Magic buffs and you, Magician pocket adept? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Screamin Demon]

My players trounced the Kreiger-Rak ghouls. They combated the ceiling climbing Rak-Ghouls with flying drones sporting SMG mounts. Just slaughtered the ceiling ghouls, and many of the flanking ones, too.

So I sent in the ambush of astrally projecting, but physically manifested ghouls in on one side, and a group of charging murderously physically real ghouls from the other, they just didn't have the initiative passes to keep up.

All my players were pulling 4 actions thanks to the drug-addict black mage sustaning 5 increased initiative spells at once (which only totaled to -5 due to his drug). Remember my plans to grapple and rend PC's? The ghouls ran up and did the grapple like I planned, so far so good. But then the other 3 initiave passes where they were mostly helpless to the constant bombardment of arrows, spells, and LMG/SMG gun fire.

In desperation I released my brain-child. A Toxic Shaman Troll Ghoul. Who was posessed by 2 bound force 12 Toxic Beast spirits. One was 'Mutating' to add 12 to the troll's strength. The other adding 12 to his body. I also decided that if the players were gonna have improved initiative sustained all the time, there was no reason why the Nemesis Troll Ghoul couldn't too.

His Body came out to 26. Yessir, thats 21 health boxes. But between the hail of 14P arrows from our good archer, and force 12 Manna bolts from our Crack-Mage (THAT ARE RESISTED WITH WILL NOT BODY!!1!1!) the monstrosity I was planning on eating half the party with just flipped over one of their vans (With 4 players in it, I resolved damage like a crash at the speed of Nemmy's Strength! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif) ), smashed an irritating roto-drone, then died before his 3rd initiative pass.

Players were just so buffed up with Improved initiative and stat increases (Many sustained with foci) that after a month of play ate through one a pretty lethal scenario without so much as a single character death. Fuck!

So how do you people deal with mages specializing in buffing powers to augment everyone and their sisters with 4 (total) initiative passes, and augmenting their casting attribute to their racial maximum?

[Malicant]

I'm just going to point out the obvious flaw: the ghouls should have gang banged the mage first.
If you're players are so bad ass, you need to apply bad ass tactics to them and make them suffer.

[edit]one addition still creeps in my mind: let the mage make a lot addiction tests if he's taking drugs like there is no tomorow

[Siege]

Given that your players' tactical doctrine seems to rely heavily on a buffing mage, adjust fire accordingly.

There are a number of options to inconvenience, incapacitate or otherwise eliminate a mage - they need not be fatal, but a focus abusing, drug addicted mage has a pretty fair number of weaknesses to exploit.

-Siege

[Screamin Demon]

Thing is is that he only takes drugs on runs. Outside official run encounters he doesn't touch the stuff.
I thought focus assault would be of some help, but was unsure of how exactly to pull it of in an adventurous manner.
I'm slightly insulted to at the suggestion that the ghouls attack the Mage first. They are dual-natured monsters, the mage was what they were going after. Hash out an Elvin mage with an adjusted charisma of 11, casting pool of 20 (15 with his minuses) or so with a likewise impressive drain pool (and negative modifiers don't aply to drain tests) launching 4 power 12 mana balls/turn.

With the ghouls all taking but single actions they could run (I gave them a more then generous speed of 15 meters). Those that were in range leaped on the runners and sucessfully grappled them. Next action its an auto 8p damage from each ghoul in range to the poor runner as he gets rended and torn apart. The second action never came. As fast as I poured ghouls in they got slaughtered.

Why ever play an adept when any mage that took the posession option could outshine them easily?
Why play a decker when as a mage (Improved initiative and 'Analyze device' spell) you can AR hack faster and use your computer more proficiently then any decker ever did. Same for rigging.

Am I just realizing something everyone knows already? Or should I just make my enemies attack the mage firstier next time?

[Cthulhudreams]

You should still make addiction tests. If I was only doing speed in combat zones, I could still want to take it afterwards, that is what the test is for. Also, if everyone is using foci all the time... addiction tests.

As for that rest of it - you sent ghouls (who have no guns) charging into a mass of people that had machineguns in a semi fortified position. This is exactly what happened at Rouke's drift, except this time the British have automatic weapons, and the ghouls didn't have any snipers (the zulu's had hundreds of bad snipers at Rouke's drift)

Of course they were going to die. The same team would probably have been nailed if you just had 8 snipers with maximum augs and Barretas, rather than hundreds of ghouls.

Thirdly.. how does the mage have chr 11?

Lastly: You used the wrong spell. Use Mana static with the toxic shaman next time. A mana static on the mage would have ruined the entire party.

[Screamin Demon]

Improve attribute spell?
This is what I mean about the mages buffing themselves. Improved Charisma+elf=11 Charisma.

And I can start pressing the addiction angle, but with use of the 'detox' spell they can pretty much ignore any of the negative side effects after the drug wears off. It takes months and months for addiction to actually lower your magic attribute.
Focus addiction... I remember it in 3rd ed, but how exactly does it work in 4th? I'll check that avenue out.

[Cthulhudreams]

So thats more minuses against his casting skill (which you didn't mention, you said he had 5 improved reflex spells and was taking psyche and had a -5 modifier to the pool, so I assumed he didn't have any more sustained spells) and it still doesn't particularly explain how his casting pool is getting to 20.

But either way, hit him with a mana static! that shuts the entire thing down *hard core*

Edit: Oh you forgot enviromental mods, remember if it is dark, or the choppy ground gives cover, that is also a penalty to the spell casting too.)

[Screamin Demon]

I did. Let me break it down.

Being an Elf=6 Charisma
Having a force 5 Improve Charisma spell up=5 Charisma

Total it up?
11 Charisma
5 Skill
Force 3 power Focus

19 Spellcasting pool.
-5 from the massive number of spells being sustained (Which I did mention above)

Once you are enhancing both charisma and and willpower your drain pool yawns at all but the drainest drain.
His Countermagic is also equally impressive. So unless I throw a very powerful wizard out at him the spell will fizzle.
And I have a hard time giving anything short of full cover for the 12 meter aoe of a manna ball

If I am I murking up somewhere please tell me, it looks very plain and straightforward to me.

[Sma]

Casting Pool:

Magic Attribute + Spellcasting + Foci

Drain Pool:

Drain Attribute + Willpower (+Centering)

[Lionhearted]

Sounds like your mage is pulling your nose.. to have a Spellcasting pool of 19 even with maxed skill, specialisation and a powerfocus 3 (which.. if im not completely out the window.. costs 15 karma to bind) would need a magic score of 8 (and atleast initiate grade 2, if he is completely implant free) however, since he only had 5 in his spellcasting skill and no mentioned specialisation he would need a magic of 11 (initiate grade 5 wo. implants)
Summing up to a humongous pile of Karma (let say he had 6 magic from chargen) it would still be whooping 105 karma (Attribute raise= 3xnew ability) and additionally about, 30-40 karma from the initiation (potentially less w. ordeals/magical group) Unless your running a highpowered game, there's something wrong here, 11 charisma indeeds give mighty drain resistance.. but doesnt explain his Spellcasting DP..
Finally.. the golden rule of GM'ing.. dont forget to apply modifiers, visibility, background count (A nasty ghoul infested place, home to a toxic shaman to! wouldnt be very astrally clean), range and so forth.. Dont forget that with great powers, comes a great astral spotlight.. and some nifty signatures left behind. I put great weight in informing my players of "sure you can have two tons of metal in your body.. but dont complain, when the scanners go off" or "sure, you can cast force 10 manabolts if you can handle the drain... but dont forget that signatures is traceable" or "sure, you can attempt hacking Ares.. or even Horizon, but are you really suicidal?" It's a dangerous world, the sea of shadows.. and you sure aint the biggest fish around

[Cabral]

Some random thoughts to mess with the group:
Spash Grenades with Freeze Foam
Grenades (preferably following the above)
Great form Task Spirit Endowing several bruisers with binding (let them use binding instead of grappling and let them do it form a distance)

btw, how were grappled runners shooting SMGs and LMGs?

Also, you said he was sustaining 5 improved initiative spells not 5 improved initiative spells and Improved charisma. Were there any others?

And yes, the mage is overdue for multiple addiction tests

[Crusher Bob]

He can get to 18 with:

Magic 5 + power focus 3 + spellcasting 6 + specialization 2 + mentor spirit 2

Add in either spellcasting 7 or magic 6 for 19 dice. Of course, that's for only one type of spell.

[Lionhearted]

He can get to 18 with:

Magic 5 + power focus 3 + spellcasting 6 + specialization 2 + mentor spirit 2

Add in either spellcasting 7 or magic 6 for 19 dice. Of course, that's for only one type of spell.

ah yes, very limited specialisation although.. how is that old saying?
Overspecialize and you breed in weakness
Im anxiously awaiting clarification from OP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[twilite]

Screamin Demon said:

Being an Elf=6 Charisma
Having a force 5 Improve Charisma spell up=5 Charisma

Being very nitpicky, but it would have to be a Force 6 Improve Charisma spell, as the minimum force is the value of the attribute being improved.

[Cthulhudreams]

I did. Let me break it down.

Being an Elf=6 Charisma
Having a force 5 Improve Charisma spell up=5 Charisma

Total it up?
11 Charisma
5 Skill
Force 3 power Focus

19 Spellcasting pool.
-5 from the massive number of spells being sustained (Which I did mention above)

As everyone else has pointed out above, thats not how it works (that is his drain pool, not his spellcasting pool), plus you should have a -6 because he's maintaining the charisma buff and 5 improved reflexes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But either way, yeah, a mana static is the way to go as there is no resistance test so he only gets counterspelling (what, 4-6 dice for 1-2 successes? If he has 18 dice for counterpselling, 18 dice for drain, 18 dice for spellcasting and is using charisma for all of them, your problem is not that mages are OP, it is that your mage is actually cheating), and that will probably completely shut him down

Advantages of mana static

No resistance test, so very easy to get it in
Kills spirits and all active buffs with a one shot nut punch
If you can summon two force 12 spirits you can easily lay down a huge mana static (hell, get one of the spirits to cast it at force 12, giving you what, 8 successes for a 12 meter radius background count of 8? Instant one shot all of the mages spells.

[Screamin Demon]

There are 3 spellcasters in the group, between them they had the themselves and the premier fighters improved to 4 initiative passes. I know that the Dark-Mage had 5 spells all being sustained. Some of those were improved initiative, other were buffs on himself.

The Troll archer who was the only one to avoid a grapple shot two arrows, freeing the gun toting sammy, and he fired on the others alongside the 2 roto-drones and an upgraded doberman. Then the mages started in with insane drain pools and force 12 manaballs. It all went oatmeal after that. The ghouls might have had a chance if they acted on more then 1 initiative pass... Honestly it was more troll-arrows and atomic spinning manna balls, but what really killed those ghouls was the 3 passes they stood there, getting shot off of whoever they were on. I imposed a -4 dice penelty for shooting into a grapple, and on a glitch both grapplers will be hit. Nobody glitched.

I suppose the lesson I am going to learn from this is that shadowrun really is a game of shadows and firefights. The Ghouls kinda brought claws to a manna ball fight and got pasted. I can see how in the future (When they fight Cyberzombies

My primary concerns are the mages pumping their drain pool so high by augmenting both their drain attribute and willpower to somewhere around 24 and then launching force 12 manna balls all day long... I am in process of designing a cyberzombie badass enough to extract my vengence. I'll post his stats on a new thread, my goal is to make him immune to anything my cocky players can throw at it as so I may murder them all!!

Then start anew with Ganger chargen rules.

Good points on manna static. Sounds like just the tool for a Renraku strike team.

[DTFarstar]

Screamin Demon - The dice pool you use to cast spells is completely independent of the drain attribute(the state of the tradition- Charisma in this case). From what you listed, your mage should have had a dice pool for casting spells of 6(magic-I assume it isn't higher because you keep mentioning Force 12) + 5 skill + 3 power focus for a 14, which is respectable. However, keep in mine you need an increase attribute spell whose force is equal to or greater than the stat it is increasing. That stat is then increased by the number of hits he gets on his spellcasting test. With 14 dice, that is going to be 4 on average. So, 10 Charisma, and again, Charisma doesn't help with casting spells, just resisting drain. Once he is sustaining 5 spells or more his dice pool is 9, with anything but perfect lighting conditions that goes down even farther.

Mana Static adds a background count to the area equal to the number of hits generated on the spellcasting test. Background count lowers the magic rating of every magically active person, and the Force level of all spells and spirits by an amount equal to the count.(4 hits on Mana Static of 4 or higher= background count of 4 = -4 to the force of every spell, focus, mage, adept, and spirit in the area. Dismissing spirits, dispelling spells, and lowering the possible force of spells as appropriate. Adepts lose powers with a cost equal to the magic loss till they get out of the background count.

Also, do not ever let your players build characters around each other. It may not have happened this way, but it kind of sounds like they specifically built characters to be able to get the maximum benefit from each others abilities. Do the samaurais and adepts and such normally have initiative enhancement? If they don't hit them with a Mana Static to dispell the Increase Reflexes and they will power down greatly.

Chris

[Malicant]

Why ever play an adept when any mage that took the posession option could outshine them easily?
Why play a decker when as a mage (Improved initiative and 'Analyze device' spell) you can AR hack faster and use your computer more proficiently then any decker ever did. Same for rigging.

That is retarded propaganda and simply does not happen. Learn the rules and try to emulate the mage who does all that with 400 BP. Good luck.

Also, your problem seems to be that you are not very firm with the rules and your players are bullshitting you all over the place. Also, if your group has three mages you need to adapt the opposition to be a serious magical threat. And you need them to use accordingly, not clashing them like the tide against the players.

If you have too much time on hand post your players characters. If we know more, we can help you better. And in this case information is critical.

[GryMor]

19 spellcasting pool, isn't that hard, it's just resource restricted. Ignoring for the moment the +4 you can get to one school (spec and mentor), you can get extra dice from foci (spellcasting or power), aid sorcery (bound spirits or ally spirits), edge or even teamwork tests. Bound spirits and foci eat nuyen, foci and ally spirits eat karma, and edge is handy for other things, but 7 extra dice is easy, you just can't do it very often.

[Stahlseele]

so . . you wanna WIN shadowrun by killing off the whole group and now try to min/max and rules lawyer your NPC's to be able to beat them but complain about your players doing the same?

[Malicant]

Or maybe he wants to challange them. Right now he cannot even do that, as it seems.

[Stahlseele]

well, fighting is not all there is to shadowrun . . make them do legwork, make them do negotiations, make them be bodyguards . . all their fighting power won't help them anything, if they are not the target and the target is squishy . . then there's allways matrix-stuff and the such . .

[Larsine]

So how do you people deal with mages specializing in buffing powers to augment everyone and their sisters with 4 (total) initiative passes, and augmenting their casting attribute to their racial maximum?

I rewrote the whole Initiative System so IP bonuses are not the end all, and break all, of combat.

Lars

[WeaverMount]

I feel a little compelled to just to the OPs defense here. Yes he got he rules flat wrong about what stat to use with spell casting, likely ignored a bunch of spell casting minuses, also ignored the augmented max for charisma (If the elven mage didn't take exceptional attribute), etc etc etc. But but let's not attack people for missing large chunks of the game when they are new and explicitly asking for help.

Mages are pretty darn buff. If you have 3 highly skilled mages in your world, then yeah you will need to address magically. Mainly that is visibility mods and background count (Mana Static or nature). Pit them again a Geomantic Initiatory order and it will get ugly fast.

Another point:
>My primary concerns are the mages pumping their drain pool so high by augmenting both their drain attribute and willpower to somewhere around 24 and then launching force 12 manna balls all day long
This doesn't happen by RAW. AugMax caps Will+Drain Stat at 19 dwarfs and charisma tradition elves. There is still the centering meta magic and foci that could possibly put a drain put up at 24. So if your players aren't initiated and bonding sustaining foci they should be at 18-19 tops. 18 dice mean you explect 4 or 5 hit. F12 Mana Ball hits you with 8P damage. Yes you can cover with edge and be pretty safe, but I promise you that drain will add up if you don't put ever single foe in one room.

Also before you resort to cyber zombies, try good old fashioned drones. 3 IPs, cheep plentiful, flying, no fear of mana spells, OR of 4, etc. Drones can be scary to mages. Go ahead Pit them against a Rigger/Mage. 12 hardened armor, 12 Dodge DP and -10 to hit from conceal power and camo will shut down most Sams. The same -10 to hit and 12 resist dice (if the spirit has Magical Guard) will shut down most magicians. Even your non RAW mages would be looking a 19 -5 -10 = 4 vs 12 without any wounds or visibility mods.

Something to chew on. Most importantly I would encorage you to just re-read and familiarize yourself with the magic section again

[Screamin Demon]

Take it easy! Settle down with the non-constructive criticism, I don't need to come to a forum for people to tell me I am retarded, I can get that from any old lout anyplace. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Pointedly, yes I am still learning the rules, as demonstrated by the core concepts of magic I got blatantly wrong. I like to think that I make up for any lack of knowledge with conviction and enthusiasm, but perhaps that is a little egotistical of me.

My bad if I got bull headed.

My intent in overwhelming my PCs is at this point they've deemed themselves the masters of the system, due to many oversights of my own humble self the current characters came out of character generation with a good many pieces of equipment over acceptable availability. I am incapable of just taking stuff away after we've played a few games, I hate to retcon. So right now my favored course of action is to get a good ol'TPK and start on over with the rules more strictly enforced.

Not a nasty dragon drops out of the sky TPK, but I am going to exploit their very abuses against them. They have too much reliance on magic power. I stat up a nice Cyberzombie and have a decently powerful wagemage with a decently powerful counterspelling focus and be shielding the cyberzombie. Capping myself at -4 essence, thats a lot of dice to dispel any oncoming spells. And should they manage to flee the onslaught of this unstopable beast all those damn powerful foci they keep around constantly active is going to make it very easy for the Rak-Ghoul Cyberzombie monster to track them across the city and finish the job...

The 2 worst of the mages characters forsook the Edge Attribute and left it at a pathetic '1', thats 2 murders away from oblivion. I know it seems a little heavy handed to purposefully murder your players, but it brings a sense of danger and fear to the other players. And that fear ladies and gentlemen, is second only to love.

[edit]I had actually thought of having the Cyberzombie having a few cyberlimbs wired to a rigger, so in addition to being a cyberzombie it is also a platform of articulated arm mounted LMGs that are being rigged by a rigger wirelessly. I mainly choose cyberzombie because they are already in the plot and the players are somewhat apprehensive of seeing one. Drones are nice, but powerballs like my guys throw will just ruin their day.[/edit]