This is why we can't have nice things..., Says one UCAS Marine to another... Options

[DocTaotsu]

We’ve talked about what happens after enhanced people get out of the military but a recent spat of "Military members being complete retards" IRL spawned a lively discussion in my group about how militaries in 2070 would deal with super soldiers. Being that my current job description effectively reads “Scrape drunk Marines/Sailors off pavement and take them to the hospital� I can personally attest that military member + alcohol= Shenanigans and consequently, pistol whipping. Adding cyberspurs, enhanced reflexes, and so forth would only make this equation more unpleasant. Also, if they are cybernetically enhanced I can only assume that they’re going to see more combat which, historically, means they’ll have a much higher incidences of PTSD (not to mention cyberpsychosis).

Corpsman: “Okay, what’s going on?�
MAA/PMO: “Uh… well we had him contained until he tripped his reflex trigger, exuded foot long blades, and clawed Harrison’s face off. We’re pretty sure he spit acid on Reynolds too.�
Corpsman: “But where is he now?�
MAA/PMO: “Oh he’s on top of that 15 story building having a seizure. We’re waiting for the duty rigger to get a drone up there to bring him down. I don’t think he’s breathing, he turned blue about 10 minutes ago.�
Corpsman goes to his ambulance and cries.

Much of these problems would probably be mitigated by smaller numbers of troops with more training and not all that much cyber (it’s expensive and probably not worth putting into a 4 year contract soldier). I’d also imagine that the military makes use of combat drugs because they’re cheap, effective, and are easier to control than a set of wires.

The other obvious thing to do would be to stick to cyberware, it’s cheap and it should be easy to install hardwired cutouts and removable components. If you’re conducting training or going to war you have to head down to the armory and check out the pieces necessary to take your body off safe. By making it an actual piece of hardware that’s removed you avoid the whole situation where hackers find your kill codes and set your platoon to “rag dolls�. It also amuses me to imagine enhanced soldiers practicing with foam cyberspurs. I suppose in theater you still have the issue of bored soldiers using their weapons to hurt themselves/each other but that’s what freeze foam is for right?

Of course this is all avoiding the sticky issue of magically active soldiers. I’m riveted by the image of a 18 year old kid who can throw force 4 fireballs getting drunk and angry and blowing up a cab driver because of a disagreement over the bill. Worse yet, how do you control a halfway decent adept in between missions? Magically active people might represent a small percentage of the total population but I’d imagine that they’d typically find their way into the ranks of a military or a corps. Which leads to a question about how magically active folk fit into a military structure. My best guess is that they’d have to be at least warrant officers so they could legally be responsible for the amount of destruction they walk around with. That and enlisted pay is probably just not going to cut when the corps are waving this huge wads of certified cred at them.

So what do you all think? Bunrak Parlor the lot of them?

[Dr. John Desmond]

For soldiers/Marines with ware and access to goodies, it would likely be based off MOS/Job Field at first (your military riggers/deckers/ect). With possiblities of more implants as you get promoted or maybe as a reenlisment option? Of course your SF guys and officers are going to get access to better items (probably better grades and sooner). It is almost certain that they are not going up to the the 1st Sgt and saying "Top who do I have to cap to get some wired reflexes?" Also likely it is something they are able to waiver if they do not want the implants. I also concur with the safe mode feature requiring unlock by the armorer probably with the CO's orders.

As for awakened soldiers I concur on the Warrent Officer training. Probably a seperate bootcamp too, cause I know more than a few times on the Island if i could have torched Senior Drill Instructor Ssgt Hernandez with a fireball I would have never made it off the island.

Would be an interesting write up to do.
Standardized military augmentation. FM style.

As an aside DOC if you ever had to stitch me up after one of my drunken debacles in my ill tempered youth in the Corp... sorry.

[Magus]

That kinda reminds me of the Novel series Cobras! I cannot remember the author, where a young man from a back colony world enlists and volunteers for the C.O.B.R.A corp whereas they implant CyberTechnology (ie MBW a cyber implanted grendade/rifle in the left leg, Pinky Lasers) they cannot be removed but the ssytems can be downgraded from Super Soldier to better than average man. Good Series.

[HullBreach]

Oh man Im just thinking of all the shananigans I was involved in while I was in, and how much worse it would've been with Cyber and magic mixed in! Granted, the inter-service pranks would've been that much more entertaining, but wow the NJP's!

[DocTaotsu]

Wares would undoubtedly be MOS/NEC/Specialty based. I just couldn't see the economics of doing heavy modifications on first term enlistments. I’d have to flip through the book but I don’t recall gene mods being all that cheap. I also think you’d have to agree to implantation to be rated in various specialties (rigger and spec ops as obvious examples). If you refuse implantation you’d probably miss out on all the “cool” jobs that people would fight for.

God… could you imagine Officer Candidate School for the Awakened?
“GODDAMNIT MR CHO! I SWEAR TO THE GREAT SPIRIT THAT IF YOU DON’T PUMP OUT ANOTHER 10 PUSHUPS I WILL TURN YOU INTO GOO AND HAVE YOUR PLATOON SUCK YOU UP WITH STRAWS! WITH STRAWS! NOW PUSH DAMNIT!”

I agree that it would be an interesting write up, one that I might approach after I get done with some real world concerns. I would also like to see what people think about the wares the officers would get. I’ve always had this image of senior officers with a head full of command hardware interpreting incoming data and coordinating their orders with other similarly rigged commanders.

And as long as you didn’t try to knife anyone, I can deal with that.

Besides, how else am I supposed to get good at throwing a stitch, pig feet just don’t do it for me.

Interservice pranks?! Holy god, could you imagine Army, Marine, and Navy riggers getting into pissing matches over whose EW is better? You know, right before the SOTA delta grade Airforce riggers crash everyone’s nets and make off with their drones/vehicles. The terrible, terrible things you could do with ruthenium polymer coatings…
“Navy sucks di- Those sons of bitches!”

[Lionhearted]

Only a small part of the population is awakened, however a significant larger part of it have some knowledge of what makes them tic, without doubt UCAS Military have that knowledge and would probably enforce harsh restrictments on magicians.. like forcing them to take Geasas (Talisman, Condition most likely), or equipping them with Personal manastatic spells anchored to a necklace, belt, armband or the like that cannot be removed without the permission of a commanding officer

[DocTaotsu]

Plus I'm sure they make them wear those screaming slug things. Sure it doesn't stop them from using their talent but it certainly makes it obvious that they're trying to do something magical.

[ornot]

All joking aside I'm not sure how intact an Awakened's talent would be after boot camp. Frankly I doubt you'd get any magic users in the enlisted ranks. I reckon mages and the like would be given an officer's rank, much like an MD. Indeed the whole service would probably be a separate division - the UCAS Awakened Corps - and probably has its own Initiatory group.

[HullBreach]

I agree that it would be an interesting write up, one that I might approach after I get done with some real world concerns. I would also like to see what people think about the wares the officers would get. I’ve always had this image of senior officers with a head full of command hardware interpreting incoming data and coordinating their orders with other similarly rigged commanders.

This is how I think cyber will actually be introduced if we ever get around the infection barrier problems. While I was in the 'Corps I was involved in Electronic Intelligence analysis, so I can definately not only see a use, but a pressing need for this sort of tech for commanders.

The Marine Corps is already investing heavily in precursor technologies to AR (Its called enhanced reality in the official programs) for use by squadleaders on up in the field, with the eventual goal of equipping everyone with it. I think this is likely to be a more successful program than the Army's Land Warrior abortion because its extremely focussed on getting info to and from the troop.

I could see higher-ups (company commanders on up) using full-immersion VR to allow them a "gods eye veiw" of the battlefield from which they could direct assets, task drones, and continuously monitor intelligence. There would be a support staff of Agent software and actual meat intel analysts (my future equivalents) massaging and fusing the data fed to the commander. I could also see the use of a team of dedicated intel mages who would astrally survey the battlefeild, then pop back to their meat to report on what they saw (this would then be fed to the commander).

This is basically just an evolution on how things work today, just made faster, better, and more thourough through the use of advanced interface technologies.

[Wakshaani]

I go in reverse, personally.

Combat drugs are *the* big equalizer, are quick to introduce (No downtime for recover from Wired Reflexes for you, kiddie!), don't run off when teh soldier decides not to re-up, and leaves control in central command's hands. (Unit 14's gone native? No worries. In three days, they'll be out of juice.)

Smartgun cyber's now dead weight, thanks to fully-equitable non-cyber Smartgun links, radio and commlinks work just fine in helmets/backpacks, and why invest in spurs when a combat knife works just as well?

Aside from your SEAL/Green Beret/Special Forces units, I'd wager that Bob the Soldier just doesn't have jack didly in terms of upgrades. Not cost efficient!

[DocTaotsu]

I could only see very low powered Awakened finding their way into the enlisted ranks. And even than I'd imagine there would be all sorts of "Seaman to Admiral" programs to convince them to increase they're magical abilities. Military Initiate groups would be a sticky issue, that's an awful lot of power to stick in one place.

AR in a light non retarded package would be incredible. I salivate openly at an AR evacuation system where biomonitors are constantly feeding casualty telemetry to line corpsmen who instantly identify patients that need to be evaced. Medical officers in the rear could have agents that digitally triage incoming patients, requesting tasked transport and tracking them from battlefield to BAS and onward. Gone would be the days of scribbling "T/M 2350" on someones forehead and hoping it doesn't wash off or get obscured. It'd be such an organic system, self sustaining and healing, it'd... it'd... be glorious.

Oh and uhm... yeah, tasking armor with your mind, that's uhm... pretty cool too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


I think the big non spec ops cyber would be control rigs. There's just so much utility you get out of them, I'm hard pressed to think of a reason not to give a vehicle operator one. Besides, it's great for recruitment.
"Hey fatty! How'd you like to drive a tank... WITH YOUR MIND?! See, I knew you'd be interested..."
If you're going to spend all that money on vehicles, you might as well make sure that whoever drives them can make three complex actions in 6 seconds and possibly drive several vehicles at once.

[Dr. John Desmond]

Aside from your SEAL/Green Beret/Special Forces units, I'd wager that Bob the Soldier just doesn't have jack didly in terms of upgrades. Not cost efficient!

See this is where the difference between a Corp and the military comes into play. While yes the basic smart gun radio comlinks are cheaper there are the inevitable breakdowns, spare parts, "Lt you talking to yourself again because the 5590 battery in the radio is dead(and yes no matter how advanced the future is big brick lithium based batteries still exist in my future)" ect.

Now if you cyber up Pvt So and so what do you get. First you get a much BIGGER budget, second you get a moral builder (We got smartlink handcannons, Wired reflexes that can make you move before the bad guy even gets a chance to say f...., 15ft cybers spurs, sharpened sticks), third you get a moral breaker...

1st Sgt: You mean to tell me after ALL the things the Corp has given you, a home, a mission, chrome that makes Susie all wet in her pretty pink thong, your gonna leave my Marine Corp? What are you Sgt So&SO a bleeding heart paney? Or are you a WAR MACHINE?!?

All said and done cost effective does not save the day.

[DocTaotsu]

If there are big brick lithium batteries I'm getting frozen until they are not. If the future isn't Navy proof I don't want to play ;p.

"1st Sgt! I'm getting a job where I'm treated like a human being!"
High Threat security guard manabolted to death on first day of job. News at 11.

Still I think that the military is going to get whatever the corps don't want. But corps probably don't need the manpower so a few choice rubes are going to end up at their UCAS/CAS recruiter and sign their name for those classy 5 year contracts. Offering cyberware to Pvt Nobody is probably not a great gig since Pvt nobody has the highest probability of going UA (AWOL) while he's still Pvt Nobody and not Cpl Nobody.

I also return to my previous statement that turning 18 year old former gangers into wired killing machines might not be such a great idea. Wait till they're a little older and have proven that they aren't going to throw a fit and shoot everyone in their fire team.

[HullBreach]

I've been thinking about this, and the second season of Ghost in the Shell: SAC deals with a concept that I think is important: Maintnence.

The Major, Batou, and other heavily cybered individuals need a lot of maintnence and upkeep on their high-performance bodies. This is expensive. The second season introduced a character that had what was referred to as a low-maintnence body, and it was basically a self-healing combat cyberbody.

All that maintnence and upkeep could be a real bitch in the field. Try explaining to your LT why your squad isn't good to go because your machine-gunners wired reflexes are on the fritz.

On the other hand, Bioware makes PERFECT sense, if it can be done relatively economically. Some of the more life saving types (platlet factories, etc.) make sense, and I could see quite a bit of the other stuff making sense too. The beauty of bioware is that it is virtually zero maintnence: So long as you make your the troop is fed and gets some rack-time, hes good to go.

[DocTaotsu]

But it's expensive as all get out, a lot of it needs to be vat grown and so on and so forth.

I'm sure a move towards bioware is part of the militaries "10 Year Modernization Aquisition Program" but cyberware is just so damn cheap. Maintenance or not I think it's the norm in 2070.

Now... 2075... that might be a different matter.

[eidolon]

All said and done cost effective does not save the day.

I have to agree with Wakshaani for the most part. The militaries in my SR world are just corps with governments ostensibly pulling the strings, and that means that gear is (still (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) built by the lowest bidder, units don't always get everything they need or want, and they certainly don't wire up every line soldier in the ranks.

Also, assuming that you're going to have massive turnover, with people leaving after their first tour to join a private sec force or just to pursue another career path, you want those soldiers to be able to go to the supply depot and turn in their smartlink system, armor, etc., and you're going to charge them for what they lost. Then, you're going to brush the dirt off of it and hand it to the next private that comes to the unit. It's how it works today, and I don't see that changing in the regular military.

Special forces, career officers, etc? I can see them getting ware. Anyone else is going to get the bare minimum needed to do their job, and not a stitch more.

[DocTaotsu]

There's nothing to stop the military from doing second hand cyber either. Lost an arm in Columbia? No problem here's one that shoots lasers. Getting out tomorrow? No problem, here's a civilian model that doesn't let you bench press the moon. So you wanna be recon? No problem, here's a lightly used arm that shoots lasers.... etc etc.

Seeing as I have to turn in my thermal undies when I move on, I wouldn't put it past them.

I think the PR side of it will still be served, but in the same way it is today. The trids will show you SEAL's doing transatmospheric drops and sporting move by wire, the reality is that your first 2 years are spent getting intimately familiar with your "cyber swab" and "delta grade dust pan".

[HullBreach]

Hell, they probobly wouldn't even give you anodized ware. I could totally see a Corporal sitting on his bunk Brass-o'ing his arm LOL

[nezumi]

If you base your Shadowrun off the modern day instead of 1989 (which I understand some people do), you'll notice that even now experienced people are leaving the military for the better pay and benefits of the corporate world. The Navy is throwing huge sign-on bonuses and only painty-wasted services like the Air Force are regularly meeting recruitment goals. I suspect in the future the military is going to have to go one of two ways - low investment, short-term troops (i.e. - combat drugs) or set up programs to guarantee long service, but wire them to the max (or a mix of the two, that's probably the most likely, really). Some forces are simply going to need more long-term guys than others. Aviators, of course, are going to need to be pulled in for long terms, but they need a VCR, so no question there. Next to that, I have to imagine the front-line grunts like Marines are the ones who they're going to want to invest the most gear into. This, of course, begs the question of what sort of leverage are you going to use to keep a guy in the job from 18 to 38 while groups like Ares are offering more pay and better gear once you've got a few years under your belt.

[DocTaotsu]

Hullbreach=
*closes his eyes and pinches the bridge of his nose*

That... is the most depressing thing I have ever heard.

What happens if you already have some SOTA ware before you join? You think they'd just hand out waivers?


There's no reason not to join a corps after your military career.

Unless you have a morbid fear of dying.

I think we're forgetting that many of the people who joing the military do so because they:

A.) Need money for college
B.) Are bored/Make Poor Life Decisions
C.) Think the military is going to make them a man
D.) Are crazy
E.) No bullshit patriotism
F.) Have serious problems with "traditional" work environments

Or a combination of thereof. Corps are going to want you for the long term and they're going to make you sign a contract that says "I will obey Papa Ares until the day a runner shoots me full of holes". If you're only looking to make a little money, go to school, and play with some toys, the military sounds like a pretty cool gig. The way Shadowrun makes it sound the life of a corporate security guard is a whole lot more dangerous than a cook on sub. The other thing to consider is that the military needs those 1 or 2 termers. If everyone who joined stayed in for 20 years there'd be a whole lot of high paid Chiefs and not enough money for reasonable numbers of Indians. I'd also imagine that military recruiters are going to have lower standards than corps recruiters. Are you an Ork who has a listed address in the Barrens? Got a SIN? Great! Welcome to the Army! Need a SIN? We can do that too! Score high on standardized tests, like golf, air conditioning, and getting off at lunch time? Great! Welcome to the Air Force! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Do you like cleaning things and suffering hundreds of years of gay sailor jokes? Great! Welcome the Navy. YOU AREN'T WORTHY OF BEING IN MY CORPS. Erm... but we have quotas. I guess you can join the Marines.

We have cyber now, they Army is using bioware and they let us have all their old units.

So yeah, drugs and light cyber for first termers. Package deals for lifers. Corps are going to pay more but the military sounds safer in 2070. Besides I'm sure there's at least 3 people who read "Starship Troopers" and think that it's their civic duty to join up.

[Dr. John Desmond]

Plus Cyberware is ALOT harder to break or misplace. Plus if you have been in the military you know that with exceptions nothing is SOTA, and ware has been around a good long time. Plus if you can get it done at a body shop in the Mall and you have technically illegal aliens (SINless) running around with it, Uncle Sam? Uncle Pierre? whatever is not going to be outdone by common lowlifes. Plus we are talking about the CAS and UCAS militaries which were born of the US Military. Always trying to project the image of biggest and baddest.

[DireRadiant]

Skillwires. Who needs bootcamp? Instant grunts. Save the good cyber for the careerists and specialists.

[HullBreach]

What happens if you already have some SOTA ware before you join? You think they'd just hand out waivers?

Seem's likely to me. If it was illeagal ware, it would probobly raise some eyebrows and earn the recruit a more thourough background check, but I don't think the cash-strapped military is going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

My guess would be, ware would be handled sort of like the recruiting bonuses they do nowadays. For example: The Marines are short on job X. A signing bonus is offered for Job X and one of the options for said bonus is to get it as ware after completing training and a year in the fleet. Thats enough time for the shit-bags to wash out, and it still gives the Corp's 2-4 years (depending upon the contract) of 'use' of that ware.

[DocTaotsu]

At which point the ware is probably going to be obsolete anyways.
I brought that point up because I remember seeing a guy in bootcamp who had a full non-removable gold "grill". I think he forgot how to smile by the end of bootcamp.


Skilwires have merit but until they start making "Don't be dumb" a standard feature you probably need bootcamp to hardwire some basics into peoples wetware. Just because you can shoot decently doesn't make you a particulalry effective soldier.

[Fix-it]

am I the only one who would think that they would have cyberware that disables itself while the user is under the influence as a design feature?