Here be dragons, Runners Companion Preview Options

[ToreadorVampire]

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/?p=220

So - how many people will be "GM's discretion-ing" those out of their games? I know I will ...

... maybe I will allow it if I ran an uber campaign, the same one where I allow PC jarheads and vampires and stuff?

[Abschalten]

My abbreviated response: NO.

I seriously hope this is a Day Late April Fool's joke.

[HullBreach]

Oh hell no! Not as PC's!

I can see using one of these as a contact or even as a plot NPC, but not as PC's.

[ToreadorVampire]

Hah, well - as we were just saying on IRC - if you don't like an optional rule (especially from the book that is "the optional rules book") then you don't have to use it.

I guess it's kind of nice that it has been put in the companion, and if the SRC is going to be a big hardback like the other 'crunch books' I think they have a lot more space to fill than they did in the SR3 companion. Plus, the companion doesn't need to contain the point-buy system for chargen anymore.

Either way, whilst that's a "grab your attention" kind of thing to put in the preview, I can't say dracoform PCs would be something I would use day-to-day. They would be saved up for a really high-powered campaign I think, especially since I like dragons to be really rare (like, 'you can't play one as a PC' rare).

[Nightwalker450]

Aww, I still can't spend more than half my points on attributes. Must be for those more than 400 BP characters where this would be a problem, since there's a 300 or 325 BP cost to be a dragon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I can't imagine too many GM's allowing their players to be Dragons, but its good to have a format to build NPC's with.

[It trolls!]

I'd guess dragon PCs would be for an all-dragon high-power game. If a GM allows a PC dragon into a regular game, it's the GM to blame, not the rules.
The Companion has always been about optional and alternate rules and settings and unless the designers don't go overboard with catering to niche settings, I'm ok with it.

[Moon-Hawk]

Intriguing.

[Sma]

Go Obsidimen!

[nathanross]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Wow! If that is not an April fool's joke then I don't know what it is. Seriously, Drakes are already hard enough to pull off, real Dragons now? I'm not believing this until I see it in print. The biggest issue would not actually be the raising of PC powerlevel, but the complete nerfing of dragons to make them balanced as PCs.

[Earlydawn]

Operating on the assumption that this isn't an April Fool's joke, does this mean that Runner's Companion has leapfrogged Unwired? Where is Unwired, anyhoo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Moon-Hawk]

Go Obsidimen!

Ooh, good catch! I was distracted by the dragons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rasumichin]

This was actually posted today...well, i'll just roll with it.

It's nice to have BP costs for statting out prime runner NPCs, but besides that...

In a normal 400 BP campaign, i don't see how a dragon PC built under the preview's rules could be of much use, with only 75-100 points (or a max of 135, if the player chooses a feathered serpent or leviathan and goes for the full amount of handicaps) to distribute after paying the racial BP.
Good luck squeezing a viable build out of that...
The only possibility i see here is playing an utterly incompetent just-past-wyvern-stage young dragon for the sake of...i hardly dare saying it...RP.

In 600+ BP campaigns...well, who plays with > 600 BP?
Not anyone i know.

Nice for oneshots or miniseries, probably, but i never had the idea to try this.

However, i don't see where the presented rules would lead to dracoforms being overpowered.
In fact, they might pretty much suck without tons of karma.

Gonna be the new PC shapeshifters...



And, BTW, i second what Earlydawn has to say :
WHERE THE HECK IS UNWIRED???

[crizh]

Obsidimen!

Woooooohooooooooo!!!!!!!

[runs around in circles, arms raised high]

[Zolhex]

The last I think anyone said on unwired was it had been sent to final layout?

Dragons ok it can be worked with but to me the thing I liked was the mini blurb on Obsidimen.

[Magus]

Oh like HELL NO!! Oh jeez just what I need in my games. Obsidimen and Drakes/Dracoforms. I am a Canon/RAW kinda GM but this really pushes the envelope on my tolerance levels.

Forget it Casazil. You are not getting a Gene Treated BioWare loaded Dragon.

[Moon-Hawk]

I'm going to think "out loud" here, feel free to ignore me. I'm going to examine the Western Dragon:
Sooo, Body is large. Is it really worth the 110 BP for a +11 Body? No, because you're not going to be able to put standard worn armor such as armored jackets or anything on them, so their ability to resist incoming damage is 20 dice (including their hardened armor of 8 ) 8 is nice, but not OMFG broken. If I ignore the hardened-ness of the armor it's about like a Body 7 character wearing maximum armor, in terms of soaking dice rolled. I'll ballpark it as such, so for the moment I'll call this roughly 60BP worth of body. Sure, you can add magical armor on top of that, but so can anyone else.

Agility is a +3. That's cool. Of course, you don't have the spare BP to get it any higher than that, so while it's definitely worth the 30BP, you're ending up with a relatively moderate Agility.

Reaction of +4. Similar situation as Agility. It's sweet and worth every penny, but you simply don't have the BP to go much above that.

Strength. Wow. That's a lot of strength. Fortunately, strength is the crappiest attribute in the game (IMO) It's only really useful for melee damage (which is fixed at 10P and not strength dependent), thrown weapons and bows (ummmmm, no), and a little bonus recoil compensation (again, no). So they can lift a lot. Woo. A strength of 35 which can not be applied to damage or recoil is so close to worthless I'm just going to skip it's cost in my consideration. It's obviously worth something, but I'm being quick-n-dirty here.

Cha, Int, Log, Will, all 5's. Of course any magician would have the ones they need that high. It's well worth the +4x4=160 BP, though.

Magician is 15BP + 50BP worth of Magic.

Sensitive system is worth -15BP and you get something considerably worse.

So that's 340 BP with my fuzzy-math. And bear in mind that these attributes still aren't worth what they're "worth", since it's a package. You're being forced to pay for attributes which you otherwise might not, so that should devalue the whole package a little.

There's the neato summoning of all 10 spirit types. Of course, any GM who would consider letting you play a dragon would've let you design your own tradition, so you'd be getting the 5 you really wanted anyway. The other 5? A tasty little bonus, but this is a case where 10 does not equal 2x5.

You get a bonus IP. Cool, but I can't imagine normal IP-boosting drugs would work for you, so there goes the simplest way to boost IP and puts you even with the cheapest of cheapy-cheap guards in terms of initiative enhancement. You can still boost your initiative magically, but so can a mage, so there's no inherent bonus here, and you're still limited to 4IP total. Oh, and you can't get cyberware or adept powers. Meh.

+2 Reach is cool. It almost sort of makes up for your sub-standard agility (if you're talking about melee builds, 4 is substandard)

There's that bonus for people to hit you in ranged combat that somewhat devalues your Reaction. You barely have the BP to get the most basic of skills, contacts, gear (what little you can use, anyway). There's a lot of baggage and difficulty that comes with being a big fuck-off dragon.

I'm really not seeing this as being all that overpowered. And if you still don't like it, it's optional.

[Pyrius]

I would say the announcement came one day to late...

[ravensmuse]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that with the Obsidimen entry at the top of Page 1 gives it away. From what I remember, didn't they say that because Living Room Games had the license now for Earthdawn, didn't that prevent them from doing outrightly obvious Earthdawn > Shadowrun connections?

OTOH, is that a picture of Schwartzkopf teaching?

[Ryu]

"Playing an adult dragon"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Even if it was an April Fools joke, the supplied material is quite sufficient... if a player ever gets a spot for a dragon PC, the role of "snack provider" goes with it.

[hermit]

Either CGL is off their timing, or ... RC will contain really insane things.

I do believe this is april fool's, though.

[Moon-Hawk]

If everyone's just going to say "is good", "is bad", or "is a joke" we should just make a poll.
Does anyone have any actual reasoning to go with their knee-jerks?

edit: There are one or two people this comment was not directed at.

[Herald of Verjig...]

300 BP for a leviathan? This is the first thing that has given me any interest in SR4.

[Larme]

I hope they fix the typos before they publish it >.<

And I think an April Fools joke would lack the whole "optional rules, think VERY carefully before using" part.

That said, Dragons are like Shapeshifters - neat, but critically flawed in many ways. Dragons have much more potential for advancement than any other type of PC, but they also start off with very little in skills, gear, and spells, 100 BP worth at the most. Well 135 with negative qualities. They really don't have much in the way of limits, but it would take hundreds of karma to go from where they start out to where they max out. These are dragons after all, not great dragons. They are not, and never will be demi-god-like, they are just very powerful monsters.

Speaking of which, they are enormous monsters. They can't really do anything in their dragon form without starting a fuss. Even a basic Shadowrun in dragon form would get the HRT called. So dragons are pretty much forced to sustain a Shapechange spell at all times, which takes away the benefit of some their amazing attributes. And the rules don't say that dragons ignore the rules for Shapechange - you can only turn into forms with +- 2 body. So a Western Dragon with minimum body could only turn into a troll. If he raised his body to max, Shapechange couldn't possibly turn him into a metahuman.

[Ryu]

If everyone's just going to say "is good", "is bad", or "is a joke" we should just make a poll.
Does anyone have any actual reasoning to go with their knee-jerks?

edit: There are one or two people this comment was not directed at.

Its good because it has dragons in it. Its an extreme package, but rather balanced by the price. I would be hesitant to allow it because I could not accept someone casually playing a dragon. There would be a need of great role-playing, and of buying favour with the other players. And the whole campaign would need to be rather high-powered. But I have a great idea for a super-villain now... a smallish dragon they can handle.

[Stahlseele]

OTOH, is that a picture of Schwartzkopf teaching?

yep, from DOTSW(DOT6W) i think . . . but still, with how they've been reusing pictures of canon companion in arsenal, we can'T be sure if that is an indicator for a joke or not . .