Krav Maga (and varients) help archery, Quick build I did to show it. Options

[Tarantula]

One of the benefits of the krav maga (or varient) martial art styles is making ready weapon a free action instead of a simple action. This makes bow use very easy to get a double alpha strike in on your first attack.

You are sneaking in a facility and spot guards, you ready your bow, then duck out to shoot at them, you shoot (simple action) ready the bow (free action) and shoot again (simple action). For a strength 6 character, this would be two 8P attacks. For a troll bow monstrosity, it could be 2 18P attacks.

Anyway, heres another adept build I did, to try to optimize this. Lemme know of critiques or suggestions.

[ Spoiler ]

Combat Infiltrator

Dwarf 25

Qualities: -10
Adept 5
Martial Arts(ROSS) 10
Take Aim Free Action, Ready Weapon Free Action

Sensitive System -15
Sensitive Neural Structure -5
Scorched -5

Maneuvers: 8
Set Up 2
Finishing Move 2
Watchful Guard 2
Herding 2

Attributes: 200
Bod:2 5 30
Agi:1 4 30
Rea:1 4(6) 30
Str:3 7 40
Cha:1 3 20
Int:1 3 20
Log:1 3 20
Wil:2 3 10

Special Attributes: 60
Edge:1 3 20
Magic:1 5 40
Int:2 8(10) 3IP

Skills: 102
Archery (Bows) 5 22
Stealth Group 4 40
Etiquette 3 12
Unarmed Combat 3 12
Perception 2 (Visual) 10
Armorer 1(Weapon Accessories) 6

Powers: 5P
Improved Reflexes 2 (3P)
Traceless Walk(1P)
Improved Ability Infiltration 2 (.5P)
Killing Hands (.5P)

Contacts: 6
Fixer (3/3)

Gear: 9 45,000 Spent: 40,845
Collapsible Bow 7 875
Mods:
Chameleon Coating[2] 1,000
Gecko Grip[1] 100
SmartGun[1] 875
Skinlink 50
100 Arrows 500

Chameleon Suit (6/4) 8,000
Thermal Damping 6 3,000
FFBA Full-Suit (6/2) 1,600
Nonconductive 6 1,200
Forearm Guards (0/1) 200
Helmet (0/2) 100
Shin Guards (0/1) 150
Vitals Protector (1/1) 200

Metalink 100
Vector Xim 200
Skinlink 50


Fake Sin 4 4,000

Contacts 50
Smartlink 500
Flare Comp 50
Skinlink 50

Autopicker 6 1,200
Chisel 20
Maglock Passkey 4 8,000
WireClippers 25
Gecko Gloves 250

Armorer Tools 5000

[Malicant]

Funny, I had the same discussion this very week with one of my players. The conclusion was that reloading a bow still is a simple action. And you can't shoot the bow without reloading it, no matter how ready it is. Ignore that. I'm kind of confused right now.

[Fortune]

What do you consider to be the function of Ready Weapon for bows then, if reloading is not involved in the process?

Well! That makes my question redundant, doesn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Malicant]

Silence! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Arethusa]

Wouldn't it be easier to just say that Krav doesn't affect bows because that would be dumb?

[Malicant]

Not really. It's not even dump or unrealistic. I forgot the exact numbers, but I once read about english longbow archers in the middle ages, who were able to shoot an insane amount of arrows per minute. And by insane I mean it put a 20th level D&D archer rate of fire to shame.

The problem here is rather the possibility of Troll Archer Madness, but that must be solved diffrently.

[Ancient History]

We had a lot to consider in building modern and Sixth World martial arts. When you look at a lot of the real-world firearm training of today (including Krav Maga), the bulk of it isn't trick-shooting or Equilibrium-style gun katas, but drawing, arming, and aiming your weapon as quickly, efficiently, and safely as possible...that and the usual tricks like firing practice, speed drills, how to far when prone, etc. We didn't have room for the sniper martial art, more's the pity.

[hobgoblin]

Not really. It's not even dump or unrealistic. I forgot the exact numbers, but I once read about english longbow archers in the middle ages, who were able to shoot an insane amount of arrows per minute. And by insane I mean it put a 20th level D&D archer rate of fire to shame.

The problem here is rather the possibility of Troll Archer Madness, but that must be solved diffrently.

true that, by having the arrows set up beforehand, in the ground, and basically firing them as a kind of artillery, arcing them over the battlefield, hoping to pick someone off sooner or later.

still, the thought of a krav maga trained troll with a bow being able to take down two tbirds in a single action pass (and more in the next if he isnt thored on the spot) is a bit between horrifying and impressive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Malicant]

But again, it's not the archery, it's the Troll/Bow combo that is the root of evil here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hobgoblin]

true, and the same could be done with a semi auto anti-tank weapon i guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Actually, Krav Maga really kicks ass for small throwing weapons:

Ready Weapon makes Agility/2 available...

[Screamin Demon]

I don't find the build particularly broken. At my own table I would certainly rule that a bonus provided by a fighting style of a military training system that didn't have anything to do with bows... Doesn't apply to bows!
I would however, be willing to let you purchased the style, then spend more time (And Karma) adapting it and altering it for use with bows. Just because a style doesn't exist doesn't mean you cant develop it yourself. Just takes effort. Look at Bruce Lee (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Reloading/readying as a free action isn't that hot. You only get 1 free action a pass, man! And I usually use that to move around. So with his power you can do exactly what the adept quickdraw ability does except you can only do it once per turn when you stand very still.
Unless my grasp of the rules is wrong?

[Sombranox]

SR4, pg 135 under Free Actions
"A character may take a Free Action during his own Action
Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character
may not take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the
Initiative Pass."

SR4, pg 136
Run
Running uses a Free Action and inflicts Running movement
modifiers. Running is considered to be any movement
over the character’s Walking Rate (see Movement, p. 138).


By those, you're right that you can't run around while taking your free action that pass to ready weapon, but you can move at the Walking rate and then could run during one of the middle phases. Could also ready weapon on the phase before your next phase and always double shoot the arrows strictly speaking.

That all said, I'm kind of agreeing with others who've said that it's a bit iffy to take a big bonus to archery for a martial arts style that has nothing to do with archery. But then again, would be interesting to make a Combat Archery martial art with ready weapon (archery) as a free action, take aim (archery) as a free action, maybe +1 called shot using archery, and +1 DV archery or some such.

If the troll archer is going to take down a plane with his bow, he might as well do it with style.

[Screamin Demon]

There is also the Quickdraw Maneuver in the same book. That would take care of it better too. Who ever aims anyway?

[Jaid]

But then again, would be interesting to make a Combat Archery martial art with ready weapon (archery) as a free action, take aim (archery) as a free action, maybe +1 called shot using archery, <snip>

for that second one, you just take 1 level of wildcat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hobgoblin]

ok, now im getting d&d vibes....

[Jaid]

ok, now im getting d&d vibes....

meh. it's not like the character necessarily thinks of themselves as having 1 level of krav maga, 1 level of sioux wildcat, etc. in fact, if making an archer, it's entirely possible the character just considers themselves to know a specialised bow martial art.

[Fortune]

in fact, if making an archer, it's entirely possible the character just considers themselves to know a specialised bow martial art.

Sorta like a prestige class. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

Sorta like a prestige class. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

meh. flavor is mutable. if you can make the mechanics work for you, (and provided the mechanics are not supposed to be attached to the flavor, which happens more often than it should imo) just modify the flavor to be appropriate.

[Larme]

Sorry to be blunt, but using Krav Maga to cheese out bow shooting is RETARDED. Ready Weapon being a free action is great for guns, since you only need to ready them once. But you only get one free action and two simples per Action Phase. No matter how you slice it, you will get off one arrow per Action Phase using Krav Maga. You can do what the OP suggests, and Ready Weapon before combat, or on a previous Action Phase, but you're still firing one arrow per Action Phase. Just instead of firing 1 in the 1st and 1 in the 2nd, you're firing 2 in the 2nd and 0 in the 1st. It still eats up most of two Action Phases.

Here's a tip people: Quick Draw allows you to ready and attack with a weapon as part of one Simple Action. If you use the Iajutsu maneuver, or the Quick Draw Adept power, you can fire a bow like it was a semi automatic weapon. I don't think we need to have a conversation about whether Krav Maga should be allowed to boost archery. It really doesn't. Sure, it frees up a simple action since you no longer need to spend a simple readying the bow. But that's a pretty flaccid bonus. If you want to be all Legolas style, just use Iajutsu.

[Sombranox]

Sorry to be blunt, but using Krav Maga to cheese out bow shooting is RETARDED. Ready Weapon being a free action is great for guns, since you only need to ready them once. But you only get one free action and two simples per Action Phase. No matter how you slice it, you will get off one arrow per Action Phase using Krav Maga. You can do what the OP suggests, and Ready Weapon before combat, or on a previous Action Phase, but you're still firing one arrow per Action Phase. Just instead of firing 1 in the 1st and 1 in the 2nd, you're firing 2 in the 2nd and 0 in the 1st. It still eats up most of two Action Phases.

Here's a tip people: Quick Draw allows you to ready and attack with a weapon as part of one Simple Action. If you use the Iajutsu maneuver, or the Quick Draw Adept power, you can fire a bow like it was a semi automatic weapon. I don't think we need to have a conversation about whether Krav Maga should be allowed to boost archery. It really doesn't. Sure, it frees up a simple action since you no longer need to spend a simple readying the bow. But that's a pretty flaccid bonus. If you want to be all Legolas style, just use Iajutsu.

Strictly speaking, quick draw can only be done for pistols if one were to take RAW at face value. I've always allowed my TT group to do it for machine pistols as well using the automatics skill, but I don't think you can quick draw a rifle or an arrow. I may be wrong though. I'm not a rule god.

As to Iaijutsu, I believe it says that it allows quickdrawing any weapon which has a reach of 1 or less. Since bows and guns don't have a reach attribute, I wouldn't allow that maneuver to cover quickdrawing for either. Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I've read them.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Everything has a 'Reach attribute', even a trout.

[Tarantula]

Another issue with quickdraw, once you draw a weapon, Its drawn. Iaijutsu and quickdraw power don't grant ready weapon actions. They make it so you can draw and shoot with one action. Unless you're gonna use your free action to put the weapon away again (to quickdraw it again) then you can't do it again.

Also, the archer would be shooting one arrow, then two arrows, on alternating passes.

Before combat, ready the bow.
Turn 1: simple fire bow, free ready weapon, simple fire bow
Turn 2: free ready bow, simple fire bow, simple as free ready bow
Turn 3: simple fire bow, free ready bow, simple fire bow

Repeat as much as needed.

[Larme]

As to Iaijutsu, I believe it says that it allows quickdrawing any weapon which has a reach of 1 or less. Since bows and guns don't have a reach attribute, I wouldn't allow that maneuver to cover quickdrawing for either. Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I've read them.

This argument doesn't have legs. Iajutsu specifically says it works for any "melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm of Reach 1 or less." No missile weapon actually have a reach stat listed. Nor do any firearms. Are you trying to argue that Iajutsu, though it says it specifically works on firearms and missile weapons, actually doesn't work for those? It contradicts itself implicitly, so we should ignore its explicit language? I call bullshit on that one.

Iajutsu, by its unambiguous language, says you may draw and use a missile weapon. All you have to do for that to make sense for a bow is to look at the arrow as the missile weapon. You draw the arrow, and you use the arrow by shooting it from the bow. And you can't tell me that this doesn't make sense; see Legolas. I know he's a fantasy character, but what he does isn't totally beyond the pale. A skilled person should be able to draw and fire a bow pretty rapidly.

Everything has a 'Reach attribute', even a trout.

Heh... what made you decide to go with trout? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Also, the archer would be shooting one arrow, then two arrows, on alternating passes.

Before combat, ready the bow.
Turn 1: simple fire bow, free ready weapon, simple fire bow
Turn 2: free ready bow, simple fire bow, simple as free ready bow
Turn 3: simple fire bow, free ready bow, simple fire bow

Repeat as much as needed.

Ok, you're right about that. It brings back the D&D 2nd ed 3/2 attack pattern that you could get as a level 1 fighter with weapon specialization (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Still, iajutsu is pretty clear. It says that you can draw and use any missile weapon. If that doesn't mean drawing an arrow and firing a bow, why would they have put in missile weapon? The only advantage from Krav Maga is that you don't make a test to ready weapon, you always succeed. Iajutsu would require a Reaction + Archery test, which you might conceivably fail.

[ElFenrir]

What im wondering is where the 18 damage comes from. A troll with max Strength has a base 9 DV(and this is as max as he can go, with an 18 Strength...he can get it at 17).

A bow does...Str Min +2. That's 11. Now, if they brought back the Ranger-X Bow, that's 13 DV.

There's still 5 more DV to account for. Power Throw i think, like it's title says, only works with thrown weapons...and that's getting capped to 3 even if it didn't.

If you take an assload enough in a martial art, can you add to the Archery DV? Usually those DVs are also capped around 2, if i recall.

I guess im missing part of the combo here...Im coming up with 18 only if the Ranger-X Bow exists, the martial art adds to Archery and Power Throw adds to the DV, which again, i really don't think it does. Which means even with the ranger X bow im getting 15 DV(still impressive, don't get me wrong), without it, 13 DV.

I mean, it's a damaging as hell arrow shot to be sure. But wow that's costly; the points it costs to be a Troll, to max out Strength, to get all the ware AND buy magic AND be an adept, this would be a one-trick pony to END all one-trick ponies. At least the elf pistoleer adept has a few other things, typically.