Dice Pool Inflation, Cutting it off at the root. Options

[nathanross]

Okay, so something that has been bouncing around in my head this week, the 4 = 6 baseline that differentiates SR4 from SR3. We have about 1.5x the DP in SR4, but at a constant +1TN. Thinking about this, I realized that the character creation value for SR4 are wrong. We still are caught up in the mindset of 6.

• 5 is the new base Racial modified limit
• Essence is now 5 for Metahumans (yes, I know cyberprices need tweaking)
• Magic, Resonance, and Edge can all be bought up to 5 at chargen for 10BP/point
• Physical and Mental attributes cost 10BP up to 4, and 20BP for 5 (this is before modifying numbers by metatype)
• 7 is the new Augmented maximum for humans. EDIT - (5*1.5 = 7.5, round down = 7)

It's getting late and this is only a start, but it is a start for sure.

Where else in the system do you see too large a starting DP? Please contribute things you think need changing.

Off the top of my head:

• Perception
• Hacking

[Crusher Bob]

Eh, all this system does is to change the minmax targets. Right now, the horribly minmaxed pornomancer gets 28 dice on his social skill of choice compared to the normal human skill level of 6-8. Just capping things heavy handed like you suggest just reduces the pronomancer to 24 dice and the normal guy to 4-6.

If you want to reduce dice pool inflation try out the following changes:

Augmented stat max is now current (natural) stat +3.
Kinestics costs 1 PP and is available at only one level.
Reduce most pool bonus items to level 1 (attention coprocessor, pheremones, etc)


For a more comprehensive fix, change character generation so that the costs are no longer linear, for example:

Unmodified stat cost:

CODE

Stat level    BP Cost
1               free
2                9
3               18
4               30
5               45
6               63

In addition, your chargen fix should make character generation use identical costs to character advancement (e.g. characters are built with karma, or BP are awarded instead karma).

[ElFenrir]

wel.....i mean, it's cool...but honestly I don't think i can agree with you here. In our games, the DP is just fine as it is. Cutting things off so badly here as a GENERAL act just tosses those times where you just want to play that high DP dude out the window, and i don't think that's right...some folks like to play a nice specialist. To me, the more options a player has(specialist, uber specialist, generalist, high power, mid power, low power), the better. Honestly i don't see the DPs being too high at all in SR4. Sure, the odd pornomancer sneaks through but that isn't the norm. I guess it depends on what you consider too high-in our games our specialists usually run 11-14 before mods like smartlinks and reach, for their main skills(about accurate, Pistols 5(+2) + Agility 4(7) for example. Personally, that's not unreasonable for a guy who's 26 years old and has been running the shadows for the past eight years. (Yeah, if we play ganger campaigns? Of course they are lower.)

That being said, this might be a good ''lower power'' OPTION to have available. But if this were the actual game, i think i wouldn't be as happy with it.

I dunno. We play a standard 400 BP game but with some houserules that ease certain things.

Personally, if they made a book that had a lower-power option(like you gave), AND a higher-power option(450-500 BPs) in there it would be great. There's nothing wrong with a game of any power, but I personally think in a BBB, they should introduce people in a game where they feel like they can really kick ass BUT have limitations(like the current 400 BP game) and then a GM can ease it up or down from there.

Just my opinion. Then again ive played in the same group for 13+ years so we have our style sort of settled in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: And i just read what Crusherbob said. Thing is, when you start nerfing the big guys(the pornomancer, the elf pistoleer adept), the little guys get nerfed too.

[Critias]

Okay, so something that has been bouncing around in my head this week, the 4 = 6 baseline that differentiates SR4 from SR3. We have about 1.5x the DP in SR4, but at a constant +1TN. Thinking about this, I realized that the character creation value for SR4 are wrong. We still are caught up in the mindset of 6.

• 5 is the new base Racial modified limit
• Essence is now 5 for Metahumans (yes, I know cyberprices need tweaking)
• Magic, Resonance, and Edge can all be bought up to 5 at chargen for 10BP/point
• Physical and Mental attributes cost 10BP up to 4, and 20BP for 5 (this is before modifying numbers by metatype)
• 7 is the new Augmented maximum for humans.

It's getting late and this is only a start, but it is a start for sure.

Where else in the system do you see too large a starting DP? Please contribute things you think need changing.

Off the top of my head:

• Perception
• Hacking

...why?

Not to be a jerk, but...just...why? What's the point or purpose, what's the gain of rewriting everything -- and it's really everything -- in SR4, to do this? Why does it matter?

[Larme]

Your fix doesn't solve the problem you're aiming at. You're reducing all dice pools by 1-3 dice. Did you think they were 1-3 dice too high in every case? Clearly, you're targeting the 20 DP monsters who virtually can't fail at a basic task, almost irrespective of the penalties. That is something that could be described as a systemic problem (I wouldn't, but it's fair). But people starting with 6's in skills and attributes? Far from it. If you dislike dice pool inflation, that's what you need to aim at: the inflation. Don't nerf the little guy.

If I wanted to stop DP inflation, I'd use a solution that's just as simple but a lot more effective: limit all skill pools to skill * 2.5, rounding up. So someone with a 6 could have a DP of 15, and someone with a 7 could have 18, and that's the highest it can possibly go. That's the way to stop DP inflation--put a hard cap on dice pools. If you just impose a general -1 or -2 penalty across the board, you'll have the exact same kind of DP inflation, only very very slightly mitigated. If 2.5 is too much for you, you could always lower the multiplier to suit your needs.

Just to be clear though, Shadowrun had always allowed for crazy superhuman ability. That's kind of the point of the system. It is not a simulationist system where people are limited to realistic levels. Characters are supposed to be able to have fantasy level badass-ness. And keep in mind also: if you limit the PCs, you limit your NPCs. Your players will become weaker, but the NPCs you use to swat them will also be messed up. You will have a harder time using the Iron Fist of GM Fiat, because by your own rules your NPCs have a limited power level.

[Daier Mune]

i think its a reasonable suggestion to reduce dicepools if one wanted. however, i think that instead of changing the whole ruleset it should be more of a gameplay option, as ElFenrir said. i know this won't jive with alot of people, but i think the GM needs to put thier foot down sometimes and say "you know what? no. you can't be a world-renownd specialist rolling 25 dice on (skill). change your character."

its unfortunate that that would have to happen, but players have to understand that they're participating in an interactive story, and are part of a team. specialists are good in large teams, but specializing to the point where you're over-the-top good in one role, and utter shit in everything else isn't helping the team. more than that, the GM has to scale up certain aspects of the game in order to keep things challenging for the over-specialized player. which means that Jerry Generalist rolling his 8 dice is utterly fucked when it comes to making a test against whatever monstrosity the GM had to cook up in order to keep Sally Specialist from getting bored.

if you want a superpowered (and hey, this is a world where i can put a shotgun inside my arm and a radar dish in my head, so why wouldn't you?) or low powered game i think it should just be up to the GM to state his case to the players before they make thier characters.

[ElFenrir]

Just to be clear though, Shadowrun had always allowed for crazy superhuman ability. That's kind of the point of the system. It is not a simulationist system where people are limited to realistic levels. Characters are supposed to be able to have fantasy level badass-ness. And keep in mind also: if you limit the PCs, you limit your NPCs. Your players will become weaker, but the NPCs you use to swat them will also be messed up. You will have a harder time using the Iron Fist of GM Fiat, because by your own rules your NPCs have a limited power level.

I like this quote. I mean, on one hand, Shadowrun is more a realistic in ways system; the people are(or at least were) human at one point. There are average joes in the world. Plenty of them. There are also people a cut above the rest. And yeah, i agree that players should be allowed to do some friggin cool stuff that they normally can't.

Generally speaking, this is who gets played. I mean, no rules are against you running a game where everyone plays 'joe average and works their way up''. Again, just opinion, but Im just missing where there needs to be hard and fast rules limiting the DPs. Now, Larme suggested a really good one IMO...Skillx2.5(i'd go as far as to even round up). That way, someone who pays dearly for something they really want can have it still. i tell you because im seeing it. I have the thread asking for advice on an adept. Ive never really gone over 5s in my skills before and i think my biggest DP was 15 AFTER smartlinks were involved, so make that a 13 to be sure. To get to a 15 unarmed DP, i really had to do some serious tweaking around to still have myself somewhat useful in a couple of other areas(ok, so there were easier ways i could have done this, absolutely...but i tried to keep in character scope at the same time. I think i managed to do a good job...super-good at what i wanted him to be at, still useful in a couple of other ways and all within the character concept.

If someone then told me they were dropping my DPs i'd a bit upset after all of that. I mean, if they tell me at FIRST the DP range should be something, well i'd play something else of course. But if they let this go thru and then suddenly say ''well, i wanna lower DPs of everyone''...then id be a little miffed. Some folks take it and run with it, not minding, but some of us tend to do(ok, a bit much) character agonizing to really build what's in their heads. Sometimes these concepts have some bigger dice pools attached. Sometimes not. The times that they are, i don't think makes the person a crazed munchkin trying to ruin fun. Sometimes we just get ideas and we want to play someone REALLY impressive at something to see how it flows.

Now, i know a concern with DPs is it upsets game balance. Well, i mean, the SR4 game i always thought was designed with 400 point characters in mind, as in the NPCs are also designed with 400 point characters in mind. Now, granted, those/we(hey, im both GM and PC in different times) can sometimes come up with some crazy ideas that perhaps the designers didn't think of at the time. Hell, even look at the Character Tutorial in SR4. The character creating the Dwarf Weapons Specialist hard-maxes Agility, soft-maxes Reaction and Intuition, hard-maxes Pistols and takes a smartlink. A tutorial character right there with a DP of 12/14 and this is before specializing. They could have easily went to 14/16, or a PC could do this, if they played that hypothetical sample character. Now, the sample character that created the Street Witch took a more rounded approach. To me, they were showing that you TOO could go either route...smaller amounts of larger DPs or a larger amount of rounded DPs. They each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Sorry if this is going on long, but ive read a few threads about this DP inflation and i guess it's hard for me to understand it since it's never affected us. (If it did, maybe i could see the other side). We sorta play by a DP honor system. If GM says ''lower powered'', we do it. If they say ''go nuts'', well we just might. If they say ''standard game'', we run as we usually do with our teen-DP specialities. Why force-cap something if an honor system can work?


I mean, im not trying you how to run your game, but i sorta go with the school of thought that unless it's REALLY broken, be careful of fixing it.

[DingoJones]

I agree that the rules for DP do not need tampering. Characters who are only good at one thing are pretty easy to deal with IMO.
even a combat beast who has a huge pool for his guns can be countered with any number of things, to spiritis, invisiable opponents, drones. Someone could hack his cyberware...one thing I used was a guy had his smartlink hacked and the person just made him think he was aiming at the guy when he was actually targetting something else. He cuaght on and turned it off and his DP went down.
Thats what I love about this system, ther is always something to through at characters.

[nathanross]

Well, I guess I should be glad that people are reading my idea. I did kind of hope that at least one person would agree with me. C'est la vie!

Seriously though, I did not even consider the 20DP monster when I came up with this. I am merely trying to correctly model how the attributes should have been written. This does not hurt the little guy, as he is already under this limit, it merely lowers the top end growth from augmented attributes. It also makes Genetech much more valuable.

BTW, taking into consideration the 20DP monster, is there anything to do to trim that, even just a bit?

When I have some time later I'll write up the specifics of Perception DP inflation.

[the_dunner]

BTW, taking into consideration the 20DP monster, is there anything to do to trim that, even just a bit?

The easiest solution, IMO, is the house rule that my group uses:

The universal positive DP modifier is 1/2 skill.

So, using shooting as the common example:
If you've got a smartgun link (+2DP), there's no reason to take anything else to increase your weapons accuracy until your skill with a gun is higher than 4. There's also no reason to aim if you've got that smartgun link.

This sets a hardcap of the largest common pool for a human as 21 dice. Here's how I calculate that limit - 9 (enhanced attribute cap) + 8 (Specialized Skill cap) + 4 (Max modifiers).

Yes, you can squeak a few more points out with Exceptional Attribute et al. No, we don't limit Edge in this manner. Yes, this makes a fair bit of gear and/or powers less useful.

We've found that it reduces min/maxing. It also dramatically cuts down on the "fiddly bits." It's not for everyone, but it works well for us. YMMV.

[Glyph]

I'll concur with most people and say that there is no real need to limit SR4's dice pools - with a fixed TN of 5, they are a far different beast than SR3's, where someone with vision magnification and a smartlink could shoot people with a TN of 2.

SR4 is already set at a lower baseline than SR3, with Attributes capped at 200 BP and skills limited to a single skill of 6 or two skills of 5. It's a far cry from SR3, where people could routinely start out with several Attributes with a base of 6, and numerous skills of 6.

As far as high dice pools breaking the game, they only do so if you ignore all of the penalties (for magic and combat) or treat social skills as mind control instead of subtle manipulation.


If I decided to hard cap anything, it would probably be Magic - I know that, realistically-speaking, you won't have players actually reach those theoretical double-digit initiation grades, but it is still jarring that everything else is capped, and magic isn't. I wouldn't change what you could reach at char-gen, though.


Nathanross, I will give you the advice I would give most people considering house rules. Don't make a house rule just because something doesn't "look right". Actually play the game, with the rules, to see if they work or don't, before you house rule things.

[nathanross]

Wow dunner, that is actually really f'ing cool! Nice way of doing it. Just to ask, have you tried limiting the hits by skill level (or skill level+1)?

More random limiters:

• The max Force mages may overcast or summon is not Magic x2, but Magic x1.5 (round up)
• The maximum level of any one power an adept may take is equal to Magic/2 (round up)

May not be necessary, but keeps what would be a Force 10 Stunball at Force 8. The adept version may also not be necessary since the dunner's ruling.

[nathanross]

SR4 is already set at a lower baseline than SR3, with Attributes capped at 200 BP and skills limited to a single skill of 6 or two skills of 5. It's a far cry from SR3, where people could routinely start out with several Attributes with a base of 6, and numerous skills of 6.

As far as high dice pools breaking the game, they only do so if you ignore all of the penalties (for magic and combat) or treat social skills as mind control instead of subtle manipulation.

My motivation for doing this is only about 50% because DPs are too inflated. I feel that SR4 is stuck between the assumptions of the first 3 editions, and aspirations to be something different. The system is not so much a problem, as it is an itch for me. It just doesn't feel right.

I feel the core mechanic is absolutely fabulous, but the numbers they assigned are just wrong. Somewhere in the back of all our minds is the magical number 6. They decided to soft-cap it at 5 to get our conception of the max lower, but the option to have multiple attributes at 6 (the equivalent of 9 in SR3) and be more usefull than ever before is something that cannot be ignored (IMO).

I understand that the basis of the rules is to make a game that is fun, and SR4 has been fun for me for over a year now. Now that the system is fairly well understood by the group, some holes seem to appear in the concept of some things. I am merely trying to rewrite parts of the system so that SR works the way I think it ought to. I do understand that most will not agree, but that is where I stand.

[ElFenrir]

That is a HARSH cap on Adept powers. They are already limited by Magic. Not all adepts take a 6 Magic. Some adept powers are limited as they are(Penetrating Strike is capped at 3 regardless, forex.) That houserule is really...rough.

Again, i like Glyph's advice and I don't go changing things unless i know for sure they are broken. Ive done it before, and it's bitten me in the ass almost every time. Problem is with changing some things, other things end up changing. And then other things. It's a big chain reaction, really. I mean, some houserules tend ot be pretty harmless(Blakkie's Cha x 2 contacts i have yet to hear break a game), but when you start tampering with DPs be really wary here.

And also, something to think about; ive found in my time sometimes the MORE you limit, the MORE minmaxing comes out of it.

Again, if it makes you AND your players happy then all is well and good but if rules do nothing but cause disquiet be aware of changing them.

[Kyoto Kid]

Wow dunner, that is actually really f'ing cool! Nice way of doing it. Just to ask, have you tried limiting the hits by skill level (or skill level+1)?

More random limiters:

• The max Force mages may overcast or summon is not Magic x2, but Magic x1.5 (round up)
• The maximum level of any one power an adept may take is equal to Magic/2 (round up)

May not be necessary, but keeps what would be a Force 10 Stunball at Force 8. The adept version may also not be necessary since the dunner's ruling.

...I agree with the casting cap. I have to side with ElFenrir on Adepts (with the exception of the Pornmancer) in that they are also pretty hamstrung by the fact the 4 =6 rule does not apply in most instances when it comes to power costs. For powers such as critical strike I would limit that by the Adept's unarmed combat skill (similar to how Improved Ability is capped). I also would have no issue with Kinesics costing 1PP per level which is what it cost in 3rd ed. Always caught me kind of odd that this power had a reduction in cost while almost all the others remained the same.

[the_dunner]

Wow dunner, that is actually really f'ing cool! Nice way of doing it. Just to ask, have you tried limiting the hits by skill level (or skill level+1)?

We tried it during the course of playtesting and didn't really care for it. Basically, we found that to be extremely limiting for "Jack of all Trades" character types. IE, the guy with great attributes, but just a smattering of low-ish level skills.

[nathanross]

...I agree with the casting cap. I have to side with ElFenrir on Adepts (with the exception of the Pornmancer) in that they are also pretty hamstrung by the fact the 4 =6 rule does not apply in most instances when it comes to power costs. For powers such as critical strike I would limit that by the Adept's unarmed combat skill (similar to how Improved Ability is capped). I also would have no issue with Kinesics costing 1PP per level which is what it cost in 3rd ed. Always caught me kind of odd that this power had a reduction in cost while almost all the others remained the same.

Okay, maybe the adept power was a bit much (not that I ever even cap my powers above 3, anyways), but 1pp for Kinesics? Common! It's not like Magic, and +1 die is certainly not equal to -1TN/level. Especially when the TN was the opposing char's Int. .5/pp of Kinesics is plenty fair.

We tried it during the course of playtesting and didn't really care for it. Basically, we found that to be extremely limiting for "Jack of all Trades" character types. IE, the guy with great attributes, but just a smattering of low-ish level skills.

Ah, I see, though I'm not sure I agree that a guy with great attributes and low skills is a "Jack of all Trades". I usually consider that a guy with 3-4 in most skills (allowing him to get succeed on Extremely difficult tasks) and average 3-4 in most Attributes. In fact a guy I play with came up with the "Above Average Adept", hereafter referred to as AAA, who had 4 in all attributes (3 in all physical, 4 in all mental, and all physical atts boosted by Improved Physical Attribute adept power) and a ton of skills at 4. Pretty cool dude.

[DingoJones]

I use the optional rule for "grittier play" presented in S4 main rule book.
successes on a test are limited to twice your skill. So far it has been really good. I didn't like how attributes at 9 and skills at 1 meant 10 dice compared to other guy with 5 skill and 3 attribute for 8 DP.
I do let some DP bonuses increase the max successes you can get, such as adept Great Leap for jump tests and positive quality social DP bonuses.

It works quite well.

[Crusher Bob]

1pp for Kinesics?

Yes. It provides +1 to 5 skills. (Con, Negotiation, Leadership, Etiquette, Intimidation); doing the same thing with increased ability would cost 1.25 pp. In addition, it provides the minor bonus of the silent body language trick. If that wasn
t already enough, the bonus it provides is a pool bonus (uncapped) compared to capped increased provided by increased ability. At one PP and limited to one level it's still a pretty good deal. At .5 pp a level and capped only by magic it's crazy good.

One of the quickest ways to flatten out dice pools is to nerf things that provide uncapped bonuses to pools. So stuff like, tailored pheremones, kinesics, various athletics boosters, etc. If you nerf all pool increasers down to +1 pool, then even if they are stacked, they still tend to keep pools lower.

[nathanross]

One of the quickest ways to flatten out dice pools is to nerf things that provide uncapped bonuses to pools. So stuff like, tailored pheremones, kinesics, various athletics boosters, etc. If you nerf all pool increasers down to +1 pool, then even if they are stacked, they still tend to keep pools lower.

This is what the_dunner's house rule limiting stacking DP mods to Skill/2 (round up, right?) does perfectly. If you have Influence Group 4, you can only gain dice from 2 levels of Kinesics, no matter how many you have purchased. Seems fine to me. To get more out of Kinesics you have to increase the skills associated. Wonderful.

[Stahlseele]

but it will make for a heck load more of min/maximing . . i only have skill 4, why should i ever use something else than a smartlink? even if i were using a frigging artillery cannon, a gauss-rifle, a laser-beam, an LBX Sniper rifle . . there will be no other benefits aside from AP/DV from my trusty little pocket pistol . . so i can use the money that i would have put into that to make my whole-some character-image to get some other things that get me the maximum dice pool of 1,5xskill for everything else i want my char to do . .

[the_dunner]

so i can use the money that i would have put into that to make my whole-some character-image to get some other things that get me the maximum dice pool of 1,5xskill for everything else i want my char to do . .

That's really the point of it, for us. We end up with characters that are better diversified. As I said above, though. This is our house rule. It's definitely not for everyone.

[ElFenrir]

True enough. I do like some healthy debate on these things. Myself, i believe that there is not need to force diversifacation, if players want a more tightly-specialized character(or group), they'll make it because thats what they want to play and what will be fun for them. If they want to diversify, they will, for the same reason.

But again, it's cool if groups like to sort of push it. It's not my cup of tea(i sorta don't like forced stuff), but it might be for others.

Hmm...you know, i think i know why im not as into it myself. See, we usually try to do group creations to be balanced. We do have a fairly lean game and yeah, we do push into mildly higher power levels sometimes(though we stay at 400 BP, so it's not excessive). We've played on all types.

I've been on teams(usually our same people give or take a couple), and seen teams made of A. heavily divirsified but not excessive people, B. Specialists around; a smattering of skills in other areas to help but each absolutely had their thing, and C. Mixed.

Honestly, in my experience, team A had the MOST problems. None of us really had enough ''oomph'' in any one area to make a big difference and trouble was ran into. Maybe we were going about it wrong, and it did have some good sides(teamwork rolls went fairly smooth), but there were alot of bumps; more than what we preferred(sure, SR isn't supposed to be a smooth road, but still).

The specialist teams were awesome, there wasn't much we couldn't do if we worked together. The downside was getting seperated. Sure, we weren't useless in other areas but there could be problems. I had more fun here though.

The MIXED team was great; the diverse guys could help out anywhere while the specialists could carry easily. The current game im playing on and off has one of these. Again there were a few drawbacks but IMO, a mixed team is the most fun. I'm one of the super-specialists here, and it's nice to both be relied upon...and having to rely on other people.

I like seeing things like this, myself, but im sure other folks might have had bad experiences with 'specialist' teams and thus might have a bad taste, like i did with ''low DP diverse teams'. Let me add that diverse teams are NOT useless; it could have been our team was WAY too diverse and lacked any sort of focus. Diverse characters can save the day in those mixed team games; but so can the specialists. In a way, the more...diversity between..diverse and specialists is allowed the better, if that didn't come out too confusing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

We tried it during the course of playtesting and didn't really care for it. Basically, we found that to be extremely limiting for "Jack of all Trades" character types. IE, the guy with great attributes, but just a smattering of low-ish level skills.

amen to that

[deek]

We've been running the skill + 1 capping successes since we started playing SR4 and it works very well for us. That way, I could care less if my players have a DP of 60, as I know their skill of 3 is only going to gross them 4 successes. Even at the upper levels, you are talking about a skill of 7 getting 8 successes, so not a huge deal when you take into account opposed tests or thresholds.

That leaves us with little to no rule changes and a level playing field for most skill levels. Now, the higher DP players will be able to do some extraordinary things still, as they can eat a lot of negative DP modifiers...but they should be able to do crazy stuff!!!