Cyberlimb armor--do you stack it or average it? Options

[Ranger]

How do the rules work for cyberlimb armor? I know that each point of Armor Value is treated as Ballistic and Impact armor. But, do you stack the AV for all of your cyberlimbs, or do you average the AV just as you do with attribute ratings?

For example, if you have a left cyberarm with armor 1, right cyberarm with armor 2, left cyberleg with armor 3, and right cyberleg with armor 4, do gain +10 (1+2+3+4=10) Ballistic and Impact armor, or do you gain +2 ((1+2+3+4/4)=2.5, rounded down to 2) Ballistic and Impact armor?

[Malicant]

It seems as if it stacks.

Don't worry, isn't as bad as it seems at first glance.

[Larme]

I'm pretty sure the RAW doesn't say. All it says is when you're dealing with your whole body, you average the attribute values of the limbs. Armor isn't an attribute, but I think it applies.

On the other hand, having shin guards and forearm guards adds armor to your overall rating, so maybe having armor on just one arm would stack! I guess what it comes down to is I have no idea! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

It stacks, but unfortunatly I'm at work and don't have my book to provide the reference.

Cyberlimbs, helmets, shields, FFBA, PPP all stack on top of everything else
Of these only FFBA counts towards encumberance and that is at 1/2 rating
(Shields apply their own encumberance penalty, but its not due to their armor)

Armor Sets stack within the armor set. Otherwise all other forms of armor do not stack, but do add together for purposes of figuring encumberance.

[Stahlseele]

that'S the trouble with a combat system without hit-zones, the overall power of your attack determines if you hit on armor or not *g*
in SR3 this was emulated by the damage staging, each two successes meant from light to medium and in the end to deadly, meaning you basically landed a head-shot or somrthing like that . .

[Ranger]

Thank you for the replies. I guess I'll have it stack, then.

Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.

Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

How about this problem. Called shot to negate armor...

One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.


Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.

[Ranger]

How about this problem. Called shot to negate armor...

One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.


Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.

I was just thinking something similar a little earlier.

But, I realize why the rules are this way. Otherwise, EVERYONE would be making called shots to unarmored body parts, and you'd have to walk around in a plassteel suit of full plate mail ifyou want to live, which would become totally ridiculous. Realistic? Maybe. Fun? No.

[Malicant]

It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ranger]

It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ahh, good point. Alrighty, then for sure stacking AV it is.

I don't think any of my players would be crazy enough to replace all body parts with cyberlimbs, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Moon-Hawk]

It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I know it's pretty much settled, but I just want to chime in to /agree with Malicant. It looks really horribly broken when you consider how much armor someone could have. But it's at the expense of pretty much everything else, and if your game is really so high-powered that this is actually achievable, there are a lot of much cooler things that are achievable as well.
Why be Robocop when you can be the Major?

[Stahlseele]

i tend to disagree and bring up the concept of brick . . in the less specialized version a bit tempered down and made more usefull, he was STILL scary as drek in the compartment of taking/giving damage and could do some other things . .

[Malicant]

Sure, with the right min/maxing this can end very horrible. But what can't?
Simple solution: Shoot the player that tries to do that in the face. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Moon-Hawk]

i tend to disagree and bring up the concept of brick . . in the less specialized version a bit tempered down and made more usefull, he was STILL scary as drek in the compartment of taking/giving damage and could do some other things . .

He could certainly be a problem, depending on play style. That's what the GM approval stage is for.
If somebody wanted to try that in one of my typical games I'd try to talk them out of it for their own good. If the run has gotten to the point where absorbing large amounts of damage is useful, 9 times out of 10 this means the run has already failed miserably.

[Ranger]

Magic and subduing come to mind as potentially viable ways to stop a super-armored cyberlimbed character. So, as Malicant said, I now don't see the problem with such a character. Toxins, diseases, and so forth work just as well on such a character as they do on non-cybered characters.

I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.

I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.

[Doughboy]

With so much armor you'd be losing the big advantage of the extra physical boxes from your cyberlimbs as well since prettymuch all of the damage you're taking will become stun damage.

[The Jopp]

Thank you for the replies. I guess I'll have it stack, then.

Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.

Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It does stack.

Besides, think about it - people made out of titanium usually ignore weak things like 5 grams of lead.

I would on the other hand only count the locations armour value when dealing with called shots. Aiming for someone with head armour of 2 and an armour jacket it would be armour 10 not 30.

[Ranger]

It does stack.

Besides, think about it - people made out of titanium usually ignore weak things like 5 grams of lead.

Yes, realistically that is true. In terms of game balance and even game fun, this should not be true.

I would on the other hand only count the locations armour value when dealing with called shots. Aiming for someone with head armour of 2 and an armour jacket it would be armour 10 not 30.

Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!

[Sombranox]

Total interpretation, but I kind of always interpreted the called shot for avoiding armor to be to avoid worn armor, with innate armor, underarmor and cyberlimb armor all still remaining.

In other words, you can call shot to try and avoid that armor jacket that you can clearly see, but when the bullet deflects off the cybertorso you didn't realize was underneath, you get to go "oh shit" and realize they've got something you can't account for.

Then again, I've also just stopped trying to interpret it before and just house ruled that it was a variable value that the shooter chooses. Take a -5 penalty and they get 5 less dice of armor to roll. Take a -30 penalty and they get 30 less dice of armor.

[Malicant]

Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!

Mr. Lucky can, but let's not go there any further.

[thiagão]

Magic and subduing come to mind as potentially viable ways to stop a super-armored cyberlimbed character. So, as Malicant said, I now don't see the problem with such a character. Toxins, diseases, and so forth work just as well on such a character as they do on non-cybered characters.

I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.

I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.

Couldn´t agree more, onde had a character like that got his ass kicked by an air elemental.

[The Jopp]

Yes, realistically that is true. In terms of game balance and even game fun, this should not be true.

Trust me, BULLETproof they may be but there are SO many things people can do to you. Someone with armour 30 is a typical one-shot bunny good at ONE thing, very much like others in the team, a specific specialist. Yes, 30 in armour can be bizarre, but it is also simple to create a troll with second hand bioware and get almost the same effect - cheaper.

For example, how well does someone out of titanium float? What ELSE could he have used all those cyberlimb capacity for?

Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!

True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.

[Tarantula]

This thread reminded me that I ought to redo brick now that arsenal is out. Just a few quick minor tweaks and he has since lost the ballistic shield (didn't need it) and his armor has gone up to an impressive 26/25. Along with a nice chem protection mod on his FFBA suit, and non-conductive on his armor jacket, means that taking him down will either require gas attacks, (note to self, get an internal air tank in one of those limbs) or someone who is very lucky succeeding against avoiding armor with a blowdart gun or somesuch. Anyway, for all your fun and whatnot, here he is again.

[ Spoiler ]

Brick Redux

Race:40bp
Troll 40bp

Qualities:0bp 30bp
Ambidextrous 5bp
Exceptional Attribute(Body) 20bp
Biocompatibily (Cyber) 10bp

Bad Luck -20bp
Severe Allergy Unc (Silver) -15bp

Attributes:225bp 265bp

Armor: 26/25
Physical Monitor: 19boxes
Stun Monitor: 10boxes

Bod: 5 11(13) 75bp
Agi: 1 1(4) 0bp
Rea: 1 4(5) 30bp
Str: 5 6(6) 10bp
Cha: 1 2 10bp
Int: 1 4 30bp
Log: 1 2 10bp
Wil: 1 4 30bp
Init: 2 7(9)
IP: 1 2
Edge: 1 4 30bp
Ess: 6 0.8

Skills: 76bp 341bp
Pistols 6 (Semi-Auto) 24bp
Unarmed Combat 4 16bp
Dodge 4 16bp
Perception(Visual) 2 10bp
Etiquette 2 8bp

Contacts: 16bp 356bp
Fixer (3/2) 5bp
Street Doc (5/6) 11bp

Gear: 43bp 215,000 Unspent: 500
P is for permitted items w/fake liscense. F is forbidden items.
Guns: 750
Ares Pred IV 350 P
200 reg ammo 400
Armor: 3900
Armor Jacket (8/6) 900
Mods:
Nonconductivity 6 1200
Shock Frills 200 P

FFBA Full-Suit (6/2) 1600
Mods:
Chem Protection 6 1500
Gel Packs(1/1) 1500 P
SecureTech PPP System
Forearm Guards(0/1) 200
Helmet(0/2) 100
Leg and Arm Casings(1/1) 350
Shin Guards(0/1) 150
Vitals Protector(1/1) 200

Helmet (+1/+2) 100

Ware: 183.15k
Alpha Wired 1 1.4ess 22k P

Custom Right Arm (.9 ess, +8 bod, 27k, 12 avail)
Enhancements: 4050
Body +3 600 3cap P
Strength +3 750 3cap P
Agility +3 750 3cap
Armor +2 600 4cap
CyberSafety 350 1cap
Biomonitor 1k 1cap

Custom Left Arm (.9 ess, +8 bod, 27k, 12 avail)
Enhancements: 14700
Body +3 600 3cap P
Strength +3 750 3cap P
Agility +3 750 3cap
Armor +2 600 4cap
Radar Sensor 4 12k 2cap


Custom Right Leg (.9 ess, +8 bod, 27k, 12 avail)
Enhancements: 4700
Body +3 600 3cap P
Strength +3 750 3cap P
Agility +3 750 3cap
Armor +2 600 4cap
Large Smuggling Compartment 2k 5cap

Custom Left Leg (.9 ess, +8 bod, 27k, 12 avail)
Enhancements: 4700
Body +3 600 3cap P
Strength +3 750 3cap P
Agility +3 750 3cap
Armor +2 600 4cap
Large Smuggling Compartment 2k 5cap

Platelet Factories .2ess 25k

Other gear: 18200
Commlink: Meta Link w/Vector Xim 300
Fake Sin 4 4000
Fake Liscense 4 x14 5600
Goggles 50
+Smartlink 500 P
+Flare Comp 50
+Vision Enhancement 3 300
+Vision Magnification 100
Stim Patch 6 x8 1200
Trauma Patch x2 1000

Yamaha Growler 5500

[Tarantula]

Trust me, BULLETproof they may be but there are SO many things people can do to you. Someone with armour 30 is a typical one-shot bunny good at ONE thing, very much like others in the team, a specific specialist. Yes, 30 in armour can be bizarre, but it is also simple to create a troll with second hand bioware and get almost the same effect - cheaper.

For example, how well does someone out of titanium float? What ELSE could he have used all those cyberlimb capacity for?

Oh, you know, modular cyberlimbs and having the waterjet feet in a smuggling compartment would be one way to get around it.

True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.

Ok, well, then lets just ignore all the armor rules entirely. Why ignore the arms when you shoot at his head? Why don't you reduce the jacket stats some, cause some of the jacket is protecting his arms too, so thats like, -2 for the armor jacket because part of its on his arms, and those don't count. Oh, and the parts that are covering his legs, thats probably -1 or -2 there. So really, it should be like, 4 armor that counts towards the torso of an armor jacket. Since thats all your counting for a called shot to only hit his head. Why not just do -4 dp for +4dv called shot and say thats a head shot. Let his armor apply, because he has it. Unless you're going to houserule the entire armor system out for everyone to be location based, I'd say don't even touch it.

[Ranger]

True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.

I assume that you're trying to look at this from a semi-realistic standpoint, which is why you say count only the jacket and the head armor.

If that's the case, then how would an armored jacket count any more than an armored cybertorso? Or any other armored cyberlimb for that matter? From a realistic standpoint, the jacket and all limbs except the head should be moot.

But, if you made such a ruling in the game, then armor in general is useless.

Edit: I see that Tarantula beat me to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)