[X] My Assistant

[Kremlin KOA]

Of course vegans can live out normal lifespans without eating meat. Wendigos can live out normal lifespans without eating people that they've corrupted into cannibalism. They still eat people, but they don't need to corrupt them into cannibals. That was the comparison. Kremlin KOA wasn't saying they don't eat people.

Precisely

Why do I have a sudden urge to go get some Soylent Green? Is Tuesday Soylent Green day? I need to check my calendar....

Over here, soylent green day is two days after an American tourist comes to our part of Australia and goes bush without proper supplies.

ah, okay, i was barking up the wrong tree so to say . . and over here, it's still sunday O.o

No Problemo
My thought was I can choose to live off a couple of cannibals a year who I did not create (places like redmond can be a breeding ground for some serious sickos). In addition, although less flavorful, many different food choices like rapists, toxic shamans, and pedophiles can be an acceptable food suppliment.

[swirler]

Think of how vegans live

Annoying and sickly?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

Yes, that quote does not say "toxic." What's your point? I note that Toxic traditions also don't have rules in the book that quote is from.

Dammit you made me hunt around my storage boxes
Ok SR1 p189 references most Wendigo as following a predatory totem such as wolf, but apparently SOME (not most, or all) follow as yet unidentified totems. This is one of the first hints of toxic totems, or of horror totems.

Wendigo are not nice people. They aren't even metahumans. They are a virus that absorbs the memories of creatures whose soul it devours through the medium of first eating their flesh. An act it generally performs after it uses its mind control powers to get its prospective victim to assist in killing and eating other metahumans. The totems which guide wendigo are totally crazy evil fucks by any metahuman standard. Every single one of them qualifies as a twisted path.

-Frank

Shadowrunners are not nice people. They aren't even citizens. They are a virus that absorbs the wealth of society whose soul it devours through the medium of enabling corporations to do secret harm. An act it generally performs after it uses its illegally acquired skills and webs of influence to acquire agreements from rogue elements in corporations to fund these diabolical schemes. The 'fixers' which guide shadowrunners are totally crazy evil fucks by any decent citizen's standard. Every single one of them qualifies as a twisted monster.

Do you understand yet?

Let me make it simple. I, as a human being, have no real life qualms with the idea of a being who gets a disease. Furthermore, I have no problems if this disease requires him to consume human flesh and souls. The above two sentances are contingent on the person choosing to satisfy his new necessity by feeding on the sickest fuckers he can find.

The fact that I have no problems sharing a house with such a guy in real life means that, by at least some human standards, his way of life can be acceptable.

Annoying and sickly?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

That too, but i meant living on less than ideal food

[FrankTrollman]

The thing is that it's not some guy who gets a disease and is tragically forced to wander the lands eating the bodies and souls of people and then trying to figure out how to make the best of a bad lot. The ork in question is dead. The new creature is no more the ork in question than a fleshform ant spirit would be. It's a new creature with powerful magic and knowledge that the template ork never had. And this new creature likes corrupting innocent people into murder and cannibalism and it likes betraying its minions and then torturing them to death once they have fallen. By any human standard, a wendigo is an evil fucker. It's not misunderstood, it's not tragic, it's not sick, it's fucking evil. And it likes being evil.

If you meet a wendigo who is trying to better society and right wrongs while still being forced by its nature to do depraved acts and so on and so forth in all its emo glory, that is a creature which is sick. That's a creature which like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is confused by the memories it has absorbed and is temporarily trying to be something it is not - a metahuman with a conscience and a sense of community with other metahumans. When you see that, you are seeing a delusional Wendigo - one which believes itself to actually be some dead ork rather than what it actually is: a soul stealing virus which had already gleefully murdered the ork it transiently believes itself to be.

---

Wendigo are often quite intelligent and they are brutally powerful. You can work with them on those grounds despite the fact that they evil and naturally treacherous. You can work with ant mages too. Hell, you'd be better off working with ant mages because ant mages are purely motivated by power and growth, rather than gaining sexual gratification from betraying their allies and then torturing them to death by eating them alive. Last I checked, Lofwyr keeps a wendigo (used to be defined as a toxic shaman, now could go either way: toxic or twisted) on staff because the guy is such a badass that Lofwyr is willing to accept the guy eating the occasional employee. Damien Knight keeps Ant Magicians on staff as well, and to the best of my knowledge those guys actually don't eat any of Damien's other employees.

And from the stand point of a completely amoral shadowrunner, working with a wendigo is on the short list of extremely bad ideas. The guy literally betrays and murders team mates as part of his fucking mating dance. Working with one is worse for your health than anything else.

---

Now the other infected, those guys are horrible abominations too. But they are naturally inclined to prey upon strangers rather than allies. That makes working with them a much more attractive proposition. A Banshee is totally hard core and it periodically kills and eats its enemies. If you're a soldier or a gangster or something, it's basically just like having a Gurkha or an Angama on your team - yeah what he does is considered a crime against humanity, but he's doing it to the other guys so you can probably rationalize that away.

If I was running a mercenary company in Congo, I'd take on a Banshee in a New York Minute. The fact that he feasts on the souls of the fallen is of way less concern to me than the fact that he can take a full burst from a machine gun to the stomach and be back up in seconds without even needing to be looked at by a medic and that damnit he kills a lot of enemies. It's morally problematic, but it's the kind of thing that makes sense in a Machiavellian fashion. But Wendigo will in fact cause my troops to eat each other and then eat my troops. Bringing a wendigo on team would be a very very hard sell.

-Frank

[Grinder]

Annoying and sickly?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Not at all.

[Adarael]

The confusion is solely on your part here.
SR vamp needed always blood. A token amount, just like noted in Essence Drain. But in SR4 in addition to that they need blood as food. That is a Dietry Requirement. And that's what I think is kind of... not neccessary.

If it pisses you off that much that they have a 'dietary requirement' for exactly the same amount of blood they'd always needed to facilitate essence drain - that is to say 'a token amount' - then I think you're perfectly within your rights to simply ignore the line. The fact of the matter is that they drink just as much blood now as then, but it's been clarified rules-wise that they do, in fact, have to drink blood. Without the dietary requirement line, the amount they have to drink (re: 'token') was somewhat confusing. I had a player tell me that as long as a vampire just licked a spot of blood they could drain all the essence they wanted.

And I know that I won't find anything to solidify my claims on WoD vamps, since I am way to lazy to reread those books for a single passage. But I think the Pro/Epilogue of V:tR mentions exactly what I said about them beeing bloodless corpses. Pale and cold to the touch unless they want to appear normal, because no blood runs through their veins. But hell, who cares? This is not the WoD forums. Just one final thing. Vitae is not blood. Feed a guy blood and he will get sick at best. Feed the same guy vitae and he will become quite strong and resilient. WoD Vampires drink blood and turn it to vitae in the process. It does not course through their veins, unless they force it to (losing it for any other use in the process) to fake a lifelike appearence.

If you're not gonna bother to try and support your arguments, you shouldn't make outlandish claims. Dead and cold to the touch =/= rotting. I'm also not gonna argue this any further because you obviously don't feel like checking for facts to support your POV. So we can agree to think different things.

[Malicant]

If it pisses you off that much that they have a 'dietary requirement' for exactly the same amount of blood they'd always needed to facilitate essence drain - that is to say 'a token amount' - then I think you're perfectly within your rights to simply ignore the line. The fact of the matter is that they drink just as much blood now as then, but it's been clarified rules-wise that they do, in fact, have to drink blood. Without the dietary requirement line, the amount they have to drink (re: 'token') was somewhat confusing. I had a player tell me that as long as a vampire just licked a spot of blood they could drain all the essence they wanted.

Are you purposefully dense? The dietry requirement forces them to consume blood not only while draining essence, but to survive. They actually need blood. To survive. On top of the need of blood to transfer essence. Is anyone reading the BBB nowadays before spouting opinions?

The thing is that it's not some guy who gets a disease and is tragically forced to wander the lands eating the bodies and souls of people and then trying to figure out how to make the best of a bad lot. The ork in question is dead. The new creature is no more the ork in question than a fleshform ant spirit would be. It's a new creature with powerful magic and knowledge that the template ork never had. And this new creature likes corrupting innocent people into murder and cannibalism and it likes betraying its minions and then torturing them to death once they have fallen. By any human standard, a wendigo is an evil fucker. It's not misunderstood, it's not tragic, it's not sick, it's fucking evil. And it likes being evil.

Would you please stop with this theory of yours? It's fine if you use it to comfort yourself, but it is not supportet by anything I have read about vampires or other Infected in SR. And I have read anything I could get my greasy hands on. A virus is not an organism that takes over it's host like a puppeteer. HMHVV is a virus that fucks with the metagenes, not some alien invader from outer space. This is SR, not Body Snatchers. Also, this is not D&D, where vamps eat people because they are evil. In SR vamps are evil because they eat people. Huge difference.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Not at all.

I bet Tony Gonzalez (NFL player and vegan) or one of those vegan triathletes would agree. Although triathletes are a bit annoying sometimes in the way they seem to always talk about nothing but triathlons. Yes, I get it, you ran, you swam, you biked.

[Particle_Beam]

Damien Knight keeps Ant Magicians on staff as well, and to the best of my knowledge those guys actually don't eat any of Damien's other employees.

Is that true, or is FrankTrollman just going overboard? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

Would you please stop with this theory of yours? It's fine if you use it to comfort yourself, but it is not supportet by anything I have read about vampires or other Infected in SR. And I have read anything I could get my greasy hands on. A virus is not an organism that takes over it's host like a puppeteer. HMHVV is a virus that fucks with the metagenes, not some alien invader from outer space. This is SR, not Body Snatchers. Also, this is not D&D, where vamps eat people because they are evil. In SR vamps are evil because they eat people. Huge difference.

I believe he is using the theories put forth by Martin De Vries. The famous SR vampire hunter.

That is the only book support for his interpretation. The Irony is that Martin De Vries is a fragging Vampire himself. As such, if he was right, he would not be hunting Vampires.

[WearzManySkins]

Are you purposefully dense? The dietry requirement forces them to consume blood not only while draining essence, but to survive. They actually need blood. To survive. On top of the need of blood to transfer essence. Is anyone reading the BBB nowadays before spouting opinions?

Would you please stop with this theory of yours? It's fine if you use it to comfort yourself, but it is not supportet by anything I have read about vampires or other Infected in SR. And I have read anything I could get my greasy hands on. A virus is not an organism that takes over it's host like a puppeteer. HMHVV is a virus that fucks with the metagenes, not some alien invader from outer space. This is SR, not Body Snatchers. Also, this is not D&D, where vamps eat people because they are evil. In SR vamps are evil because they eat people. Huge difference.

Be aware that Frank has "insights" into SR4 things that the rest of us do not.

But he like the rest of us is free to express his opinions/ideas/concepts here too.

WMS

[Jaid]

Is that true, or is FrankTrollman just going overboard? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

no idea about the wendigo, but ares does have a bunch of insect spirits/shaman. i don't know that damien knight *personally* has any of them reporting to him, but it's a pretty sure thing he knows and approves of the fact that Ares has a number of insect shaman (and naturally insect spirits to go with them), and that he could have one on his personal staff if he wanted to quite easily.

[WearzManySkins]

You may wish to look at NAGEE #9 has some interesting views on Vampires, yes it is SR3 but still interesting ideas.

WMS

[Adarael]

Are you purposefully dense? The dietry requirement forces them to consume blood not only while draining essence, but to survive. They actually need blood. To survive. On top of the need of blood to transfer essence. Is anyone reading the BBB nowadays before spouting opinions?

It is no longer productive to try and discuss this with you. I am going to accept that I cannot understand why you are upset that in 4th edition they have to drink blood to survive or they will sicken and die from a dietary requirement ALONG with sickening and dying from essence loss, as opposed to in 3rd edition where they would sicken and die without drinking blood because they couldn't drain essence without doing so.

I know the rules quite well, thank you.

[FrankTrollman]

Would you please stop with this theory of yours?

No. It's what the rules actually say. The basic book says that a character "cannot survive" being Essence Drained to zero. It says that a creature taken by the Infection power is a "newly created critter." If you are an Ork and you are Essence Drained to zero by a critter with Infection, then by the rules you die and then a new critter is created out of your body. That's the actual fucking rules on pages 62, 288, and 289. Do not pass go, do not collect 200¥.

This is also known in character. Martin DeVries is a vampire and realized that he personally was no longer "Martin DeVries" but rather an entirely new and somewhat evil monster instead. As a sapient creature he subsequently decided to take on the other vampires in open conflict. But that doesn't make him a nice person, nor does it make him the human whose memories he has. He has published his findings and the Vampire =/= You rubric is as well known to the public as the Flesh Form Mantis =/= You paradigm is.

You are welcome to play a Vampire. It's a sapient creature with hands that can pass for a metahuman with no direct sunlight around. But you can't keep playing a human character who gets infected with vampirism - because the character you were playing is dead and now there is a new sapient creature running off with his body.

-Frank

[nathanross]

You are welcome to play a Vampire. It's a sapient creature with hands that can pass for a metahuman with no direct sunlight around. But you can't keep playing a human character who gets infected with vampirism - because the character you were playing is dead and now there is a new sapient creature running off with his body.

Unless the GM allows you to play the new creature (that has access to your memories, and may internalize them).

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah thats fine, but in SR metaphysics character A died when his essence hit zero and it was not part of a cybermantic ritual.

Having your essence score -> 0 means you are dead (unless you are now a cyberzombie, which is a very specific way not to become dead). When your corpse gets up and walks around again, it is now a new entity that has certain elements in common with you, like all your memories.

But *you* died.

[Fuchs]

The Wendigo (a female, if I recall correctly) in S-K's employ shows up posing as an albino Sasquatch in a novel I believe, and passes her ability to talk off as having an implanted voice modulator. I don't recall which novel though.

[Stahlseele]

it is one of the three in the power trilogy, but i ain't sure which one at the moment . .
other question, cybermancy being mentioned . . does one HAVE to have cyber in his body? and if so, does one have to die from essence-loss of CYBER-ware to become a cyber-zombie? else: what would happen, if a cybermancer-magician-vampire sucked somebody dry and then cast cybermancy upon him? would the now empty human become a new vampire or get changed into a cyberzombie?

[Cthulhudreams]

It seems that the surgery and the ritual have to be performed concurrently, and essence drain would seem to screw the pooch.

[Wanderer]

No. It's what the rules actually say. The basic book says that a character "cannot survive" being Essence Drained to zero. It says that a creature taken by the Infection power is a "newly created critter." If you are an Ork and you are Essence Drained to zero by a critter with Infection, then by the rules you die and then a new critter is created out of your body. That's the actual fucking rules on pages 62, 288, and 289. Do not pass go, do not collect 200¥.

This is also known in character. Martin DeVries is a vampire and realized that he personally was no longer "Martin DeVries" but rather an entirely new and somewhat evil monster instead. As a sapient creature he subsequently decided to take on the other vampires in open conflict. But that doesn't make him a nice person, nor does it make him the human whose memories he has. He has published his findings and the Vampire =/= You rubric is as well known to the public as the Flesh Form Mantis =/= You paradigm is.

You are welcome to play a Vampire. It's a sapient creature with hands that can pass for a metahuman with no direct sunlight around. But you can't keep playing a human character who gets infected with vampirism - because the character you were playing is dead and now there is a new sapient creature running off with his body.

-Frank

The huge glaring problem with this theory, which frankly is laughable IMO, is that runs in the face of some basic facts about biology and identity. Fact one, virii aren't sentient. Metahumans are. Fact two, to all purposes that matter, (meta)humans are the sum of their memories and personality. If something has my memories and my personality, and thinks it's me, then it's me. That is why there can never be a brain transplant, only a body transplant. The person moves with the consciousness. Even radical changes to the body cannot change this. In SR4, this is exemplified by cyberzombies and cyborgs. As things go, HMHVV only brings moderate changes in comparison, some innate magical powers and activation of the magus factor, which are essentially analogous to becoming a changeling and Awakening to be a mystic adept. The fact this change comes with some new instincts and cravings does not make one a different individual, not any more than developing an addiction makes one an alien. That's all HMHVV does. It works a process quite analogous to the cyberzombie ritual, (as a matter of fact, my long-standing pet theory about the origin of HMHVV is that it is a partially successful magical-genetic experiment to replicate the effects of the cyberzombie ritual and make it automatic at infection, back then in the Fourth World, eg. from the Therans or the Blood Elves. It almost worked, giving the host immortality, resiliency, various magical powers, but it is flawed as it makes the patteren instable, it leaks Essence, and it requires periodic infusions from donors. Luckily for the host, it also provides the abilities to arrange for the Essence transfer). When the subject hits Essence 0, the virus puts the body in animated suspension, a death-like coma, keeps the spirit linked, and reworks the genome of the subject, until it awakens in a new form. But it's still the same person, with the same memories and basic personality. The virus only adds a craving for the new food, Essence, and the related hunting instinct, but to assume this makes one a monster from outer space is ludicrous. One might as well declare that heroin addicts are body snatchers.

Sincerely, in order to explain to explain the biology of the Infected, there is no need to take as fact the ridiculous self-loathing delusions of Martin DeVries, who could not reconcile himself with his new cravings, and concocted this obvious delusion about him not being him, but an alien double, to appease the inner conflict. They are "new critters" just the same way that newly Goblinized orks, trolls, and changelings, are: i.e. not at all. They are the same persons, with a somewhat changed body, from the expression of a pack of Awakened genes. The wording of the BBB is simply to mean that (until RC is published, when it will become just the matter of paying the appropriate Xp, likely to buy a Quality) PCs were forbidden to mess with game balance from getting a bunch of new nifty powers from getting Infected with HMHVV. Just that.

Flesh Forms are wholly different, they are pre-existing consciousness and sentient entity which subsumes the memories of the host. HMHVV is a string of RNA which resonates with the Astral plane, gets transcribed and inserted in the host's DNA, and gives it some new perks and weaknesses, and a couple new cravings and instincts. There is no pre-existing consciousness or subsumption. A couple new addictions and phobias, that's all HMHVV creates at the psychic level, and it's ridicolous to assume that such makes a Body Snatcher.

[Cthulhudreams]

The problem with saying 'virii arn;t sentient' should be obvious on first principles. We don't have magical viruses running around either. Also, I'd dispute people have a soul if you want to discuss metaphysics, but in 2070 there is undeniable proof that they have one. Its health is both measurable and quantifiable too. With discreet units. When your essence is sucked out your actual soul is consumed.

While I agree today that if you take me, add some random powers and keep the same memory and personality, that is me. However, in 2070 it is not me, as my soul (measured by essence) has gone, and something else has replaced it. I am dead.

Also, the game clearly states that when you die when your essence reaches zero. Several times.

Applying real world metaphysics like you are is not a good move when the metaphysical system under discussion actually has measurable and quantifiable 'facts' forming its foundation.

[Grinder]

I bet Tony Gonzalez (NFL player and vegan) or one of those vegan triathletes would agree. Although triathletes are a bit annoying sometimes in the way they seem to always talk about nothing but triathlons. Yes, I get it, you ran, you swam, you biked.

Every dedicated sportsman can get annoying at some point. But so can role players, musicians or car drivers too.

[Malicant]

It is no longer productive to try and discuss this with you. I am going to accept that I cannot understand why you are upset that in 4th edition they have to drink blood to survive or they will sicken and die from a dietary requirement ALONG with sickening and dying from essence loss, as opposed to in 3rd edition where they would sicken and die without drinking blood because they couldn't drain essence without doing so.

I know the rules quite well, thank you.

My problem is, what you still ignore, is the fact that vampires now have to consume blood outside of the Essence Drain procedure. They need to drain every few months, but the need blood as regular food. Like daily.

Bah, whatever.

Back to the virus stuff. Martin deVries is a nutjob. If he actually thinks he is not Martin deVries, that is most likely simple alienation. A mental disorder, not proof for his ridiculous theory.

Ok, a drained person dies (almost). HMHVV brings them back, but that does not mean the person is now the Virus. The creature has the same body, memories, which make it for all purposes the same person. Now just add the experience of near-death with, and I qoute, "physical, mental and siritual transformation" and any change of personality can be explained without going into nutjob-country. The Virus transforms, it does not take over the reigns.

So, the newly created critter is still controlled by the same person, not by the Virus.

Also, this is not D&D. The Infection Power description does not effect all Infected equally, the wording cannot be exactly used to describe every possible outcome of the infection. Like Vamps seem to retain their personality and can restrain themselfs, but Wendigos turn into canibalistic cult leaders (sometimes) and Dzoo-Noo-Whatever turn retarded.

This Virus theory sounds more like "I found a badly worded passage, now I will twist it a lot and make fun of it as much as I can".

We don't have magical viruses running around either. Also, I'd dispute people have a soul if you want to discuss metaphysics, but in 2070 there is undeniable proof that they have one

Actually, there is no such proof. The debates are raging. Astral Projection is proof that the conciousness can be seperated from the body, but there is no actual proof of an afterlife or souls. Just hints like the ex-bloodspirit gal in the Dragonheart Trilogy.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sure, but its not actually near death. The book leaves no wiggle room on this matter. You are dead.

And it's not a badly worded passage, it is multiple passages that repeatedly reference the fact you die. Your soul is completely smashed by the process of essence drain. What comes afterwards is something else, and while it has much in common with you, it is certainly not you.

Edit: SR metaphysics

You have a soul. It is your essence score. It can actually be scientifically measured and has units and everything. It is exactly as real as tables, chairs and coffee mugs.

When a vampire essence drains you, and your essence score hits zero, you are dead. Do not pass go, do not collect 200yens. You have passed over. The only known process that stops this is a very complicated magically ritual that binds your soul to your body. This does not happen in this case.

After a vampire has killed you a new creature with a new essence pool (and thus a new soul!) inhabits the emptied vessel. The resultant magically created creature *does not* have your soul, your essence of being, it has a new one. It has a new essence pool it is a new entity, like the product of a fleshform merge. It is another creature entirely. This is specifically reference by the books too.