Errata issue: Stoner Ares M202 Recoil Comp, Seriously, wtf?! Options

[ToreadorVampire]

Edit - OK, this thread has changed from the title line a little. It started off with me misreading the table in the book and talking about the wrong gun - I'm actually talking about the Ingram White Knight

I'll keep this concise:

Page 310 BBB: Stoner Ares M202 is listed with Recoil Comp 5(6)

wtf? No, really, wtf?

Do we think that is a typo that should have been errata'd or what? Gun doesn't mention any gas vent 5 system or anything like that.

[Jaid]

I'll keep this concise:

Page 310 BBB: Stoner Ares M202 is listed with Recoil Comp 5(6)

wtf? No, really, wtf?

Do we think that is a typo that should have been errata'd or what? Gun doesn't mention any gas vent 5 system or anything like that.

in my PDF, it has '-'

the white knight, on the other hand, has 5(6), which is probably what you're looking at. unless your copy is messed up.

[ToreadorVampire]

OK ... forget I even started this topic ...

I was reading the table like a complete idiot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) , and making a kneejerk reaction based on it.

Now reading the correct gun description I see that the White Knight says it has a wacky GV5 system and that the gun can't be modified at all. That's not so bad since you're then capped at 6 points of RC.

OK ... erm, let us never speak of it again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Shrike30]

I might be mis-remembering the description, but my read of the WK said that the gas vent system can't be modded, not that the entire weapon was unmodifiable.

Since a heavy barrel, foregrip, and an electronic firing mechanism puts it up to 8(9) RC, I've got a vested interest in knowing if your read is the correct one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[ToreadorVampire]

my read of the WK said that the gas vent system can't be modded, not that the entire weapon was unmodifiable.

Well, I consider this a typo/mistake anyway - since the game system does not define any way to modify a gas vent system.

Seeing as a GV 5 system already goes 66% above the game system limit for a GV system (inside a pretty much 'off-the-shelf' weapon) for balance reasons I interpreted that to mean "the gun can't be further modified". I don't believe it should be possible to modify any heavy weapon such that you can just fire it on full auto every combat round with impunity (not even having to consider recoil penalties) without either a gyromount, or a tripod or equivalent "heavy recoil compensation".

However, that's interpretation and not RAW - the RAW only says that the GV system can't be modified, whatever that's supposed to mean.

[Fortune]

Ingram White Knight: When you're looking for a good bang for your buck, the White Knight is your kind of gun. It's equipped with a detachable folding stock, and an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded.

Note the wording. It does not say '... an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation that cannot be further upgraded'. It is a complete sentence. The entire sentence describes the weapons integral 'modifications' (all two of them), and goes on to state that the weapon cannot have any more modifications done. Seems clear to me.

[Shrike30]

I think this is one of those "floating comma" problems with English. If it was intended to say that the IWK was un-upgradeable, it should have been written thus:

"It's equipped with a detachable folding stock,(remove this comma) and an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation(add comma here) and (add "it" or "the weapon") cannot be further upgraded."

As written, what it says is that:
1) It's equipped with a detatchable folding stock, and
2) (It has) an integral gas vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and (this gas vent system) cannot be further upgraded.

Looking at what's written, I'm okay with people interpreting it either way, but the grammar nazi in me is inclined to go with my "as written" interpretation. I'm aware, of course, that there's many little grammar slips throughout the rulebooks.

[Larme]

I think Shrike is correct. When I read this, there was no question in my mind whether it was the gas vent or the entire gun that couldn't be upgraded. I don't know much about grammar, but I have a very good grammar-dar that knows how things are supposed to be read most of the time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Further support is the fact that, if you read it to say it was totally unupgradeable, that would prevent you from using a gyromount or a bipod or tripod, the only things actually in the BBB that could actually improve the White Knight's recoil comp. That just doesn't pass the giggle test -- it has such a good gas vent system that an actual, physical mount on a tripod couldn't help it? Huh??? And they definitely weren't referring to the recoil compensating mods in Arsenal, because they did not yet exist... They were like a year in the future. The fact is, if they wanted to clarify that it was totally unupgradeable, now that Arsenal actually gives us upgrades that could apply to it, they could just stick that in an errata. They haven't, so let's just stick to common sense, neh?

[Fortune]

Further support is the fact that, if you read it to say it was totally unupgradeable, that would prevent you from using a gyromount or a bipod or tripod ...

Not true. You can always add externally-mounted attachments, just not 'integral modifications'.

[Larme]

Fine. You just proved my point even more. If we accept your interpretation, then the SR4 devs wrote specifically that the White Knight, which appears in the BBB, can't be further upgraded, when there is not one single integral recoil upgrade in the BBB that could actually be applied to it. Did they intend to exclude recoil upgrades that didn't even exist until a year or two later? I don't think so. QED.

[Fortune]

Shrug. Arsenal didn't exist in print, but the book's core concepts (which definitely include weapon modifications) were certainly being taken into consideration when the core book was being written.

[Larme]

The idea that the devs were able to plan that far in advance is lolworthy. The devs have, on numerous occasions, failed to make the rulebooks internally consistent. Arguing that they actually wrote rules anticipating what would be published years in the future can only be answered with a few of these: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Regardless, the grammar is unambiguous. Your refusal to accept that isn't relevant to the argument. You go ahead and play it your way, but this discussion is not going to go anywhere, so let's end it, k?

[Shrike30]

Given that the IWK starts with 5(6) RC, it's not exactly lacking for compensation. Certainly, having a portable heavy weapon that's easily modded to the point where it can go full auto with no recoil at all while still being fired from the shoulder (no tripod/bipod necessary) can be a game balance issue for some games. There's no such thing as an Upgrade... there's Accessories and Modifications, which only leaves us with more amusing oddball details to run circles with. I've really got no interest in doing so, however.

My read on the sentence structure in the book is that it indicates you can't alter the gas vent, but that the RAW could be easily and understandably misinterpreted (due to the distinction involving finicky reading of commas, and everyone being aware that the RAW itself doesn't have perfect grammar) to mean that the weapon is unupgradeable. If that means "no mods" or "no mods or accessories" or "no accessories" is up to whoever's interpreting the sentence. Personally, I don't think it has a huge game-shattering effect any way it gets read, and people should do whatever works for their games.

[Larme]

You're right of course. Whether or not the White Knight can take additional recoil mods, it is a sweet piece of equipment. The only gun (in the core book anyway) to hold a candle to it is the Alpha, since the Alpha (with an added gas ven 3) can get the same amount of recoil comp, with an underbarrel grenade launcher. But the Knight still wins out on range and ammo capacity.

[Fortune]

The idea that the devs were able to plan that far in advance is lolworthy.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Have a nice day.

[ToreadorVampire]

Mmm, I think my comment here is regardless of grammar nazi-ism. It's just a game balance thing to me. Even if it said in black-and-white that the gun has a gas vent 5, a shoulder brace and the book read "the gas vent system cannot be modified, however the gun can", I would query it as a typo and house-rule it anyway.

In my mind (with game balance) heavy weapons are a rare and special thing that deserve respect from the players. Being able to swing one around on full autofire like it was a pea-shooter (not using one of the really big mount systems) is something that should be impossible with any heavy weapon (IMHO).

With the Arsenal mods (assuming the gun can take them), it's possible to have the White Knight fired on full auto without any of of the bigger recoil compensators. Now, whilst the devs wouldn't have any of the rules in Arsenal ready to roll when the core book was printed, they must have known "there will be some more ways to compensate recoil in there".

To me - saying that the White Knight can't accept any further gun mods (of any kind) balances out the fact that "off the shelf" in it's (comparatively low) availability, it comes with more recoil comp than any other gun in the system, including a "can't exist in any other gun in the game system" gas vent 5. Since the WK is a heavy weapon, and I don't like heavy weapons being fired on full auto without a mounting platform of some type (although I realise with a cyberarm gyromount you can still do it, but then - a cyber gyromount is a hefty investment and a specialist bit of kit, so I'll allow that). Shock pads/Heavy barrel/customised grip and all of that guff, I'll say that doesn't apply to a WK, since they break my take on the game.

It's actually Arsenal's existance that supports my decision actually, if Arsenal had included the ability to put a gas vent 5 into another gun as a modification then maybe I would have ruled the other way (since then the WK would be balanced with other guns, albeit that balance would have made it really easy to fire any gun with no recoil!).

Also - again - I point out that the interpretation "the gas vent system cannot be modified" doesn't make any sense, since neither the BBB nor Arsenal contain any rules for modifying a gas vent system.

[Shrike30]

It's possible, with mods, to get any machinegun up to 7 points of RC, 8 if you don't use a full burst, and that only involves tossing on an autoadjusting weight, gas vent 3, personalized grip and a shock pad. Compensating for recoil got made real easy this time around... i think that ends up running something like 750 nuyen to do.

[ToreadorVampire]

Yeah, I just don't like that too much ... anyway - it's done now ...

http://toreadorvampire.co.uk/rpg/shadowrun#IngramWhiteKnight

Being able to fire a Heavy Machine Gun on a full burst from the hip without caring about recoil is (to me) a bad thing, and not the direction I want my game to go in. So, I guess this then becomes a "my game balance is different to your game balance" issue.

In fact ... I may even add a strength requirement to even attempting that move without a gyromount ... that's for later thought - at least now the "White Knight" hole is closed.

[MaxHunter]

Hey, I just got a player modding his with an electronic firing system; It's not a huge game balance issue for me. Being the character an ork tank (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) : (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) he already has 2 points of natural recoil compensation, plus the gun's own it was only a dice we were talking about. One dice mod for 2000 nuyen it is quite all right in my book.

Besides, it makes sense to me; according to my reading of the rules, it's the gas vent which provides the recoil compensation, so IMO there is "room" in the gun for an electronic firing system. If they really wanted it they could have added something into Arsenal to ret-con older guns and list their included upgrades (as I believe they did with some vehicles)... Verbs have a tendency to stick to the closest preceding noun, that's it.

Cheers!

Max

[ornot]

It wouldn't be terribly off to consider that the integral recoil compensation of the Whiteknight includes mods like barrel weights as well as the gas vent.

I've not got my copy with me right now, but what would you need to add to get 5 points of RC as the mods rules currently stand? Assume that the WK has those mods already in it, and they can't be removed or augmented (for example if you needed a foregrip for the listed RC, you could not fit a grenade launcher).

[Larme]

Mmm, I think my comment here is regardless of grammar nazi-ism. It's just a game balance thing to me. Even if it said in black-and-white that the gun has a gas vent 5, a shoulder brace and the book read "the gas vent system cannot be modified, however the gun can", I would query it as a typo and house-rule it anyway.

Oh you crazy house rules people (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You have to remember that the Ares Alpha, with a gas vent 3, and a shock pad, has the same amount of recoil as the White Knight. Plus an underbarrel grenade launcher. All you're going to do by house ruling the White Knight is cause people to switch to the Alpha, a shorter ranged but ultimately more destructive weapon. If you house rule the White Knight for game balance, you'd want to house rule other guns that are just as good/better so they won't become "duh" alternatives, and then you're stuck in a vicious circle of never ending house rules. But If that's what floats your boat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Larme]

Hey, I just got a player modding his with an electronic firing system; It's not a huge game balance issue for me. Being the character an ork tank (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) : (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) he already has 2 points of natural recoil compensation, plus the gun's own it was only a dice we were talking about. One dice mod for 2000 nuyen it is quite all right in my book.

Besides, it makes sense to me; according to my reading of the rules, it's the gas vent which provides the recoil compensation, so IMO there is "room" in the gun for an electronic firing system. If they really wanted it they could have added something into Arsenal to ret-con older guns and list their included upgrades (as I believe they did with some vehicles)... Verbs have a tendency to stick to the closest preceding noun, that's it.

"Room" is not a reading of the rules, it's a house rule. Gas vents and electronic firing systems are compatible. Special gas vents unique to the WK are not excluded.

It wouldn't be terribly off to consider that the integral recoil compensation of the Whiteknight includes mods like barrel weights as well as the gas vent.

I've not got my copy with me right now, but what would you need to add to get 5 points of RC as the mods rules currently stand? Assume that the WK has those mods already in it, and they can't be removed or augmented (for example if you needed a foregrip for the listed RC, you could not fit a grenade launcher).

It would be off, if you're going with RAW. It has no barrel weights, just a special gas vent system that provides 5 recoil. You can pretend that it has more mods than that to make up its 5 recoil comp, but that's a house rule.

[rant]
What's the instant compulsion people have to nerf everything that's good? You guys DO realize that it's futile to try and nerf everything that's powerful, right? If you make the WK worse, players will seize on another thing that's powerful, like the Alpha. If you nerf that, they're onto the next thing. It's like whack-a-mole. If you act this finnicky, houseruling everything that isn't just exactly absolutely right according to your generalized gut feelings, you're doing little more than making the game more confusing by adding extra rules that people need to learn in addition to the book rules. And you're putting pressure on your players to find loopholes and other broken things. Your life as a GM will be easy if the players just pick up a White Knight and go "oo, this gun is cool, watch me fire without recoil." Firing a machinegun without recoil is the very least of a GM's worries! It's probably one of the least cheesy combat options I can think of! If you end up house ruling the WK, your players are going to start REALLY abusing the rules. Like modifying an MGL-12 to fire fully automatic! You think the WK is bad, a full burst of 10 HE grenades will make you shit your pants. Or even worse, what if they fire 2 HE grenades, 2 flash-bangs, 2 flechette grenades, 2 white phosphorus grenades, and 2 incendiary grenades? THAT will be fun for you. If you just let your players use the basic stuff in the core book as written, they will probably not range as far looking for the stuff that is actually broken and deserves a house rule. You will be able to save your house rules for things that actually hurt the game, instead of just basic, everyday options that just feel slightly too good.[/rant]

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I'd say it's a houserule to say that the WK's description is wrong, and that it actually CAN be modified. If you're going to stick to RAW to avoid getting caught in an endless cycle of houserules, then you need to actually stick to RAW, rather than pick one houserule and say another will lead to such a cycle.

I don't know how the WK works. Maybe the gas vent system is a lot more integral to the design of the gun than other GVs, which would explain why you can't buy GVs for other guns that give that much RC, and also why you can't just go taking apart the WK to put other stuff in. Personally, as GM, I'd allow a tripod mount, but not much else. I see no problem with reading what's in the BBB as applying to stuff in Arsenal. Books like Arsenal aren't meant to "trump" the BBB, just add more options. And let's face it, no matter what mistakes the devs have made in the past, I think we ALL knew Arsenal was coming, from the moment SR4 was announced (and, being devs, they knew from the moment it was conceived). As long as there's any form of SR, there's going to be some form of supplemental book in the works to give people more guns and more things to do with them.

[Larme]

I think this is one of those "floating comma" problems with English. If it was intended to say that the IWK was un-upgradeable, it should have been written thus:

"It's equipped with a detachable folding stock,(remove this comma) and an integral gas-vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation(add comma here) and (add "it" or "the weapon") cannot be further upgraded."

As written, what it says is that:
1) It's equipped with a detatchable folding stock, and
2) (It has) an integral gas vent system that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and (this gas vent system) cannot be further upgraded.

Looking at what's written, I'm okay with people interpreting it either way, but the grammar nazi in me is inclined to go with my "as written" interpretation. I'm aware, of course, that there's many little grammar slips throughout the rulebooks.

This is the best account of how the RAW ought to be read. The only rebuttals to it have been "that's not how *I* read it." But the BBB is written in English, not YouSpeak. You read it how you want, but until someone comes up with something better, that's what I consider the RAW. I don't argue to be right, I argue to find out what the best answer is. Because Shrike has provided the best answer, and stands unrebutted, it is the gas vent that cannot be modified. I think the reason they told us you can't modify the gas vent, even though gas vents ordinarily can't be modified, is to make perfectly clear that you can't add another gas vent, or you can't take the gas vent out of the WK and put it elsewhere. It was redundant, and ultimately, it has confused a lot of people on this board. But gramatically, that's what they were referring to. The only way to read it the other way is to decide that the comma in the RAW was misplaced. That's what you call deciding that the RAW is wrong. That is what you're doing, and accusing me of doing.

And from a policy perspective, you do not gain anything by ruling the other way. By reading it your way, you just shove everyone into using the Alpha, which is in many respects a better weapon. When two interpretations of the rules are possible, you ought to pick the best one. Here, because the WK is actually not unique in terms of its potential for recoil comp, all your interpretation would do is turn it from a great option into a sub-optimal option. Having less optimal options means less character diversity, means a worse game. This comes at your own expense. Even if there was a solid grammatical argument backing up the opposing side, and reasonable minds could differ, your interpretation would still come out on the bottom. To me, it stinks of knee-jerk nerf-batting, making good things bad just because they're good.

[ToreadorVampire]

This is the best account of how the RAW ought to be read.

Yes, I used the words "house rule" and conceded that by RAW you can modify the gun as much as you want.

And from a policy perspective, you do not gain anything by ruling the other way.

...except for ensuring that "if you want to use a heavy weapon machinegun on full autofire, you need to be be using a mount platform of some kind.

By reading it your way, you just shove everyone into using the Alpha, which is in many respects a better weapon.

But it's not a heavy weapon machinegun - thus lower range, less damage and less "scary" - assault rifles are a penny a pound. if you want to put a GV3, shock pad, foregrip and (whatever other mods you need to stack to get RC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) into an Alpha that's cool ... that's my limit - an Alpha (or any assault rifle) is the best gun I will allow to be modified such that is can be fired with impunity like that, but not a heavy weapon. They're called "heavy weapons" for a reason.

Anyway - at this point we are nearing a debate which I often have - which is:

"I'm not playing the game as a tournament, and the RAW doesn't matter too much to me, I'm not running SR missions, nor am I interested in doing so. It doesn't matter what rules I play with my group, since there are no 'game police' that will come and tell me badwrongfun"

And I think we can leave it at that ... I think we all said everything we wanted to say a fair few posts ago ...

Agree to disagree I guess.