following the basic finance guideline of "Pay yourself first".

Is there any major weapon system that is produced by a national government (that's not named Aztlan?). If I understand correctly the UCAS and the CAS pretty much buy all their stuff of Ares who now owns to the rights to everything from the M22 assault rifle to your average main battle tank.

[cndblank]

To clarify, I'm not saying that the Corps don't have Mil Spec. They are the ones that research and develop it. And the elite Mega Corp Strike forces are certainly far better equipped than the Line National Military. Having access to Mil Spec gear is what makes the Corp Black Sites and black teams so fragging nasty.

The ones where any runner caught will be stripped, interrogated, shoot, and buried in the 2070 equivalent of a couple of sacks of lime.

I'm talking about the stuff that is so black that on the Mega Corp side only a elite strike force or black op team would have it. The Mega Corp has these forces for when the stakes are so high they don't care about local laws and public opinion. On the government side, they usually write the laws so they don't apply to themselves.

Also the Corps have mostly Strike Forces and a bunch of security assets rather then a full blown military. They also have problems moving their hard core assets in to non third world nations. It is far easier to move a "security" unit in to a nation to "protect" a site with extraterritoriality. Don't want terrorists blowing up nuclear power plant or Bio Research facility do we? If a Corp strike force causes too much collateral damage to bystanders and the surrounding countryside then the local government and other Corporations are going to sue their asses off. Not to mention what other "Actions" might be taken.

A good point is that the Mega Corps use Shadowrunners because they can't get caught using Mil Spec gear (and all the collateral damage) in most situations or public opinion will turn against them. And the National Governments would be all over them. Can we say Nationalization? And the other Mega Corps would likely let it happened because it would remove one Cowboy who was rocking the boat and leave that much of the pie for everyone else (after all the government has to contract the new nationalized properties to someone to run don't they). Just like they have to pay at least lip service to environmental regulations.

What makes Aztechnology so bad is that is is a Megacorp AND a large country. The best half of Aztechnology security is made up of Aztlan former (or not so former) military veterans.

The other thing to remember in the balancing act between the Mega Corps and national governments is that while the Mega Corps have the upper hand, the Mega Corps don't want to become the government because there is no profit in it.

[Spike]

Sorry Doc, thought we'd covered that.

For line troops there isn't really a 'Milspec' difference in gear, with the possible (and non-rules governed) exception that it will be generally far more durable. If there is a difference its that you won't see compromise solutions. Troops will have assault rifles, every fourth or fifth (or possibly Every...)soldier will have a GL. There will be machine guns all over the place (light ones with every batch of troops, medium and heavy emplaced), full sniper teams (two man teams, with a dozen or more teams covering important areas... that's a lot of snipers), and every vehicle will be armored. Most of them will make the citymaster look like a joke, the rest will be 'quick transport' rather than fighting vehicles.

Assuming that soldiers are armored, you're probably looking at heavy security armor with chemical protection as a minimum (or milspec armor if that's in arsenal... I forget) for everyone.

The difference isn't that the military has different equipment available to it, its how they employ it. They don't worry as much about cost, and not at all about scaring people with the heavy hardware. That's their job.

Its all stuff the corps can have, and can use. Its stuff the Runners might get their hands on. Only: lots and lots of it.

[Mäx]

A good point is that the Mega Corps use Shadowrunners because they can't get caught using Mil Spec gear (and all the collateral damage) in most situations or public opinion will turn against them. And the National Governments would be all over them. Can we say Nationalization?

That would pretty much be a ex-country if it tried to nationalizai a triple A global mega corporations local assets.

[Spike]

That would pretty much be a ex-country if it tried to nationalizai a triple A global mega corporations local assets.

That is purely an assumption. Now: Support it.

[Synner667]

The problem with PA is that is fits too neatly into the category of things the runners would run into. If we assume that a suit of PA is comparable in cost to an IFV (maybe 250K Y for the budget version and maybe 2M Y for the advanced version) then it would be cheap enough to use to protect run targets or by the runners themselves.

You consider 250K or 2M to be "cheap" for 'Runners ??
I think you've left the land of SR and headed off somewhere else !!