[X] My Assistant

[quentra]

Your argument is sound, until we actually look into Infection, that transforms the victim "physically, mentally and spiritually". The more problems the original person would have had with draining people in dark alleys, the more the new critter will differ from him.

But he still will not be a virus. Just the same person, changed.

If you think about, he works exactly like a virus, ie has the ability to multiply yet not adhearing to the basic prinicples of life. And if a person is changed so dramatically in all those ways, is he the same person? He's not just changed. Its not a different paradigm on life. Joe Wageslave no longer exists. Joe Vampire, however, does.

EDIT: Eep, my first double post!

[Fuchs]

Going from Wanderer's stance that if consciousness and memories are the same, it's the same being, then one could say that with such deep spiritual and mental changes, it's not the same being anymore.

[Critias]

Because otherwise, I'd see most Infected committing suicide as soon as they realize they're vamps. Take Joe Average, for example. He's a general wageslave, turns down the wrong alleyway, and bam, gets drained by a vamp who uses infection on him. If Joe Wageslave is indeed still the same person, (and assuming he's not a morally bankrupt criminal for hire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), he might feel a bit...odd at being turned into a bloodsucking fiend of the night.

What about Ghouls, then?

[quentra]

Its another strain of HMHVV, right? Still Infected, just a different flavor. I personally don't play ghouls in my games anything more than mindless monsters.

[Critias]

Yes, it is still the HMVV. So why is it they're allowed to become mindless ravenous creatures who feast on the flesh of the deceased (or not quite deceased yet), when that strain is actually known for making you change less, making you into less of a wildly divergent supernatural beast than the versions that handle vampirism, etc?

I can see a good potion of the recently Infected offing themselves, sure, maybe. Even if you were to house rule it so that no mental/spiritual change takes place, a great many people couldn't live with themselves (even if finding Essence volunteers for themselves, the way many vampires do)... but I think you're overestimating Joe Wageslave and the strength of his moral compass a little bit.

A great many people in the world today would leap at the chance to be immortal in exchange for hurting strangers routinely (nevermind all the other benefits that come with the virus aside from the lack of aging) -- in The Sixth World, where there are even more teeming masses of worthless lives no one cares about, and so much else plagues humanity at every turn (making it even easier to rationalize to yourself that they were gonna die eventually, anyways), I imagine even more people would be just fine with it.

[FrankTrollman]

Why should I? I'm not argueing that you can survive 0 Essence. You know, Infection contradicts your idea just fine, I don't think I need to find more proof than that.

What the hell? Malicant, this is the last time I will respond to you on this or any topic, because talking with you is frustrating and pointless. I asked you to find a rule to support your rules based position, and not only did you refuse, you physically can't.

Uh. Aha. You do know what near-death means, yes? Well, I guess not. Whatever. Google it.

YES! I Know what near-death means. I'm an ambulance technician. I worked in hospice care. I'm in medical school. Near Death means literally that, that you are extremely close to being completely dead. It does not mean that you automagically recover. People who are near death actually die every day. In fact, most people who are near-death, die. We make such a big deal out of the people who come near to death and then pull through because they are unusual.

Seriously, all you have in this argument is a tragically optimistic personal definition of a word which has nothing whatever to do with the word's actual meaning. Well, that and the presuppositions that you bring to the table from how vampires work in other games or how you think the self and the soul work in the real world, which are both complete non sequiturs in this discussion.

The rules are that you spend 24 hours in "near-death," and that you die, and that a "new critter is created." You can go ahead and think that everyone in "near-death" survives, but this is offensively not the case and if you've ever treated the actual sick and dying you will come to the realization immediately of what a complete insensitive tool you are being.

You don't live when a vampire drains your Essence. A new critter may or may not come into existence, but "you" cannot survive this process. And if you (like me) have a more Lockeian view of the Self such that continuity of experience necessitates continuity of self, all that means is that vampires in your world have to have a discontinuous experience - the extra knowledge and opinions added by the virus must be that much more intrusive, the absorption of the host's old memories that much more incomplete. Because however the Self is defined in your world, the newly created vampire is defined as not having it left over from the human that just got brutally tortured to death over two days.

-Frank

[Fuchs]

I would say that the sentence "newly created critter" (SR4 p. 289) indicates that the vampire is not the same being as the infected human.

However, the wording on the same page 'player characters transformed through the Infection power automatically become NPCs upon their "death" and are ontrolled by the gamemaster' might go both ways - it could mean they do niot really die, as in survive and are simply transformed, or that they die, but they revive as a new critter, and therefore it's not a final "death" from the POV of the new critter.

[Kremlin KOA]

Vampires being a sort of Shedim (based upon the original human being) or a sort of "natural" cyberzombies seem to me to fit SR's system much better than some "it's just a gene-altering illness" concept.

Natural cyberzombies would mean the original soul is in there and in charge

[Kremlin KOA]

I have to say, that the 'essence drain kills you and a magical virus reanimates your body with eeeevvviillll magic' is neat, clean, and doesn't require going against any of the rules. And frankly eeevvvviiillll magic is cooler too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the substance, well, its not that you cannot play a character, its that they are all dead, and if AH bleats about word count 10 words of concious editing and type setting is more time than vital game concepts such as 'how do you default without a program' gets.

As for clinical death, yada yada I know. In this particular case however your life force is sucked out entirely by an evil being at the same time as your heart stops beating. This does put a different spin on events.

Essence =/= soul
essence == the thing that keeps your soul there
if otherwise was true, cyberzombies would not exist

[Kremlin KOA]

What the hell? Malicant, this is the last time I will respond to you on this or any topic, because talking with you is frustrating and pointless. I asked you to find a rule to support your rules based position, and not only did you refuse, you physically can't.

-Frank

try this rule, from the essence loss section

"If a creature is reduced to 0 Essence, it will die in (Body + Willpower) days if it does not replenish itself. A creature in this state is extremely dangerous—a starved predator that hunts for fresh Essence with mindless ferocity."

yes, these things can l;ive for DAYS at 0 essence.

ALso if the original does not survive, Jetblack never existed

[swirler]

try this rule, from the essence loss section

"If a creature is reduced to 0 Essence, it will die in (Body + Willpower) days if it does not replenish itself. A creature in this state is extremely dangerous—a starved predator that hunts for fresh Essence with mindless ferocity."

yes, these things can l;ive for DAYS at 0 essence.

ALso if the original does not survive, Jetblack never existed

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the rule apply to essence drainers like vamps? Idf so it doesn't apply to metahumans. Atleast not until they have died and came back as "a new critter"

as far as Jetblack, I think the argument is, the "new critter" has access to the metas feelings and abilities. They might even think they are the same person. Think of it like implanted memories and skillsofts.

[nathanross]

ALso if the original does not survive, Jetblack never existed

Well, that doesn't really matter since the runners killed him anyways to get the encryption key. He is worth more money that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Essence =/= soul
essence == the thing that keeps your soul there
if otherwise was true, cyberzombies would not exist

This is exactly my metaphysical point. When your essence reaches zero, you die (your soul has left, been consumed, whatever I don't care). Becoming a cyberzombie requires the crack team of mages to go somewhere and do a very tricky magical ritual to recover or bind the soul to the body to prevent it from leaving despite the fact that essence = 0 or less = dead.

Leaving all discussion of rules behind now, the vampire that comes after you've had your life force sucked out is a creation of an evvvvviiiillll magical virus, and can very well have parallels drawn to the shedim. The virus is a magical thing that swarms into empty hosts, triggered by the experience of fatal essence drain, and reanimates it with a new evil and malicious agenda.

[Fortune]

This is exactly my metaphysical point. When your essence reaches zero, you die (your soul has left, been consumed, whatever I don't care). Becoming a cyberzombie requires the crack team of mages to go somewhere and do a very tricky magical ritual to recover or bind the soul to the body to prevent it from leaving despite the fact that essence = 0 or less = dead.

And HMHVV leaves you in a near-death state while the virus does its very tricky magical transformation stuff to prevent you from dying, after which you revive.

[Cthulhudreams]

And HMHVV leaves you in a near-death state while the virus does its very tricky magical transformation stuff to prevent you from dying, after which you revive.

Yeah, this is another valid reading if you accept the position you outlined previously. I'm not sure we'll ever agree.

Interestingly, if you do take that perspective, as critters have essence (don't they?), what I don't get is why doesn't everyone and their dog become a vampire in SR4? I'd be voluntarily infected. And you don't have to become an unreasonable asshole. You just need to farm some very fast breeding animals. I'd suggest rabbits.

[Fortune]

Interestingly, if you do take that perspective, as critters have essence (don't they?), what I don't get is why doesn't everyone and their dog become a vampire in SR4?

Smart predators would work to prevent this type of thing from occuring for various reasons, not the least of which is that it would greatly diminish their 'preferred' food supply. Also keep in mind the need for 'intense emotion' during the Essence Drain process.

[Cthulhudreams]

Okay so we switch to deers and call them all Bambi (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But still, if I had the cash I'd hire a team of runners to abduct a vampire and coerce it into transforming me into a vampire via xtreme violence. Free super powers and immortality? Hell yeah. It doesn't make any sense not to do it, unless of course you die and are replaced by a shedim like creature, and plenty of 'players' in SR have more than enough money. Then you don't have to die in a plane crash.

And hell if people are willing to keep wendigos and banshees on staff, vampires are the least of the problem.

[Kremlin KOA]

This is exactly my metaphysical point. When your essence reaches zero, you die (your soul has left, been consumed, whatever I don't care). Becoming a cyberzombie requires the crack team of mages to go somewhere and do a very tricky magical ritual to recover or bind the soul to the body to prevent it from leaving despite the fact that essence = 0 or less = dead.

Cybermancy, remember? AN example of something other than your essence holding your soul in place
Infection suggests, due to the lack of death for 12 hours (in the essence integrity theory, the brain rots beyond repair in minutes), that the virus is holding the soul in place.

Leaving all discussion of rules behind now, the vampire that comes after you've had your life force sucked out is a creation of an evvvvviiiillll magical virus, and can very well have parallels drawn to the shedim. The virus is a magical thing that swarms into empty hosts, triggered by the experience of fatal essence drain, and reanimates it with a new evil and malicious agenda.

Then why do so many Vampires have NO EVIL AGENDA in SR canon? The bartender that only takes a single essence point off someone, and only from volunteers (popular enough to get one a month tho). Jetblack, who gave up fame, fortune, babes and adoring fans so that others would not repeat his 'mistake' of becoming a vampire to escape death. De Vries, who hunts other vampires. Janine Verner, who chose to die rather than eat ppl. If the virus was in charge and sentient, these characters would not exist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the rule apply to essence drainers like vamps? Idf so it doesn't apply to metahumans. Atleast not until they have died and came back as "a new critter"

I was using it to show that an infected can survive for a while at 0 essence. This would be precident that the virus can keep the host alive for 12 hours no problemo. Frank wanted a rule that showed an exception to 0 essence = insta dead.

as far as Jetblack, I think the argument is, the "new critter" has access to the metas feelings and abilities. They might even think they are the same person. Think of it like implanted memories and skillsofts.

Makes no sense. If the virus was in charge, the memories would be secondary. NO shedim has been as selfless as Jetblack.

Well, that doesn't really matter since the runners killed him anyways to get the encryption key. He is worth more money that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It matters, edven if you kill him in On the Run. That means for 18+ years he resisted the urge to reveal himself and get a legion of adoring gothy fans who would give him a near limitless essence supply and all the money and nookie he could have. He would have been safe, protected, rich, powerful, famous. An amoral virus would have absolutely no reason to turn such down.

Interestingly, if you do take that perspective, as critters have essence (don't they?), what I don't get is why doesn't everyone and their dog become a vampire in SR4? I'd be voluntarily infected. And you don't have to become an unreasonable asshole. You just need to farm some very fast breeding animals. I'd suggest rabbits.

1: the emotional content suggests that the essence drain must be from people
2: Why doesn't everyone and his dog get wired reflexes? it makes you so much faster and more powerful. Similar logic
3: The real cyberpunky question here is "What makes you a person? What makes you a machine/monster?" Where is the line drawn. Some people draw it at 3 or less essence, others draw it at Cyberzombie or brain in a jar. Many will draw it before "Creature thast needs to drink human blood and bits of their lifespark to live"
4: oh wait, the book says they must drink from SENTIENT beings. SOrry babi is off the menu

[Cthulhudreams]

Makes no sense. If the virus was in charge, the memories would be secondary. NO shedim has been as selfless as Jetblack.

Maybe the newly created creature isn't under the influence of the virus beyond the compulsion to irrepairably drain people's life force - which is unquestionably evil no matter how you slice it.

1: the emotional content suggests that the essence drain must be from people
2: Why doesn't everyone and his dog get wired reflexes? it makes you so much faster and more powerful. Similar logic
3: The real cyberpunky question here is "What makes you a person? What makes you a machine/monster?" Where is the line drawn. Some people draw it at 3 or less essence, others draw it at Cyberzombie or brain in a jar. Many will draw it before "Creature thast needs to drink human blood and bits of their lifespark to live"
4: oh wait, the book says they must drink from SENTIENT beings. SOrry babi is off the menu

cool, but I can shoot down all your arguments here really easy. If a 1 month old baby is a viable target, so is a dolphin.

Also, don't spirits have essence scores? Checking reveals that they do. They are obvious suckers for this job. I just accept 'spirit bane' earth spirits is something I have to live with and beat down force 1 spirits with essence drain. Tada. No cost unlimited essence on tap that is unquestionable sentient, and additionally, as it will have implacable hatred towards you and that you'll have to savagely beat it down every time, fills the strong emotion part.

And even better, you automagically become a mage! No cost vampirism! If I actually have to drink blood as well I can just buy cloned blood from doc wagon. That is so cheap as to be the same as free.

Seriously, why wouldn' you become a vampire when immortality is as low cost as this (you're out some cloned blood instead of food and probably want to buy some sort of assault rifle)? And you get to be mage AND you get super powers.

[swirler]

Makes no sense. If the virus was in charge, the memories would be secondary. NO shedim has been as selfless as Jetblack.

Vamps aren't shedim, Unless something has changed to say they are.

[Kremlin KOA]

Maybe the newly created creature isn't under the influence of the virus beyond the compulsion to irrepairably drain people's life force - which is unquestionably evil no matter how you slice it.

never said they weren't evil. But your arguement here assumes killing=evil.

cool, but I can shoot down all your arguments here really easy. If a 1 month old baby is a viable target, so is a dolphin.

Not necessarily. Dolphins are quite likely, as SR canon suggests they might be sentient. But puppies will never work.

Also, don't spirits have essence scores? Checking reveals that they do. They are obvious suckers for this job. I just accept 'spirit bane' earth spirits is something I have to live with and beat down force 1 spirits with essence drain. Tada. No cost unlimited essence on tap that is unquestionable sentient, and additionally, as it will have implacable hatred towards you and that you'll have to savagely beat it down every time, fills the strong emotion part.

Ok, let's do a checklist
1: Target is sentient? Check
2: Target has strong emotion toward myself? Check
3: Target Target has blood? Ah crap The target needs blood to feed off at the same time

[Wanderer]

Okay so we switch to deers and call them all Bambi (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But still, if I had the cash I'd hire a team of runners to abduct a vampire and coerce it into transforming me into a vampire via xtreme violence. Free super powers and immortality? Hell yeah. It doesn't make any sense not to do it, unless of course you die and are replaced by a shedim like creature, and plenty of 'players' in SR have more than enough money. Then you don't have to die in a plane crash.

And hell if people are willing to keep wendigos and banshees on staff, vampires are the least of the problem.

Who says it is not happening, right now, in the setting ? I'm willing to bet that occasional runs are managed to do just that. Differently from leonization, vampiric immortality has no cap whatsoever, and whereas it is gives more hassles and drabacks than becoming a formula for a free spirit, it gives more power, too (HMHVV the only widely-accessible way that person utterly lacking the potential for Awakening can break through). Likewise, I do expect that somewhat of a black-market does exist between some wealthy seekers for immortality and the more business-minded of the vampires and wendigoes. Selling out Infection is but a pure gain for the latter, they only have to take care not to create an overpopulation (just keep the price very high, but not so high than going through the kidnapping run becomes the only viable option for the would-be wealthy immortals).

[Particle_Beam]

Keep in mind that there is still a small chance that you won't rise up as a vampire (yeah, a small chance, but there is one for failure). Also, not being able to eat other food, nor alcohol, having a permanent allergy to wood and sunlight plus being bad at swimming, not having necessarily having magic (it's not described how they get it, as not every vampire can cast spells) no practical cyber- and bioware... Also, drinking blood will become very boring with the time, especially considering that you have enhanced senses.

In the late 21st century of the Shadowrun World, being a Vampire isn't all that snazzy anymore, if for some grands you can easily become young again, and still live the good life.

[Adarael]

If you want real immortality, a copy of JackBNimble and a drone shell is the way to fly.
But that's just my take on it.

[nathanross]

Immortality is overrated.

And as for JetBlack, I don't think his removal from the public is selfless in any way. He realized that he might be risking his precious immortality if he never aged in the public eye. It was not because he didn't want to be adored, seeing as he then gathered his own vampire possy. He is like most of the vampires/nosferatu in SR: intelligent and cunning.