Need some help with a character, Mage with some issues. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Onin the Shade]

Ok, the last session I played in, our group were all heavy hitters, Im now a smokeing pile of mage-bits scattered across the barrens and the other 3 decided it would be a good idea to be a little more stealthy. My brother dropped his medic character (after realiseing he was useless unless healing people) and i decided to stick to a mage. I like the mages in this game, they seem more versitle. Anyways, because ive come to realise that its called "SHADOWRUN" and not "LOOK AT ME IM RIGHT HERE-RUN" ive decided to be a little more stealthy. My questions are simple, but i cant seem to figure out what would be best. Im going to have the invisibilty and stealth spells, that seems to be a must, first question is, should i put enough ranks into the stealth skills or skill group so that i would be just as stealthy, if not a little less, with the spells and without them sustained? Or would it be more worthwhile to just concentrate on spellcasting, put just enough ranks in the stealth skills so im not defaulting, and let the spells be sneaky for me? I can see the bonus for the first one, it being that if they see through the spells, then im still relativly hidden and sneaky, but the downside would be the extra cost in BP, which would ultimately lower my spell effectiveness (skills, then putting enough into AGI and INT that it would work). The second one would be that if im good at spells, then its harder for them to see me, but i wouldnt be able to sneak around in anti-magic areas, or places that get warded. Also if they see through the spell, then im boned, but that would be about the same for someone rolling high perception and seeing a sneaky dude. Any other tips on how to be sneaky, or a better mage in general, would rock. Im a novice to the game, and mages in general, normally palyed a cleric. (IE is there any spell that is a must have?)

Also, a good race. was thinking elven for the higher cha for me being a shamenistic mage, or troll for the higher bod and str, which ultimately saves me points from not putting any points into them anyhow.

[Screamin Demon]

If you want survivability go Dwarf, and just buy yourself the invisibility spell and some serious blaster spells. Mages are the most powerful 'class' in shadowrun. A little research and you should be putting the rest of your group to shame with your phantom mass-murdering AoEs.

[edit] I felt ashamed of my short post, so here are a few more pointers: Max out your will. Take the advantage, get your will up to 7 or 8. Take a fetish on your heavier drain spells. Do you have access to Street Magic? There are a lot of awesome spells there, take the time to read them all and decide what you want. Another cool way to jack up the power level is through previously summoned spirits. Go on and bind em at the beginning of the week, your GM shouldn't mind if you sacrifice a point Karma to the higher power spirits you summon. Then you can add 6 dice to any spell you cast at the cost of a single service, which if you have a decent summoning skill and a Mentor Spirit that supports a particular kind should be a small commodity indeed. Get yourself a decent focus or two. Power Foci are horribly expensive, but even moreso if purchased after chargen. Rocking the 'Mage Nerd' concept and rolling with a character that can't do much outside the realm of magic is generally acceptable. Read your books, man! Its all in there, I'm telling you. [/edit]

[Muspellsheimr]

While spells are certainly useful, I would strongly recommend not relying on them - first time you come across a heavy background count, or a strong barrier. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with spellcasting - it's one of the most powerful aspects of the game, just don't put it as your only focus.

Put simply, don't invest to much in your stealth skills (unless you are focusing primarily on stealth), but be sure to have them for when magic is not an option.

[KurenaiYami]

Go on and bind em at the beginning of the week, your GM shouldn't mind if you sacrifice a point Karma to the higher power spirits you summon.[/edit]

*Is the OP's GM.*

He can do that?

And our group does not have access to Street Magic. I don't allow the book unless I'm familiar enough with the rules, as my players are...prone to creative interpretations of the text. Like the one where they tried to claim they could wait until after they realized they failed their Reaction test to avoid being shot to decide whether or not to declare full defense. Or when the medic took Quick Healer and claimed the effect was doubled for when he fixed himself.

Of course, if any of my currently employed players would like to buy me a copy of Street Magic...

[Crusher Bob]

Here's a quick build for some discussion:

Ork (394 points)
Edges: Full Mage (Intuition Tradition), Mentor Spirit (Rat)
Flaws: 35 points, your choice

Body 4
Agility 2
Reaction 3
Strength 3
Charisma 4
Intuition 5
Logic 3
Willpower 5

Edge 1
Magic 5

Spellcasting 6
Counterspelling 4
Summoning 4
Binding 4

Etiquette 1
Con 1
Infiltration 2

Dodge 4

Perception 4
Assensing 4

Spells:
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Levitate
Improved Invisibility
Stunball
Stunbolt

Gear:
Sustaining focus (force 3), Power Focus (Force 2)
20K Y Left for other Gear

Contacts: 10 points

You have 6 points left over for some more gear, edges, or whatever.
You have enough body to wear an armored jacket, can roll 8 dice in infiltration if you get a specialization (rem: rat gives +2 to infiltration tests)

You have 13 dice to cast any sort of spell, and 10 dice to resist drain. Your main weakness is edge 1, spend the karma from your first few games on raising edge.

[KurenaiYami]

I figure it's worth mentioning that I double Karma rewards for this game. Quicker character advancement.

Last mission (which lasted two sessions) netted two of the players 12 Karma.

[Screamin Demon]

12 Karma!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
Christ on a bicycle man!
The most I ever gave for supreme bravery (He accepted the challange of mono-e-mono combat with a juicer street sammy) and awesome RP was 5 Karma.
You should seriously cut down on that Karma output, man. Before you know it you will be having to throw all kinds of suped-up monstrosities at your players to get any kind of challenge.
Trust me, if you want the whole SR experience dole out karma nice and slow. Half the fun is being the scum of the earth trying to just pay the rent! Especially once they do achieve such levels as you dole out like candy (No offense intended, I do understand some GMs love high powered games) they will really appreciate it due to the scratching they had to do to deserve it. Your job as a GM is to punish and fuck over your runners, not coddle them in velvet cribs of Karma!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Okay, I'm sorry, every group is unique and needs different treatment. That said...

Yes. Spirits love Karma. Its the only way that free spirits can become stronger, so I presume that non-free spirits still enjoy the life giving substance. At the very least its a sacrifice you make to mirror the spirit's sacrifice as a sign of respect for an equal. Keeps spirits form using their edge when you try and boss em around.

[Crusher Bob]

~1 karma per hour of actual game time is pretty much inline with the SR karma awards I've seen. So if those two sessions each lasted 6 hours, where's the complaint about giving out scads of karma? The main concern is balancing Y rewards along with karma rewards so that the mundanes don't get left in the dust by the adepts and mages (er, left more in the dust than they already are, anyway). For an award of 12 karma the disposable income racked up for the same time period should probably be in the 20-40K Y range.

[KurenaiYami]

12 Karma!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
Christ on a bicycle man!
The most I ever gave for supreme bravery (He accepted the challange of mono-e-mono combat with a juicer street sammy) and awesome RP was 5 Karma.
You should seriously cut down on that Karma output, man. Before you know it you will be having to throw all kinds of suped-up monstrosities at your players to get any kind of challenge.
Trust me, if you want the whole SR experience dole out karma nice and slow. Half the fun is being the scum of the earth trying to just pay the rent! Especially once they do achieve such levels as you dole out like candy (No offense intended, I do understand some GMs love high powered games) they will really appreciate it due to the scratching they had to do to deserve it. Your job as a GM is to punish and fuck over your runners, not coddle them in velvet cribs of Karma!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

But I like throwing the suped up monstrosities at them. Half of my fun is knowing I can write just about any number I want for his stats.

Besides, the fact that the party's group dynamic keeps switching around makes creating challenges that can be accomplished fairly difficult. Prior to this recent turn of events, they had no stealth abilities or Perception! They also have no hacker/technomancer, so they can't do anything of significance with the Matrix.

My hope is that if they get enough Karma, they'll have enough of every skill for me to throw them at whatever.

Because honestly, with the "coddling" I'm doing already over three sessions we've had four character deaths. I don't see how they are meant to survive to get to any sort of high challenge area.

~1 karma per hour of actual game time is pretty much inline with the SR karma awards I've seen. So if those two sessions each lasted 6 hours, where's the complaint about giving out scads of karma? The main concern is balancing Y rewards along with karma rewards so that the mundanes don't get left in the dust by the adepts and mages (er, left more in the dust than they already are, anyway). For an award of 12 karma the disposable income racked up for the same time period should probably be in the 20-40K Y range.

Two sessions, 18 hours total. Normally sessions are from 2 PM to 12 AM Saturdays, but one got delayed until 4 PM.

The two characters who haven't died yet have been given 53k total, minus the cost of four months living expenses and the 10% Fixer fee. So yeah, around your estimates.

Really, they would have gotten slightly less, but when the OP died...the lump sum got divided by fewer people.

[ElFenrir]

Im going to second going either dwarf of ork for a mage.

Both classes make beefy mages. Dwarf Willpower is a big help with drain. The big thing with these guys is you still have really good mental stats(Dwarves take no penalties at all here), are inexpensive, and you have to devote very little to Physical attributes-leaving more for those stealthy skills. In addition, being naturally pretty tough(Orks start with body 4, enough to wear a good jacket, dwarves 2 but you can get to a 4 with only 20 BP), they have survivability if the proverbial poo launches itself at the fan.

It's a little minmaxy, sure, but if you have trouble with survivability and the party is generally pretty tough; it might help you. Stealth and Invisibility are good spells, Shadow as well, and then you can cherrypick a couple of health or combat spells. It's not too expensive to get a decent Infiltration skill, and it's worth it.

Then getting everyone on the same page of sneaking around could help as well.

[toturi]

Human
Preferably Intuition Tradition(requires Street Magic) with a spirit with Guard and Concealment as base powers
Stealth group(can simply buy up Infiltration if you cannot get an Intuition tradition)
Trid Phantasm(ask your GM first, since you can conceivably create the scene that the room/corridor/hallway/etc you and your team mates are in is empty)
(if not, then) Improved Invisibility and Stealth

Get your Summoning dice pool to 8 at least. Summon said spirit(as specified above). Get spirit to Guard and Conceal you(and your teammates if you wish). Now cast spells and sneak around(remember you cannot glitch while under the protection of Guard).

[Whipstitch]

Toturi already brought up Trid Phantasm, and actually, I recommend it even if your GM doesn't let it emulate invisibility. A little creativity makes it an incredible spell.

My favorite spells, in no particular order: Mana Static, Trid Phantasm, Physical Mask, Heal, Invisibility, Fix, Levitation, Turn To Goo, Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, Detect Life. Stun Bolt/Ball is OK too, since it's a Mana spell and has uses on the Astral. Increase Reflexes has its uses too, but generally, the way I try to play a mage is by relying on combat drugs for passes and neutralizing threats on the first pass if possible or by staying in cover and letting the Samurai handle it if I don't think that's really an option.

[Onin the Shade]

Thanks for all the information, was working on a human mage that was trying to be sneaky and such, with decent spellcasting. Was gonna post it, but after that orc was posted, i feel ashamed at how long my build took me to figure out and how much crap it is compared. the intuition build wont work unfortunately, because we have no access to the book, and im not buying my GM a book, which would in turn make me purchase 2 if i wanted to use it at home. he did have a 7 in spell casting due to aptitude, but now that i look at that orc, ive come to relaise that i dont need 14 spells, i can do what i want just fine with 5 or so, which saves me about 25 points. will have to think about him so more.

[Whipstitch]

What's your group make up like? Is everyone really focused in their particular roles or are you on a team full of more generalized characters? Because that will inform a lot of your other decisions.

For example, my group tends towards very specialized characters that tend towards what other groups would consider super specialists and likely even just plain outright munchkinry. Everyone has a specific role and everyone does their job frighteningly well, which explains why I lean more towards spells that cannot be easily reproduced via mundane methods such as Mana Static, Physical Mask, Trid Phantasm, and Turn To Goo (disabling people without harming them can be surprisingly difficult, otherwise) as opposed to Combat Spells, which are wonderful but don't really do anything in the big scheme of things that a truly fearsome samurai can't approximate with his weapons. Basically, in my group, I am far more valuable for my Astral skills, Counterspelling and Spirit summoning (and busting) capabilities a lot more than I am for my Stun Ball.

On the other hand, if you're in a group of generalists with a wide array of tools but little brute force or you already have another Magician in the group who is heavy on the utility, being a full-on Illusions & Combat Spell artillery monkey could be just what the doctor ordered.

P.S. Your group doesn't have Street Magic and thus no Mana Static? My condolences. Just to give you a hint of what you're missing out on: It has a drain code of (F ÷ 2) + 4, and it still just might be my favorite spell. Then again, I just might be biased from that time I nuked a couple Shedim who were after my shoes or the time I used it to spank a Force 9 Spirit I ran into on the Astral solo (remind me to send flowers and chocolates to whoever decided Edge should uncap hits). Thank Dunkelzahn for Cerebral Boosters and Trauma Dampers though. The drain is hellish.

[KurenaiYami]

What's your group make up like?

We have a "cowboy" character who is very specialized in the ways of Revolvers. Dice pool of 19, I believe. And that's basically the only roll he makes, aside from Perception, which he defaults on for a total of 2 dice, unless using his cybereyes, in which case it's 5.

Another guy's more specialized in rifles. He's been absent from a third of the sessions, but he seems fairly specialized in that as well. Not quite as many dice as the cowboy, but he seems equally bad at sneaking and perceiving.

And the third member changes characters every session. So we don't know what he'll be this time.

[Crusher Bob]

Here's a sample more optimized cyber-mage build:

390 points

Ork
Edges: Full mage (logic based tradition), Mentor Spirit
Flaws: 35 points, your choice

Body 4
Agility 1(3)
Reaction 2(4)
Strength 3
Charisma 4
Intuition 3
Logic 4(6)
Willpower 5

Edge 1
Magic 5(4)

Essence: 5.0

Spellcasting 6
Counterspelling 4
Summoning 4
Binding 4

Etiquette 1
Con 1

Infiltration 4
Dodge 4

Perception 4
Assensing 3

Spells: 6, your choice

Contacts: 8 points

Gear 22,750 left from 220,000

Force 2 power focus, force 3 sustaining focus

Ware: (.68 cyber, .64 bio, 1.0 total)
Cerebral Booster 2 Alpha
Muscle Toner 2 Alpha

Reaction Enhancer 2 Alpha
Vision Enhancment 3
Flare Compensation

So you get 12 dice for spellcasting, 11 dice for drain resistance, and have 10 points left over for another edge, more spells, or whatever

You can have 3 IP when binding Increased reflexes into your sustaining focus, you get 10 dice to see stuff (due to the vision enhancement 3). If you pick rat as a mentor spirit, you get 9 dice for infiltration tests.

For the cost of 22.5 BP of resources, 1 point of magic (10 BP) and 1 essence, you get 60 BP worth of stats (+2 AGL, +2 LOG, +2 REA, plus +3 visual perception, and flare compensation).

Note that magical traditions are quite simple to build:
Pick whether it is a materialization of possession tradition.
Pick a drain attribute from (INT, LOG, CHA)
Pick 5 spirits to associate with the 5 spell categories.

[Crusher Bob]

The exploits for a human build are slightly different. For humans you get a very high edge and use it for all it's worth:

You use cyber and bioware to hold up your wretched body.

Human cyber-mage (396 points)

Edges: Full Mage (Logic based tradition), Mentor spirit
Flaws: 35 points, your choice

Body 3
Agility 1(2)
Reaction 1(3)
Strength 1(2)
Charisma 5
Intuition 2
Logic 5 (7)
Willpower 5

Edge 6
Magic 5(4)

Essence 5.0

Spellcasting 6
Counterspelling 4
Summoning 4
Binding 4

Perception 1

Etiquette 1

Infiltration 4
Dodge 3

Spells: 6, your choice
Contacts: 7 points

Gear: 19,500 Y of 215,000Y Left
Power focus 2, Sustaining Focus 3

Cerebral Booster 2 Alpha
Muscle Toner 1 Alpha
Muscle Augmentation 1 Alpha
(if you don't mind STR 1, you can go drop the muscle augmentation 1, and get muscle toner 2 (for AGL 3) instead for 2000 more Y)

Reaction Enhancer 2 Alpha
Low-Light Vision
Vision Enhancement 3

--------

Remember that you can use vision enhancements you paid essence for to target spells. The ork has natural low light vision, the human gets mods for low light and pay essence for them.

Note that you have 6 edge, so any time you really want to blast someone you can lay out with 18 dice of spellcasting.

[Onin the Shade]

Note that magical traditions are quite simple to build:

Unfotunately my GM is kinda "by the books" but ill ask him about that, makeing a int tradition would make things easier. Been working on my character a lot today, and im so far pleased with his turnout. when i finish him tomorrow, ill post it.

[KurenaiYami]

Unfotunately my GM is kinda "by the books" but ill ask him about that, makeing a int tradition would make things easier. Been working on my character a lot today, and im so far pleased with his turnout. when i finish him tomorrow, ill post it.

Oh sure, right me off as the bad guy. I was "by the book" with D&D 3.5 and SWSE because the book actually had everything you needed. I don't think it's possible to be "by the books" in SR.

Also, keeping a lid on you guys is necessary. Remember when Bev tried using piano wire in combat, saying that is should work as a grapple check that instantly killed after two rounds? Or when Orko had that werewolf that would regenerate from anything, as long as silver didn't penetrate his heart? He was actually planning to eat his own limbs instead of pay for food. Or just yesterday when your brother tried to convince me that Stealth RFID tags made his Commlink signal invincible and untraceable.

You can make whatever you want. It just has to be okayed by me first before it sees play.

[Crusher Bob]

Without the more powerful spirit types in street magic, homemade traditions should balance just fine. The only problems will be with stuff like finding an initiatory group and dealing with background counts aspected toward the more common magical traditions.

[KurenaiYami]

Without the more powerful spirit types in street magic, homemade traditions should balance just fine. The only problems will be with stuff like finding an initiatory group and dealing with background counts aspected toward the more common magical traditions.

Dumb question: Should I know what a background count is? Or is that something also from Street Magic?

[Magus]

Background counts are mentioned in the Base Book. I cannot recall the page as of now. But it states it either subtracts from an awakened characters Magic Attribute. Most urban sprawls (according to the BBB) have a background count of -1. So a mage with a magic attribute of 5 would be effectivly a 4 inside a background count sprawl. So overcasting was a 5 and caused physical drain Spirits lost a point of force. etc etc.

[KurenaiYami]

It's not in the Index, so I'm still questioning it. I'd need more information before I just tell the OP that his Magic is one lower in cities.

[fulcra]

Or when Orko had that werewolf that would regenerate from anything, as long as silve didn't penetrate his heart? He was actually planning to eat his own limbs instead of pay for food.

lol. reminds me of the group in DnD who held a troll head prisoner and 'stirred' his brains as a form of torture. "wtf!!? stop torturing him! he doesn't know anything! You've stirred all the information away!" "it's ok, he doesn't remember we're torturing him."

[KurenaiYami]

lol. reminds me of the group in DnD who held a troll head prisoner and 'stirred' his brains as a form of torture. "wtf!!? stop torturing him! he doesn't know anything! You've stirred all the information away!" "it's ok, he doesn't remember we're torturing him."

"And that, son, is how we defined Chaotic Neutral back in my day."