Dice Pool Inflation, Cutting it off at the root. Options

[Spike]

I think DPs are too high too, I wanna play! (rolling 20 dice is teh suck... too many dice, man.... too many dice...)

But trying to rejigger every number from the ground up like that is teh suck.

What I'd do is remove attributes from the dice pools: you heard me, that particular change made me wince, puts way too much emphasis on the attributes. Sure, you'll have a few problems with some subsystems ( subdual combat, when I put the squeeeze on him should I still use skill or should I use strength?)

But right there you've just cut your DP's in half. Amazingly enough, I think that even with the current threshold system, that means your high end dudes actually have to struggle to hit those 'world class difficulties.

While the low skill guys actually have to struggle for positive modifiers to actually beat threshold 1 with any reliability.

Its freaking GENIUS man!

Oh, there's a few minor things, what to do with attributes that aren't called on much (Logic? Agility?) outside of skills, but I hated the 'extra attribute' thing too. 6 was plenty, 8 is just ugly. Of course, this does make Edge more potent, best to just cut that away (it sucks anyway...)...

[nathanross]

What I'd do is remove attributes from the dice pools: you heard me, that particular change made me wince, puts way too much emphasis on the attributes. Sure, you'll have a few problems with some subsystems ( subdual combat, when I put the squeeeze on him should I still use skill or should I use strength?)

You know, if I wanted to play without Attribute + Skill DP system, I would just go back to SR3. Since I don't, I think I will just continue to tweak the SR4 rules.

[Spike]

You know, if I wanted to play without Attribute + Skill DP system, I would just go back to SR3. Since I don't, I think I will just continue to tweak the SR4 rules.

You know, if I wanted to make sweeping fundamental changes to the game because I think some aspect of it is overdone, I would just design a whole new game from scratch. Since I don't I will just continue to use the SR4 rules.

[ElFenrir]

Well, in the end, the whole DP thing is really subjective. What's too much in one person's game is just right for another. For example, Im not a big fan of the skill +1 cap; it makes low skills not as good anymore(one of the things im glad they changed from SR3. I feel like i can have some chance at something if i have a bit of knowledge in it.)

Each table just has to find what works for them. As i always say to alot of folks, im the biggest fan of the 'gentleman's rule' way of doing it; the whole table decides on a rough range before the game(give or take a couple before OR after modifiers depending), and sticks with it. No rules have to be changed and since everyone decides at the start then the whole table is happy.

[nathanross]

You know, if I wanted to make sweeping fundamental changes to the game because I think some aspect of it is overdone, I would just design a whole new game from scratch. Since I don't I will just continue to use the SR4 rules.

What sweeping fundamental changes? How is lowering the hard cap by 1 fundamental? Almost all of the characters presented in BBB dont even need changing. I really don't see what the problem is. I merely wish to slightly lower DPs so that a threshold of 4 actually has meaning.

[deek]

@nathanross
Take a look at your original post...you said more than just lower the hardcap by 1.

I think that opposed tests are already balanced, unless you have your players with a lot bigger DPs than their opposition. That end of it really does take care of itself. If you have 20 DP v. 20 DP, then it really is whoever rolls better that wins out.

Same idea with extended tests...you can move that threshold up as far as you want. Additionally, you can alter the timeframe to make the extended test take longer ("when" it gets done can be more important than how bad-ass it gets done).

So really, you are looking at just the unopposed simple tests, right? Why not just impose higher thresholds? Right now you only have four...so it wouldn't be too complex to add one (or a few) more, right? That leaves most everything as-is, just makes it a little harder to do really hard things.

[knasser]

I have a different approach. It may not suit all games but it works for me and it stops short of house rules.

I take a soft approach to discouraging maxed out dice pools by absolutely stuffing my game with strategy, tactics and situational modifiers. Yes - it's great to have six in an attribute, but it's expensive and the difference between that and having 4 is just two dice. That's two dice you could make up in combat by attacking with the Sun behind you, that's two dice you could make up in a social roll by researching the target's home town and slotting an accent chip, that's two dice you could make up on your driving roll by just spending the BP on a vehicle control rig and still have a bundle left over. And at the same time, the players see their characters getting hammered by less skilled opposition who just happen to be co-ordinating their security response effectively with good use of 2070-era comms and expert systems. And at the same time, I thrust all sorts of situations at the team. Primarily this is to force them to work together but it also puts an emphasis on not leaving obvious weaknesses. To round all this out, I make very certain that I apply the appropriate descriptions to the appropriate scores. A PC with a Strength of 4, well they still get people cooing over how strong they are and the person with a Logic of 3 - they still get to say they're a little smarter than most.

None of this constitutes a hard and fast rule, but it's good in that it often relieves players of the need to have a 6 in some skill or attribute. They soon learn that the rest of the world isn't built around these super high attributes and they adjust accordingly. At least in my experience.

[Spike]

What sweeping fundamental changes? How is lowering the hard cap by 1 fundamental? Almost all of the characters presented in BBB dont even need changing. I really don't see what the problem is. I merely wish to slightly lower DPs so that a threshold of 4 actually has meaning.

Lets look at the points, shall we?

In reverse order: lowering dice pools by 3 odd dice will not magically make thresholds of 4 all that much harder to hit. When your 'high end' dicepool is 20+, and to realistically make a threshold of 4 statistically challenging you need to reduce it to 12, this little change is a drop in the bucket. Note that 20 isn't even the high end here, its more of a reasonable 'high pool'. Worse, you'll see more 'high' pools across the spectrum, since without rejiggering the DP totals they will have on average more points to spread around, seeing as they won't have so many 6's or even as many 5's eating their points.


Since you want to keep it simple, humans (with no stat boosts at all) become even less attractive to play. Think about it, what's more damaging a loss of 1/6th your dice or one 10th? or even that 1/7th or 1/8th (more common...). The change doesn't impact all races equally by any means. Worse, since the augmented cap drops by TWO instead of one... Elves with their agility of 6/9 will be much more attractive than their 7/11 (and very hard to reach 11 at that...) ever were before.

But lets move to combat. Since everyone will have less body to resist damage, all your weapons are going to be that much more lethal. Same thing with existing toxins and poisons and diseases. healing times will slow down.

You've already backed off the poor magic bastards, which means that high end spells will continue to appear, and be harder to resist than ever. Good job.

Eh: melee weapons are always 1/2 str, sadly now str has a odd number cap base. Not huge, but still and annoying dangly bit.


We haven't even gotten into your strange comment about perception DP's requiring special attention. I'll let the hacking one pass, as aside from the fact that your little rule has absolutely zero effect on hacking to begin with, takes us into the quagmire that is discussing the SR4 matrix rules.

Why does Perception piss you off so much? Seriously? Do you play Ninja alot and get tired of failing your sneak rolls or something? Seriously, perception should be the least of your worries, as quite often it will be opposed by another skill using the exact same mechanism of determing number of successes. And since last I checked, its possible to get a superhuman agility far easier than it is to get a superhuman intuition... if anything you're doing it backwards: Stealth needs nerfing!


And all of this... all of it... is just the tip of the iceberg of things that will change when you suddenly, and arbitrarily decide to alter the one thing that every character has (that is: attributes scaled from 1-6, with changes due to race). It is at best a piss poor 'solution' to the 'problem' you currently have. Its ineffective and has more drastic changes than just about any other solution.

[ElFenrir]

To round all this out, I make very certain that I apply the appropriate descriptions to the appropriate scores. A PC with a Strength of 4, well they still get people cooing over how strong they are and the person with a Logic of 3 - they still get to say they're a little smarter than most.

None of this constitutes a hard and fast rule, but it's good in that it often relieves players of the need to have a 6 in some skill or attribute. They soon learn that the rest of the world isn't built around these super high attributes and they adjust accordingly. At least in my experience.

You, friend, just made my night. I think youve said what ive wanted to say but i forgot to say it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Alot of players(me included) fall into the SR3 trap; when i first started, i was used to SR3. High numbers were norm(and if you were doing something like face or build and repair, AKA stuff that had no pool dice, a requirement). 4's were the 'ah, average' stat, 5s and 6s were norm attributes, samurai were super fast as well as Mensa members with iron will(combat pool.) And then a dramatic switch to 2's being what the ''man on the street has'', and 3's being a little above average; you were probably noticed in your class if you had a 3. But trying to change that mindset over can be difficult. I remember failing miserably trying to do direct translations of my SR3 characters.

But when i started thinking of it like Knasser mentioned, it got so much easier. Rarely do I max a stat or even a skill. Most of my stats are in the 3-4 range-sometimes even 2-4, and i've popped natural 5s before, but it's not often. Skillwise i take some 5s now and again but the majority has been in the 2-4 range. Sure, there are modifiers, and yeah ive specialized, but ive learned that the numbers are just different now. Ive done the max thing a couple of times-maxed magic on a character once and recently wanted a character with a 7 in a skill, just to see how it would work out and I was interested in playing That Guy To Beat. I havn't brought him in game yet but I have a feeling the people are going to react a bit differently than they did with my old sam with a 5(7) in something. Sure, in SR3 a 5(7) person was considered hot, but eh, there are better, you know?

In fact, i'll expand on this a bit. Explain to your players what the numbers mean, as mentioned. Say that 2 Logic doesn't mean he's a dumbass(in SR3, a 2 Intelligence meant yeah, you were a bit slow.) Not now, though. You're just as smart as the guy down the street. You probably graduated school, even, with typical grades. That 2 Reaction doesn't mean you're a total slowpoke, it means that you catch the ball about as much again, as the guy down the street.

And yeah, tell em that 4 whatever means it's well known. If they have a 5 in a stat it should be damned noticable nowadays. a 5 Strength guy probably gets called first when someone needs help moving and probably get challenged often to arm-wrestling contests by drunken patrons. the 5 Logic guy probably could make a career winning on a trivia show and by damned he could be a top scientist.

As for skills, 0 is the typical untrained masses. But you can still do it. If someone has a 5, again, they'll be widely noticed. Again, im almost afraid of what is going to happen to the guy where i took a 7.

Now, players will still want to be successful in their chosen fields. If that firearms guy puts a 5 in Agility, gets a couple levels of Muscle Toner and a 5(+2) Pistols, well, he's just trying to be damned good at what he does. Alot of times these guys aren't trying to break a game open. 5s are high; but they are also reasonable, IMO. They are also limited to 2 of them so they have to choose carefully. Sure the Face probably wants to ensure they do their job to the best of their ability. If a Face puts a 5 to Charisma and a 5 Etiquette, to me, that's reasonable. Oh, they are going to be a noticed face for sure; a 5 charisma is friggin high, but i can't blame a player for wanting to do it.

[Spike]

A part of that is how you scale your opposition too. Sure, the players are tossing aside 24 dice to shoot some poor bastard, and feeling pretty bad ass about it... for a while anyway.

Until they start realizing that the sec guards are happy to throw 8 or 9 dice at them, and count on numbers.

Then 'the math' kicks in. They start thinking of all they ways they skimped to hit that 24 dice of shooting, all the other things they could have done and been content with, say 20 dice... and how those four 'uber' dice turned into 6 or 7 'other dice' somewhere down the line.

Then maybe they'll trim a little more, bring 16-18 dice. Still bad ass shooters, but a bit more rounded.

Of course, the first time you take a world class, specialized until it hurts, opponent against them you just lost all that natural de-escalation.


And its not as simple or easy as I just suggested, but its a forum, not a paid seminar....

[ElFenrir]

I'm a fan of numbers and tactics. 6-8 guards throwing 8 dice are enough trouble vs. a few shadowrunners chucking large amounts of dice. And again, tactics. Make the opposition hide, make em sneak around, and take cover. Suddenly those 24 dice drop with negative modifers of firing into almost full cover.

And they realize ''hey, maybe taking a 4(+2) Automatics and 5 Agility was a better idea than the 6 Agility, 6(+2) Automatics and i would have had points for running and a melee skill so i could have closed on his ass and clocked him one''.

Don't *punish* them per se. Don't have all the enemies suddenly hide behind a Giant Wall Out of Nowhere with only holes they can shoot out of. But now and again toss em up against situations to make them think and understand.

[nathanross]

First, in response to deek: all of my original proposals were a result of a shift from 6 to 5 as hard cap and 5 to 4 as softcap. Also a slightly reduced hardcap cost (20 instead of 25). When 5 is the hard cap, 7 becomes the augmented cap by SR4 standards (5*1.5 = 7.5, round down = 7).

Now, maybe this is just me being narrowminded, but I like Magic and resonance to be equal. This is the only reason I proposed it as Magic all the way to 5.

Spike, I don't think I can really respond to all of your criticism, but I will try.

First, you are right that this changes the metatype balance. I'm not sure is some values need to be raised/lowered or what. If you have something to solve this, please present it.

Second, you say that high force spells are going to still be an issue, but I don't think so. First, Drain DP is the main reason behind high force spell casting, and I have just taken 2DP from drain min-maxers. Also, I think it was also in this thread that I proposed a limit of Magic * 1.5 (round up) on overcasting. This I feel is the number 1 solution to Force 10 spirits and spells.

Third, I don't understand why you think this is so drastic. As you said, it is only -3DP tops. How does -1DP from Body (assuming soft-capped Body) suddenly make you vulnerable, when the shooter also has -1 Agility.

Fourth, since when did I say that perception "pissed me off"? It does not in any way. It is most important thing for a shadowrunner after IPs. I merely think that there is too many +DP for perception. This is no longer an issue since the dunner's proposed rule and thus I have no issue anymore with perception. Happy?

Fifth, as for the matrix, I have given that up until I see what Unwired brings. I want to know what corporate Nodes/Hosts are like stat wise before I comment on the issue of scaling.

Knasser and ElFenrir, I understand the importance of modifiers, and taking them into account is one of the most important aspects of the game. However! Modifiers become less and less useful at modifying DPs as the DP scales upwards. Unless most DPs are in the same approximate range, -DPs really hurt low dice pools and have hardly any effect on large dice pools. I am not saying that they aren't crucial, just that it isn't enough, at least for me.

[Kyoto Kid]

but 1pp for Kinesics? Common! It's not like Magic, and +1 die is certainly not equal to -1TN/level. Especially when the TN was the opposing char's Int. .5/pp of Kinesics is plenty fair.

Yes. It provides +1 to 5 skills. (Con, Negotiation, Leadership, Etiquette, Intimidation); doing the same thing with increased ability would cost 1.25 pp. In addition, it provides the minor bonus of the silent body language trick. If that wasn't already enough, the bonus it provides is a pool bonus (uncapped) compared to capped increased provided by increased ability. At one PP and limited to one level it's still a pretty good deal. At .5 pp a level and capped only by magic it's crazy good.

...Crusher Bob: Thank you for replying in my absence You pretty much covered my points exactly (viral infections are a bitch).

[Fortune]

Technically, it would be six skills, as Kinesics actually benefits Instruction as well, if I'm not mistaken.

[Spike]

Nathanross: My solution is simple: don't alter the attributes, and then you don't have to worry about how to scale down the various metaraces to keep them all in balance.

You yourself listed Perception out for special attention at the bottom of your OP. It and hacking were the two areas that you felt needed special attention. You tell me why.

As for magic: since you backed off on reducing it's cap, that means that many mages are casting at 6 without worry of overcasting, thus the marginal reduction in drain ability only partially offsets that fact that their spells are just that much harder to resist.

The -1 agil from the shooter is offset by the -1 reduction in defensive DP, so it has a zero net balance to damage, the only number that we're looking at is the fixed DV of the weapon, as it hasn't changed. Further compounding the damage issue: Since armor is capped (effectively) at double body (or for some houserules str+bod), that means less armor overall as well. Guns have no such attribute related cap to their fixed ability to dish out the pain.

Do you see where this is going? Cascades of changes, all from altering, even minorly, this single facet of the game. THIS facet in particular because it is the only thing that every other aspect of the game has in common. Therefore it happens to be a fundamental alteration, which was what you tasked me with proving. I think I've done that.

Sure its a 'minor change', but it implies a host of changes, some you'll like some you won't. If you want to keep the general balance of the game the same then you'll have to change all those other things.

And again: Since the goal is reducing dice pools, and this provides trivial changes (1 or 2 in most cases...) its a hell of a lot of work for a pathetic gain. Its the back end of the mule.

[Kyoto Kid]

...hacking is kind of moot in that if you go by RAW attribute does not come into play. In our group we elected to use the Logic + Skill houserule for Matrix ops.

For perception, there are an number of conditional modifiers that adjust the DP downwards including: distance, available light, ambient noise, materials, infiltration successes, weather, smoke, concealment (not the Spirit kind), Camo, ruthenium polymers, size of target, etc. Personally, I have not seen these brought into play as much as they should be.

Also keep in mind that the oppos have all the sensory technology and implants at their disposal, and most of it takes little or no essence & doesn't cost all that much.

...of course for me the jury is still out on perception being a skill rather than an attribute test as it was in previous editions.

[nathanross]

As for magic: since you backed off on reducing it's cap, that means that many mages are casting at 6 without worry of overcasting, thus the marginal reduction in drain ability only partially offsets that fact that their spells are just that much harder to resist.

The -1 agil from the shooter is offset by the -1 reduction in defensive DP, so it has a zero net balance to damage, the only number that we're looking at is the fixed DV of the weapon, as it hasn't changed. Further compounding the damage issue: Since armor is capped (effectively) at double body (or for some houserules str+bod), that means less armor overall as well. Guns have no such attribute related cap to their fixed ability to dish out the pain.

what? Mages casting at 6? how the hell did you figure that? When I say reduce the attribute hardcap, I mean ALL the caps. That includes Essence/Magic/Edge. ALL of them. As I already mentioned, this could bone sammys, but that bridge will be crossed when I get to it.

I can see more where you are coming from about the constant weapon DV, but just because you can only take Body * 2 before becoming encumbered, doesn't mean you can't take more. In fact just there the agility DP has been reduced further. If you want to shoot like a god you will have to give up some security. Seems fine to me. Or get tailored armor that gives Body *3 before encumburance.

For perception, there are an number of conditional modifiers that adjust the DP downwards including: distance, available light, ambient noise, materials, infiltration successes, weather, smoke, concealment (not the Spirit kind), Camo, ruthenium polymers, size of target, etc. Personally, I have not seen these brought into play as much as they should be.

Also keep in mind that the oppos have all the sensory technology and implants at their disposal, and most of it takes little or no essence & doesn't cost all that much.

...of course for me the jury is still out on perception being a skill rather than an attribute test as it was in previous editions.

You are right KK, there are a ton of modifiers on Perception that we forget. But as you said, there is sensory tech that don't even need to implant and costs pennies. You can elimintate DP mods and get +3 dice for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) glasses. Why would you not!

[Kyoto Kid]

...but as I mentioned, that means the Oppos can easily have them too which levels the field a bit.

[nathanross]

KK, it is not that everyone can have them that is the issue. At those prices with that much of a bonus, why would the not have them? DP inflation is not just an issue on the PCs side.

As for Perception, just a question, but has anyone made it an Intelligence test again (Intuition + Logic)? I've been wondering if this is better or worse than Perception as a skill (a Physical one at that!).

[ArkonC]

MY current character rolls 17 dice (6 Int +6 Per +2 Spec +3 contacts with enhancement) for visual perception (looking for clues) and our GM loves it, finally someone in the party has a good chance of finding even threshold 5 clues so he can actually use them...
I don't see how you could get that DP much higher so I don't think it should be kept down...
All the gun lovers in the party roll more dice to shoot than that...

[Fortune]

I don't see how you could get that DP much higher ...

Observe In Detail +3
Betel Gum +1
Directional Orientation (from Spacial Recognizer) +2
Microscopic Vision +2
Nanites +3
Exceptional Intuition +1
Gene Therapy +1
Increase Intuition spell +3
Cognition Adept Power usage +3

... that's off the top of my head ... there's probably more. Not all can be used together in every situation, but it isn't too hard to pump the Perception Pool.

[ArkonC]

Observe In Detail +3
Betel Gum +1
Directional Orientation (from Spacial Recognizer) +2
Microscopic Vision +2
Nanites +3
Exceptional Intuition +1
Gene Therapy +1
Increase Intuition spell +3
Cognition Adept Power usage +3

... that's off the top of my head ... there's probably more. Not all can be used together in every situation, but it isn't too hard to pump the Perception Pool.

Show off... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

Reception Enhancer (Rating 3)

+3 to all perception checks, and is usable with sensors and matrix. The fluff of it describes it more as allowing you to process the multiple inputs better allowing you to interpret it better. I don't have my book with me to provide the actual page, but its damn nice I have a Perception guru myself in the works


Intuition 4 + Perception 5 + Vision/Hearing/Phermone Enhance (3) + Reception Enhance (3) = 15 perception.. ok you beat me so far (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Phermone Enhance being the sensory, not the perfume itself

[Fortune]

And there's always the Attention Coprocessor, which is good for +3. How the hell did I forget that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[nathanross]

Now, of course these things are not always in the same place at the same time, but to summarize them: quoting Fortune for some)

Intuition: 5-12 (12 is done through exceptional attribute + genetech to raise aug max to 12, and magic or adept power to fill the rest.)

Perception: 6-7

Specialization: +2

Enhanced Perception adept power: +Magic (4 in this case to account for ware)

Ware:
Reception Enhancers +3
Attention Coprocessor +3
Vision Enhancement +3
Nanites +3
Microscoptic Vision +2
Directional Orientation (from Spacial Recognizer) +2

Other:
Observe in Detail +3
Betel Gum +1

Now this totals to 37 on the low side to 45 on the high side. Now I understand that this character is purely stat masturbation, but the idea that you could get 20 dice completely outside of Attribute + Skill is DP inflation if ever I have heard of it. I guess the main reason I feel this is a problem is because the ware should be redundant. They all basically do the same thing, why should they get the same bonus to do it?

I forgot to note that with the dunner's totally pimpin rule, this is down to 16 on the low end to 23 on the high end. About -20DP eh? This does not take into consideration whether the Enhanced Perception adept power is also limited by this, a point I am not too sure of myself (I do kind of like the idea of adepts being infinite in some areas, though I do not support the Pornomancer).