Insta-Gibbing PCs, Rationalizing your way out of it Options

[WeaverMount]

Ok I'm having an issue. I want my players to feel like if they slip up and do something that can get them tracked the will incur a Bad Thing ™. The rub is that I can't think of anything realistic that wouldn't be an insta-gib on my players. If a corp/syndicate/smart gang wants a runner dead and they know where they can find said runner it's game over. There are so many option for making a metahuman greasy spot before they have any idea that anything is up. A personal post Arsenal favorite of my is the 10k flying drone with a fully automatic grenade launcher with 250 rounds payload, and air-burst. It's a brutally effective tactic, putting 20 'nades in a room on a surprise round. Best part is you don't even need a scary huge DP. Air-burst scatter isn't that bad and volume does the rest. load it up with frag and the collateral damage wouldn't even be all that. I'm sure you all have boat loads of equally cheep and easy means of making heads asplode.

These leave me with a problem. To me it seem most logical to review each run after it's over. Figure out what the target could figure out about who hit them, and if they are willing and able to track the PCs then it's over. I imagine it would go something like this at the next meeting.

GM: Ok, it's the next day after your run. Who wants to do what?
Player: I want to hit my contact T-Bone for more ammo and to refill my first aid kit.
GM: Cool. You call you chat, she can meet you in an hour. want to jump to that?
Player: Sure
GM: Ok you leave your bunker of death and head out. Make a perception check at -8.
Player: ?... ok 1 hits
GM: mmmm sorry. You hear a burst of gun fire that doesn't quit sounds like the regular lead you know and love. You are about to wonder what it is when the world becomes a sea of explosions. Soak 10P -2AP 20 times.
Player: *Blink* .... I don't. Am I just dead?
GM: yup, sorry.
Player:What the hell happened?
GM: You took a shot on the run and left some blood at the MCT facility. A sec mage found the blood stain, tracked you down over night, and MCT had a drone waiting for you to leave your house. How do YOU like hammers now Mr. Eggshell!
Player: I hate you.

But that's about what would happen if any group with any resources wanted the runners dead. Thoughts?

[Stahlseele]

there's jail, there'S abductions with kink-bombs to make them do your bidding . . in general, most of those are bad ideas and scream GM Fiat somewhere, but there's close to no alternative . . as for effective? a simply Sniper with a gauss-cannon as a weapon for example would do the same more or less . .

[Cardul]

First: Remember that the Runners represent a future (deniable) asset to a corp. Even MCT uses runners(when it doesn't want to send in Cyber Zombies and handlers) because they cannot be directly traced to them. If a Runner team could get into YOUR heavily guarded facility, do you think they might be able to get into your opponents heavily guarded facility? You know have a known factor.

Second: Corps only have the freedom to act with impunity within their own extraterritorial property. They kill your guy at his Doss in Bellevue? Guess who comes a knockin for the person who flew the Drone?(I NEVER live in the Barrens! And, I generally, always play SINners)

Third: lets face it..killing runners is like closing the barn door after the horse already ran away....it is just not effective, and, really, only MCT or the Azzies are likely to go for revenge..and even MCT is likely to have to think about the cost-benefit analysis.

[WeaverMount]

. . in general, most of those are bad ideas and scream GM Fiat somewhere, but there's close to no alternative

All though option had occurred to me, but I thought they all seemed wrong for the reasons you said. What I'm asking is do we simply have to over look this to make our game go?

What I like about my 'nade-bot most is that it doesn't require anything special. Literally the hardest thing to get is the contact with facility access, and 10F weapon. IMO that is way easier to get than a gauss sniper that can one-shot shadow runners. But yeah, you gota love the classics

[Screamin Demon]

If you murder too many players the paranoia begins to choke up game play. I would launch a few 'wrong room' attacks first. Or a price put out on the player's head. Or something scary, but not lethal.

The way I would rationalize the corps not always seeking bloody retribution is that they have need for mercenary talent too, and seek to damage the corporation that hired them far more then the pawns used to accomplish the treachery.

[toturi]

The PC can also burn 1 Edge to survive, and if the GM doesn't allow that to happen, then it is no longer about whether the in-game threat but why the GM wants a PC dead.

[ElFenrir]

Sometimes, if the PCs are exceptionally skilled, the corps might well be trying to HIRE them rather than kill them. Why waste that talent? Some corps can be rather unscrupulous though, offer their friends money to sell them to the corp, offer THEM money to leave their friends, as well as power and prestige in the job, give them 'offers they can't refuse''. I mean, I liken it to those actual hacker prodigies that hack the government(not script kiddies), there are several instances where after some initial discipline they are offered jobs, since you WANT that kind of skill on your side rather than against you.

[crizh]

Grenade drone.

Do you not only get 250 rounds with belt-fed weapons?

Other than that you only get normal ammo cap' and that's all you get in an additional bin as well.

Others may know better but that was my understanding.

[WeaverMount]

Good call on the HoG.

By and large though I think people are missing my question, which is what happens when someone wants the PCs dead? Yes, the unfeeling corps don't really care that you just ran against them if they can hire/coerce them. Yes the Triad, in their grandmotherly kindness, might give you a chance to redeem your honor some how, etc etc etc. But if the players do some thing where someone with 20k and contacts wants them dead that's it. Game over. What I''m struggling with how make that threat credible without with nibbing PCs to prove a point.

[crizh]

PC's have contacts too.

If they don't have enough to get wind of what's happening, tough...

I just built a very similar drone based on a modified LZ2065 mounting a heavy Gauss Cannon. It hovers in the upper Stratosphere and makes mince of anyone within 50 klicks that it's owner takes a dislike to.

The solution here is to not get caught by folks that will punch your ticket.

Give them one warning, even a near miss with a Gauss Cannon ought to catch their attention, and then give them everything they deserve.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

But if the players do some thing where someone with 20k and contacts wants them dead that's it.

That entirely depends on the paranoia of the characters involved - and soon, it may not be 20k total, but 200k or 2m.

Simply because you have to track down everyone in the chain to get at the end of it... and Johnsons and fixers don't really like that.
And of course, you better be damn fast at tracking, because normally, when the heat reaches contacts, someone is going to inform the target.

[Cardul]

Actually...that makes alot of sense..

Why go after the Runners to make a point?
They have contacts, right? People you and them have built some sort of relationship with, that thye have put time and effort into building up.

I know, in one SR3 game I ran, they got in really good with a Metarights activist. They did things to help her out, she did things to help them out. They got a REALLY good relationship going with this contact...to the point wher they were seen in public with her numerous times(and..I mean, like Dante's level public). So, when they did something stupid...guess who they found dead one day? In one of those gruesome ways? And then, imagine how quiet their OTHER contacts got for a while? Especially when someone took a pock shot at one guys bar-tender contact(note: that was PURELY random violence..if it had been the people they had gotten on the bad side of..the guy would have died...slowly and painfully...but, it was enough to make contacts think that someone was gunning for the runners contacts)

[WeaverMount]

Having appropriate contacts give the players a heads up is really good too. That enables story and choice rather fiat and graves.

That entirely depends on the paranoia of the characters involved - and soon, it may not be 20k total, but 200k or 2m.

Simply because you have to track down everyone in the chain to get at the end of it... and Johnsons and fixers don't really like that.
And of course, you better be damn fast at tracking, because normally, when the heat reaches contacts, someone is going to inform the target.

Yes 20k doesn't buy enough firepower and skill to kill anyone ever, true. 20k and commitment can force almost anyone to live in highly controlled bunker like conditions almost all the time. For AAA execs that means Arcologies with amazing security, private estates, Sub Orbital planes with counterspelling initiates on in the crew etc. For a runner this mean well a bunker. Mr. Exec can live a long and happy life with tons of people trying to off them for 20k. A runner is forced into a siege situation rather quickly. Even if they can survive it moves in to game over rather quickly. As other pointed out, runners have a really hard time when everyone they talk to blows up.

[Larme]

The corps want to hurt the people that hired the runners much more than the runners. If they use a NadeStorm drone of doom on the runners, they will never know. The only time a corp would directly target runners is if the runners do something really bad, like in order to steal a datafile they kill the whole security team, or in order to destroy a prototype they bomb an entire facility.

But even if the runners act egregiously enough to get targeted themselves, it's important to remember what corps care about: the bottom line. They also care about reputation, but since they can't admit they were the victims of a successful shadowrun, and because they can't hold up the shadowrunners publicly and say "we got the guys what done the thing that we deny ever happening," they're not going to be able to salvage their reputation by killing the runners. If runners do something really bad, the corps will be asking: who the hell is going to fix this? Maybe if the runners slaughtered a whole security force, they'll get captured, and have cranial bombs installed, and THEY will get to be the security force. See how they like getting attacked by shadowruners, eh? That would save the corp the cost of rehiring security people, which would maintain the bottom line. Or if the runners blow up a 10 million yen facility, they might find themselves forced to do 10 million yen worth of runs to pay for it, getting compensated only for expenses, and maybe getting some rewards in gear, but mostly being pocket runners for the corporation.

[Aaron]

One would imagine it be far more efficient for a corp, government, or syndicate to just put a price on the runner's head and be done with it. In order for an organization to go after a shadowrunner, they would have to divert resources from other projects. It's not like they have people just sitting around waiting for orders to go after shadowrunners.

[KCKitsune]

Good call on the HoG.

By and large though I think people are missing my question, which is what happens when someone wants the PCs dead? Yes, the unfeeling corps don't really care that you just ran against them if they can hire/coerce them. Yes the Triad, in their grandmotherly kindness, might give you a chance to redeem your honor some how, etc etc etc. But if the players do some thing where someone with 20k and contacts wants them dead that's it. Game over. What I''m struggling with how make that threat credible without with nibbing PCs to prove a point.

how dead do you want your players? If you want them dead, then there's nothing they can do... unless their mage has a Ally Spirit looking out for them (I'd have my Ally Spirit watch my back while I sleep and then make damn sure he's happy!).

Also the group may have security running at their safe house. I mean slave the security system to an Agent and have another agent running Matrix overwatch for the first Agent. If the second Agent detects an intrusion then it screams to the Hacker and he can deal with any threats with the Black Hammer of Doom™. The first Agent on the other hand is doing a 360 degree scan of the neighborhood and if it's seeing drones of doom or armed men coming for the runners then it can attack with it's own drones.

[WeaverMount]

Tryingto break out of an eddie this thread keep slipping into, I am assuming that someone wants to kill the PCs. Yes I have heard all the reasons that corps are not about that, I get it. At my table the corps dominate the game world, but not the game. In my current game we've been playing for 8 months and not once have we had a Johnson higher te PCs to hit an extraterritorial facility. When I say a hypothetical someone wants them dead, I'm not thinking about MCT -I'm thinking about nobodies. Punks calling out the resident big dog at high noon, risking an early death for a shot small time fame and a nice comlink. I'm thinking about Syndicate calling for a blood hunt on the PCs because they offed someone's relative.

As an aside I think it's funny you mention

>like in order to steal a datafile they kill the whole security team

I think the single most comment reason for a corp to target runners for elimination is if they took pay data and the corp thinks it can close the information loop.

[Larme]

That's a good point, though what are the odds of that, really? They can only close the information loop if they get on it right away, because it's probably a small matter of time before the team drops the data off.

Now, assuming a crime syndicate wants to do a Bad Thing to the runners, and you don't want to instagib them, I'd go for a good old fashioned shoot-em-up: a bunch of guys with ARs doing supressive fire into the team's hideout. It's something that the runners can survive, but it will wreck all their stuff and force them to relocate. Or they might use a few incendiary grenades -- same effect, and the runners won't die because a fire is not very deadly until it has a few rounds to get going. It would be especially bad if they had a hideout with a big ammo store, since they'd need to replace their ammo, and get the hell out of there before it blew.

The fact is, crime orgs don't automatically use the top shelf, instant death tactics on everyone they decide is their enemy. The streets share an uneasy truce. If one group starts playing hardball on everyone, everyone starts playing hardball on them. They won't pull out the master sniper assassin, or the full auto grenade launcher, for every Joe Runner that pisses them off, because they're just as defenseless against those things as anyone. If they annihilate their enemies' headquarters, their other enemies won't hold back. If an org is willing to go from 0 to full-on autokill against everyone they dislike, anyone who thinks the org might be about to become their enemy is going to try and do it first. And that's bad for business.

[KCKitsune]

Tryingto break out of an eddie this thread keep slipping into, I am assuming that someone wants to kill the PCs. Yes I have heard all the reasons that corps are not about that, I get it. At my table the corps dominate the game world, but not the game. In my current game we've been playing for 8 months and not once have we had a Johnson higher te PCs to hit an extraterritorial facility. When I say a hypothetical someone wants them dead, I'm not thinking about MCT -I'm thinking about nobodies. Punks calling out the resident big dog at high noon, risking an early death for a shot small time fame and a nice comlink. I'm thinking about Syndicate calling for a blood hunt on the PCs because they offed someone's relative.

OK, I understand what you were asking and I gave two separate ways for the runners to get the bejezzus scared out of them, without reducing them to chunky bits scattered over the neighborhood. Here's a third way:

Hacker hacks into the Gridguide system and just gives himself a viewing login (meaning he can look through the cameras, but can't mess with the Grid itself). This type of account is so low key that Sys Admins would most likely overlook it for a long time (if they ever found it). The Hacker then slaves an agent to watch those cameras around their homes and if there's higher than normal activity then the hacker gets alerted and he then alerts the rest of the team.

The 'Runners would then know that someone wants them VERY VERY dead. They would then have to deal with this problem or be dead... which would suck twelve different ways from Sunday.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Yes 20k doesn't buy enough firepower and skill to kill anyone ever, true. 20k and commitment can force almost anyone to live in highly controlled bunker like conditions almost all the time.

Hardly. It means using a new face, name (and leaving town, at most.)
Then cleaning everyone that had the great idea to offer up a bounty.

Said game works both ways, and runners are less tied.

[Stahlseele]

20k? not enough?
some kilo of explosives and somebody to place them in an effective manner means a huge boom O.o

[KCKitsune]

Uh, guys, WeaverMount was wanting to know how to 'Runners would survive if the Corps (or some other high mucky muck) wanted them dead. I gave three ways (more like two ways and 2 ways to do one of those... Magic & the Matrix).

Here's another way that runners might be able to survive. They pay off the local gangs to give them heads up when weird shit is going down in the 'hood. You can't exactly move in that much firepower without someone knowing it. The informants give the 'Runners a call and let them know that they may want to keep their heads down.

[kzt]

Sometimes, if the PCs are exceptionally skilled, the corps might well be trying to HIRE them rather than kill them.

If they were so skilled they wouldn't be found 12 hours later, as they wouldn't have left the clues. Killing people who steal stuff from you is an effective deterrent. And SR is typically filled with random violence, so a runner getting "accidentally caught up" in something that gets him dead is also "deniable". My belief would be that they would want the Johnson and the fixer much more than the runner, though having the runner die is certainly not an undesirable outcome from their point of view.

The nerostun in the car with a hacked computer works well. The doors lock as the gas gets released, you pass out and your car drives you to MCT. However this does requires a lot more legwork than having an invisible f6 spirit just manabolt you 4 times in your sleep after it tracks you down.

[hermit]

Ok I'm having an issue. I want my players to feel like if they slip up and do something that can get them tracked the will incur a Bad Thing â„¢.

Entangle them in the mess that is Tir Taingire. Nothing keeps your paranoia awake like vengeful elves do.

Or just have a SWAT move in on the player characters at embarassing moments (shagging mates, sleeping, taking a shower). A properly played SWAT will take out any single 'runner. Use tasers and Gel rounds and have them wake up and find themselves sitting across the table of Agent Malone, who details to them just how many centuries they will have to spend in maximum security porisons. Best, do this just to one PC, the sloppiest, and let him have the opportunity to sell oput his fellow PC ... just so everyone learns a little about how paranopia keeps you alive. PCs caught are sentenced and shipped to a max securioty prison in antarctica, thus effectively out of play entirely.

All that is assuming you really want to fuck them over, not just warn them in a serious way.

[cndblank]

On the Corp front, it is some Exec that has a mad on that will orders the hit.
He then budgets X amount of black resources to handle it.

The thing is is that the exec has to account for those resouces.
If the cred runs out and there the hit hasn't been made or is only partial successful, then he has to make a decision on putting more cred after bad.
And that also assumes that he hasn't had some other issue come up with a higher priority. New quarter new goals to reach and new crisis to deal with.
And it he is promoted or replaced then it will be forgotten (mostly) as the new exec takes over.

The thing about runners is they are suppose to shadows. In a big sprawl like Seattle there are dozens of teams of runners that could have pulled a run off and tens of dozens of amateurs that are dumb enough to try and might have gotten luck.

After a big run the pros either act like nothing has happened and they were not involved or just go to ground for a few weeks until the heat is off.
They shouldn't be leaving traces that lead people directly back to them.
When the heat is on it should be because the corp wants to retrieve the extracted target or prototype or really needs to know who order the run (and that is a long shot if the Johnson did his job right).

Of course any runner that gets that predictable deserves what he gets. And if he isn't deep enough in to the shadows then his friends and family might end up paying the consequences. A runner should make a point of disappearing fairly regularly and if he knows a big run is coming up then he might want to have already set up an alibi (going out of town for a courier job a week before the run).


Obviously if they got made and IDed then they screwed up and should consider a new handle, a new face, and a new town.

As to how to do so without an insta kill, I would say remember the limitations the opposition is facing. Gangers, the various syndicate, and even other runners are not going to be the best of the crop. So unless they got the attention of the really big boys then... they might have a chance.

They might choose the wrong tactics, the wrong place, use the wrong people, not have enough people to hit everyone at once, or just hose up because they are making it too complicated.

They might choose a drive by rather than a sniper shot. They might have to do it up close and personal. They might ask around and ask the wrong person so word gets back to the players. They might try to put a bomb under one of your player's car and have it go off in their face. They might plant a bomb at an apartment and trip an alert and be caught live on vid, giving one of your players the tip off that someone is after them. Now image them franticly trying to let everyone else know before they walk in to an ambush or a bobby trap.

If you are really mean you can keep them guessing as to who is behind it or even if they were really the target. Was that drive by after us or the trio of local gangers we had just walked by.