[X] My Assistant

[Cthulhudreams]

@Malicant: Argh. I am aware exceptions are possible. However, the rules in page 62 spend a considerable amount of time elimating the possibility of an exception in those pages. You haven't supplied a good reason as to why they would invest time in elimating exceptions and then publish an exception in the very space that they said can contain no exceptions. Unless they are lying to screw with us in which case you may as well make the rulebooks into paper planes and throw them around. It also explains the matrix rules and technomancers.

Secondly, I was being sarcastic as a result of your condescension towards me before - near death does not commonly mean what I could tell you obviously thought it meant except in a specific technical context, and that context actually runs contrary to the commonly accepted meaning. So I was having a shot at you lording it over me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway, please note that I think clinically dying and having your life force snuffed out (What you are now saying happens) out probably means that you are a zombie or somefink (ie not you) when you get back up again.

@Fortune: Why do you think that the rule on page 62 provides emphasis on the never and mentions not in the basic rules if it is going to include an exception in the basic rules? I guess 'because the writers are retarded monkeys' and 'crappy editing' are valid answers that I cannot reasonably refute, but if we assume that they actually meant to write 'never' in italics and preclude exceptions in the basic book, I don;t have a good reason.

[Fortune]

Text moved!

[Critias]

Dude! When was I condescending towards you? When was I lording it over you? Please give me a quote or two.

There you go again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Pfft (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . Sorry, that line was directed at Malicant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malicant]

2: one that is excepted; especially : a case to which a rule does not apply

Rules cannot eliminate the possiblity of an exception, that the whole point of exceptions. Also, considerable time is more than one sentance.

Neat and clean, Infection works without killing the character, but under basic rules you still cannot play someone whos Essence has been reduced to 0 at some time.

Cthulhudreams, I have a little more Google-Fu for you, since you don't seem to understand the term clinically dead.

Google Fu!

[Cthulhudreams]

I have to say, that the 'essence drain kills you and a magical virus reanimates your body with eeeevvviillll magic' is neat, clean, and doesn't require going against any of the rules. And frankly eeevvvviiillll magic is cooler too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the substance, well, its not that you cannot play a character, its that they are all dead, and if AH bleats about word count 10 words of concious editing and type setting is more time than vital game concepts such as 'how do you default without a program' gets.

As for clinical death, yada yada I know. In this particular case however your life force is sucked out entirely by an evil being at the same time as your heart stops beating. This does put a different spin on events.

[Malicant]

Essence Drain does not reanimate you. That's what Infection does, after it transformed you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fortune]

Why do you think that the rule on page 62 provides emphasis on the never and mentions not in the basic rules if it is going to include an exception in the basic rules?

The text on page 62 is discussing the general concepts of the game itself as it relates to normal game play. The text on page 294 discusses HMHVV, which is an exception to the normal rules, but is not relevant to normal game play under the basic rules, as there are no rules for vampire PCs as of yet, and the other exception of cybermancy is not mentioned until Augmentation.

[Tobias]

Not going to get into the virus/you argument however:

Can a vampire essence drain an astrally projecting mages body? If so what happens to his astral 'self'

[Critias]

Can a vampire essence drain an astrally projecting mages body? If so what happens to his astral 'self'

I imagine, using the official scientific term, the end result is "the mage gets boned." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Malicant]

Not going to get into the virus/you argument however:

Can a vampire essence drain an astrally projecting mages body? If so what happens to his astral 'self'

Nuh, Drain needs strong emotions towards the drainer, so this one would be just sucking blood.

But back on topic. Note that Infection does not work on dead people, or people whos Essence was zeroes by implants. It need someone drained to 0 to work.

[Cthulhudreams]

The text on page 62 is discussing the general concepts of the game itself as it relates to normal game play. The text on page 294 discusses HMHVV, which is an exception to the normal rules, but is not relevant to normal game play under the basic rules, as there are no rules for vampire PCs as of yet, and the other exception of cybermancy is not mentioned until Augmentation.

(Un)fortunately (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I'm not sure that is a refutable argument. There is no 'this book' section or similar that I can see that would allow one to decide if the 'critter powers' are, or are not, part of the basic rules.

I do feel that the entire contents of Shadowrun - 4th edition 26000 are the basic rules though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@Malicant: I've edited to reflect that it is the virus that reanimates the vessel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malicant]

Okay, more hairsplitting then. Page 62 talks about characters, but vamps are critters. Also, Infection talks about creatures, victims and critters, not characters, until the moment where it mentiones that...

Player characters transformed through the Infection power automatically become NPCs upon their 'death' and are controlled by the gamemaster from that point forward

Squeaky clean exception. Even mentions 'death' not death. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

creatures, victums and critters are all part of a subset of NPC, which is a subset of characters. Then we are back to the no exclusion rule.

To hairsplit the split hair, it might be using 'death' because the dead guy is now reanimated by eeeevvvviiiilllll magic and is walking around, talking and smoking cigars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway, I've pmed synner because we have two valid supportable positions and are arguing in circles.

We'll see whats happened.

[Malicant]

creatures, victums and critters are all part of a subset of NPC, which is a subset of characters. Then we are back to the no exclusion rule.

Now, now, if you go that way, I say the critter chapter is not basic rules.

creature

victim

critter

As you can see, none of them are defined as a subset of NPC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seriously, you just tried to switch to 'intent'. The intent of page 62 unfortunatly is, that PCs can't have an Essence of 0 or less and continue play without supplemental and/or optional rules.

[Cthulhudreams]

Pfft, linking me to the webster defination is useless as almost all the SR4 skills are explicitly stated as determining interactions with 'NPCs' and attribute scores are defined for 'NPCs'

Unless you are seriously proposing that you cannot use any skills in the influence group in a social encounter with a vampire. Which, if they are not NPCs, you cannot.

Still going around in circles here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malicant]

They are only NPCs when you interact with them. As long as you don't they don't even exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Yes, we are going in circles. For quite some time now. And will go on, and on, and on.

[Cthulhudreams]

It's like quantum. You only collapse the... characterform.. by observation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malicant]

Doesn't change the outcome, really.

[Wanderer]

I'd go with the WIMF-Rule (what is more fun). Vampires being merely humans infected by a virus with some dietary requirement and magic powers is, IMHO, not as fun as vampires being animated corpses, undead beings who die at dawn and rise at dusk. Vampires being sentient viruses that inhabit corpses and believe to be simply infected humans is closer to the later.

In actual play, this could be handled by "don't ask, don't tell" - you could play entire campaigns, struggling with the nature of your character ic, without your GM ever deciding what exactly your character was, infected human or undead monster, the line is that blurry between the two views in game.

Actually, I'm honestly persuaded that infected humans fits better with the way science and magic work by themselves and together in SR, and it builds on the solid foundation metagenes and goblinization have built for similar person-changing effects. But I'm willing to work even with the "animated corpses raised by magic" (even if I've to state that even when this kind of explanation is used, undead are assumed to slip into a death-like sleep during day, die and resurrect every day is just too goofy), a la Crow, as long as it is understood that it is the original person's consciousness, mind, soul, spirit, ba, ka, call it as you like, that animates and self-directs the corpse.

It most emphatically must not be a shambling mass of virus, a possessing spirit, or whatever, that consciously dupes the world in mimicking the dead human, it's stupid, goofy, and totally destroys any interest such a character concept may have either as PC or NPC. Master shedim are already available as an explicit option to cover that angle.

I honestly think the sentient virus idea is too farfetched, where the virus is supposed to record and carry the massive amount of information it requires to have a consciousness, a virus is a material object, not a spirit, so it's subject to scientific constraints, and I do not believe the self-delusion angle is workable (besides the loathsome fact it obliges you to play a self-deluding pathetic loon, I do not want my Infected PCs or NPCs to be reverse DeVrieses, thank you), since as I said before, it's a self-contradiction, you are your memories and personality, so if there is a corpse magically-animated that has your memories and personality, and thinks it's you, then to all kinds and purposes, it's you, the conditions of the body matter not at all, and the existence of the soul/spirit matter not, except insofar it means there are two copies of the same individual, one talking and walking the earth as a vampire/wendigo, the other in some afterlife Metaplane doing soul business, much like two clones that have the same memories. They may eventually diverge into separate individuals from different experience, but practically it matters not, since the afterlife in SR, if it indeed exists, is cut off from from any proven and reliable contact, so to all purposes the only version of the individual that matters for play is the one walking the Earth.

[Fuchs]

Vampires being a sort of Shedim (based upon the original human being) or a sort of "natural" cyberzombies seem to me to fit SR's system much better than some "it's just a gene-altering illness" concept.

[quentra]

Honestly, I'm really for the sentient virus theory. Because otherwise, I'd see most Infected committing suicide as soon as they realize they're vamps. Take Joe Average, for example. He's a general wageslave, turns down the wrong alleyway, and bam, gets drained by a vamp who uses infection on him. If Joe Wageslave is indeed still the same person, (and assuming he's not a morally bankrupt criminal for hire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), he might feel a bit...odd at being turned into a bloodsucking fiend of the night. Because he would still be the same person. His moral compass (such as it is in the Sixth World) would still remain. However, if he died and was reanimated by evil creepy sentient awakened virus powerz, then his total sudden disregard for metahuman life make sense.

[Malicant]

Well, since orks, elves, etc are all explained by genetics, and the ability to be a mage is genetic, too, a gene altering virus might actually make more sense than a shedim virus, that does not provide any benefit to the cause of the shedim.

[Malicant]

Honestly, I'm really for the sentient virus theory. Because otherwise, I'd see most Infected committing suicide as soon as they realize they're vamps. Take Joe Average, for example. He's a general wageslave, turns down the wrong alleyway, and bam, gets drained by a vamp who uses infection on him. If Joe Wageslave is indeed still the same person, (and assuming he's not a morally bankrupt criminal for hire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), he might feel a bit...odd at being turned into a bloodsucking fiend of the night. Because he would still be the same person. His moral compass (such as it is in the Sixth World) would still remain. However, if he died and was reanimated by evil creepy sentient awakened virus powerz, then his total sudden disregard for metahuman life make sense.

Your argument is sound, until we actually look into Infection, that transforms the victim "physically, mentally and spiritually". The more problems the original person would have had with draining people in dark alleys, the more the new critter will differ from him.

But he still will not be a virus. Just the same person, changed.

[quentra]

Well, since orks, elves, etc are all explained by genetics, and the ability to be a mage is genetic, too, a gene altering virus might actually make more sense than a shedim virus, that does not provide any benefit to the cause of the shedim.

Metatypes aren't explained by genetics, not are mages. At least, not fully. Those are all 'mana active genes', genes that only activate when a certain universal mana level is reached. Otherwise, we would have orks, trolls, elves etc walking around modern day life. SR isn't a scientific game. So sure, the gene altering virus works, but the virus isn't only gene-altering, its Awakened. Maybe it alters the genome of the host enough to be able to sustain itself after the original person's soul (his essense) is drained. However, there's a different soul in the host creature now, making a totally different being than the original.