Dice Pool Inflation, Cutting it off at the root. Options

[Kyoto Kid]

As for Perception, just a question, but has anyone made it an Intelligence test again (Intuition + Logic)? I've been wondering if this is better or worse than Perception as a skill (a Physical one at that!).

...I considered that, then I look at characters such as my Matrix Specialist Violet who would have a base DP of 12 (Logic 7 Intiution 5). Add to that all the goodies she has implanted and she would have a visual/hearing perception DP of 19. (Attention co-processor 3, Cyberyes with Vision Enhancement 3, Cyberears with Hearing Enhancement 3, PuSHeD Enhanced Protein Treatment).

[nathanross]

...I considered that, then I look at characters such as my Matrix Specialist Violet who would have a base DP of 12 (Logic 7 Intiution 5). Add to that all the goodies she has implanted and she would have a visual/hearing perception DP of 19. (Attention co-processor 3, Cyberyes with Vision Enhancement 3, Cyberears with Hearing Enhancement 3, PuSHeD Enhanced Protein Treatment).

I mean, without the non-implanted SR4 perception mods (BTW, PuSHeD gives +1 to Logic linked skill tests, so no dice).

If there was no Vision/Audio enhance and no PuSHeD, then you only have a DP15, and that is fair as she would have 8 Intelligence in SR3 (+2 from co-processor?) which translates to 15 in SR4 terms. Not a far reach. This may cause issues with Assensing, but I am not sure what, or how to deal with them (Aura Reading skill? Self-teamwork?)

EDIT - Violet's DP is nothing to my SR3 character Freyr (Intelligence 11 with Perceptive quality = ~7 successes). Since he was an adept, the sky was the limit as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nathanross]

While I haven't had the time with school starting up again to discern between all the Perception mods, I think now is a good time to bring out Case Study #2: The Pornomancer!

Charisma: 5-15 (15 is elf with genetech, exceptional attribute, and Increase Charisma spell)

Negotiation/Con: 4-10 (Increased Ability)

Specialization: +2

DP Mods:

Kinesics +5
Friendly Face First Impression +2
Tailored Pheremones +3
(Emo toy/Emo-softs +6?)

Now perhaps KK can let me know how close this is to Lady Grand, but seriously close. This is 21 on the low end to 37 on the high end (this does not even include emo toys from hell, which would bring range to 27-43, only 2 away from max perception!).

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Enhanced Pheromone Receptors are +2 social, First Impression is +2 social.

[Glyph]

Tailored pheromones are from the main book, and go up to +3. Enhanced pheromone receptors are from Augmentation, and are a different item altogether.

As far as the Increase Charisma spell, keep in mind that the Force of the spell must equal the augmented Attribute. Not many people sling Force: 15 spells.


I see what you want to do, nathanross, even if I don't agree with the need for it, but I'm not sure it's really the best way to go about it. The problem with reducing Attributes and skills is that they are already too narrow of a range for what they are supposed to represent. Dice pool modifiers are the real culprit, anyways, but making them, and cyber-enhanced Attributes, less meaningful, messes up the transhumanism that is one of the game's main themes.

So how would I go about it? Hmmm. Maybe keep Attributes as they are, but say that they add half of their rating, rounded up, to tests. For dice pools, maybe go through the modifiers and say that ones which do similar things don't stack (kinesics and emotitoys, for example), just as a gunfighter can't get the +1 from a laser sight simultaneously with the +2 for a smartlink.

[nathanross]

As far as the Increase Charisma spell, keep in mind that the Force of the spell must equal the augmented Attribute. Not many people sling Force: 15 spells.

You're right it is not easy to get it to Force 15. My interpretation of the spell was that it had to be cast at the Force of the rating of the Attribute it was augmenting. So in the case of a soft-capped elf, must be cast at at least Force 7. However, must be cast at Force 8 (and score 8 hits, gl (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) to get Charisma to 15.

Dice pool modifiers are the real culprit, anyways, but making them, and cyber-enhanced Attributes, less meaningful, messes up the transhumanism that is one of the game's main themes.

Oh, I by no means want to mess up the high end created by full Cyber bodies, but I am against the equality between cyber and bio. I am more of the school that there is no limit to cyber attribute maximum. But that is for another day.

So how would I go about it? Hmmm. Maybe keep Attributes as they are, but say that they add half of their rating, rounded up, to tests. For dice pools, maybe go through the modifiers and say that ones which do similar things don't stack (kinesics and emotitoys, for example), just as a gunfighter can't get the +1 from a laser sight simultaneously with the +2 for a smartlink.

As for emo-toys, I see no reason why they should add DP to Social tests. I think their fluff lends itself more towards just Judge Intentions, and unless we are going to allow Mages/Assenser's a DP based on their assensing skill, why should we allow software to do it?

As for my OP, I kind of wanted to test the waters. I have been thinking about writing up a three tiered BP build system (low/mid/high) with Frank's BP advancement and cost for skills and varying the hard cap to 1 between levels. 4 for low, 5 for mid, 6 for high. I have dubbed it Shadowrun v3.9