[X] My Assistant

[FrankTrollman]

Keep in mind that there is still a small chance that you won't rise up as a vampire (yeah, a small chance, but there is one for failure).

It's not small. The Vampire rolls Charisma + Magic, the victim rolls Body + Willpower. If the victim rolls more hits, or ties, the victim spends several hours wracked in agony, dies, and then stays dead.

Joe Vampire has a Magic + Charisma of 8, and thus has a better than 1 in 4 chance of failing to infect an average civilian that they murder with essence drain (and is basically a coin flip or worse on anyone who is considered competent). Becoming a vampire voluntarily is an incredibly risky proposition. Aside from the fact that it's not "you" on the other side according to the game metaphysics, your chances of actually creating a vampire rather than a cold lump of meat are pretty similar.

-Frank

[Stahlseele]

3: Target Target has blood? Ah crap The target needs blood to feed off at the same time

really? didn't someone mention blood now being dietary requirement so they have to drink blood but that has nothing to do with their need for drained essence?

as for the turning . . does the vampire throw down his dice every time he sends someone into 0 essence regions or does he get to decide wether or not he wants to try and create a newbie?

[Adarael]

Aside from the fact that it's not "you" on the other side according to the game metaphysics, your chances of actually creating a vampire rather than a cold lump of meat are pretty similar.

In order for the first part of this to hold up, logically speaking, you'd have to define what constitutes a self.
If a vampire isn't 'you' despite retaining all your memories, beliefs, habits, skills and whatnot, then neither is a successful adult cyborg or a teenage goblinization (rare as they are) the same person as it was in the meat body.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mostly because I refuse to get into that definition war. I'm just saying that one cannot concretely say that it's "not you" without first defining what is you and what isn't. It definitely isn't the same person in terms of abilities, but I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it's not fundamentally the same 'you' any more than I'd say it about someone who gets cyberlegs and the cyberpsychosis flaw after a car accident.

[Starmage21]

It's not small. The Vampire rolls Charisma + Magic, the victim rolls Body + Willpower. If the victim rolls more hits, or ties, the victim spends several hours wracked in agony, dies, and then stays dead.

Joe Vampire has a Magic + Charisma of 8, and thus has a better than 1 in 4 chance of failing to infect an average civilian that they murder with essence drain (and is basically a coin flip or worse on anyone who is considered competent). Becoming a vampire voluntarily is an incredibly risky proposition. Aside from the fact that it's not "you" on the other side according to the game metaphysics, your chances of actually creating a vampire rather than a cold lump of meat are pretty similar.

-Frank

Meh, if the target was willing, I'd just drop the +willpower part.

[Particle_Beam]

You can't drop the part, as you have no influence over the transmogrification anymore, since you dropped to 0 essence, and this discussion non-withstanding, you're dead, or unconscious, or watching spirit tv, or doing it with yourself. Being willing only helps for the being sucked-part, but not being transformed into a sucker in the end.

SR 2070+++ is the age of the transhumanists (*sob*). Being a measly vampire in that ages has lost quite much of its appeal. 2070+++, nobody cares about longevity, but about entertainment, and how to pass the boring days of that moment you call life. And with simsense abundle and practicable non-expensive cyberware, nobody really needs to be a glorified mosquito with transilvanian accents who fears garlick anymore.

All that matters is if you're rich or not. If you're rich, you don't fear age. If you're poor, life sucks anyway more than a vampire could ever.

[Adarael]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I would let people drop the +willpower thing, either. Mostly due to the fact that allowing something to kill you and change you into another creature type is a pretty freaking alien concept that the subconscious should probably recoil in horror from allowing to happen.
Especially since fundamentally, people generally have reservations about eating other people.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

You're bringin' me down, Particle Beam.

[Kremlin KOA]

really? didn't someone mention blood now being dietary requirement so they have to drink blood but that has nothing to do with their need for drained essence?

It is both
they need it as a Dietary thing, AND they can only essence drain a target while drinking blood from them

[Starmage21]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I would let people drop the +willpower thing, either. Mostly due to the fact that allowing something to kill you and change you into another creature type is a pretty freaking alien concept that the subconscious should probably recoil in horror from allowing to happen.
Especially since fundamentally, people generally have reservations about eating other people.

I never said finding a willing target would be easy, just that IF you could find one who was really willing, +willpower on the resist roll doesnt make sense. There are always caveats you could throw in there if you dont wanna make it easy for those people.

[Kremlin KOA]

Immortality is overrated.

And as for JetBlack, I don't think his removal from the public is selfless in any way. He realized that he might be risking his precious immortality if he never aged in the public eye. It was not because he didn't want to be adored, seeing as he then gathered his own vampire possy. He is like most of the vampires/nosferatu in SR: intelligent and cunning.

warning SR1 spoilers ahead

"...worse, some of his fans might follow in his footsteps, making what he now recognized as a hideous mistake. Jetblack chose what he considered the only honorable course. He abandoned his career, faking his own death and going underground into hiding."

sorry it was a selfless act

[Adarael]

Well, that's both true and untrue.

If you're being nerve gassed, you're probably willing to jack yourself in the leg with atropine. Yet despite that willingness, a very large percentage of people who have had to inject themselves with a visible needle hesitate to do so. That's why autoinjector pens were created.

Just because the forebrain things it'd be a good idea doesn't mean the subconscious doesn't fight it.

[Malicant]

Metatypes aren't explained by genetics, not are mages. At least, not fully. Those are all 'mana active genes', genes that only activate when a certain universal mana level is reached. Otherwise, we would have orks, trolls, elves etc walking around modern day life. SR isn't a scientific game. So sure, the gene altering virus works, but the virus isn't only gene-altering, its Awakened. Maybe it alters the genome of the host enough to be able to sustain itself after the original person's soul (his essense) is drained. However, there's a different soul in the host creature now, making a totally different being than the original.

It is explained by genetics. Meta genes are still genetics, no matter how little understood they are. And we wouldn't have orks etc running around today, since those genes activate if enough ambient mana is present. BTW, genetics 101: inactive genses are junk, but they are still present and still carry information.
Also, Essence is not soul, but that was pointed out like a gazillion times already. Kind of frustrating.

What the hell? Malicant, this is the last time I will respond to you on this or any topic, because talking with you is frustrating and pointless. I asked you to find a rule to support your rules based position, and not only did you refuse, you physically can't.

Look who's talking. I won't quote those rules again since I and others already did and you just ramble on how page 62 wins all.

YES! I Know what near-death means. I'm an ambulance technician. I worked in hospice care. I'm in medical school. Near Death means literally that, that you are extremely close to being completely dead. It does not mean that you automagically recover. People who are near death actually die every day. In fact, most people who are near-death, die. We make such a big deal out of the people who come near to death and then pull through because they are unusual.

Wow, so you are in medical school. Like I was a few years back. Does this really help here? I don't think so. Just to elaborate on death a little more. If someone dies, he cannot be revived. If he was revived, he did not die, was just clinically dead (I used that term like a gazillion times too). Also, people near-death pulling through is not as unusual as you make it sound. I know a few people who should be dead, most from cancer and similar terminal diseases, a few from ridiculous accidents. Big deal.

Seriously, all you have in this argument is a tragically optimistic personal definition of a word which has nothing whatever to do with the word's actual meaning. Well, that and the presuppositions that you bring to the table from how vampires work in other games or how you think the self and the soul work in the real world, which are both complete non sequiturs in this discussion.

What optimistic personal definition? Now you make me wonder if I missed a few of my own thoughts. Also, I don't bring to the table the workings of other games vampires, since the only games I know about vamps are realy different then SR vamps are presented. Well, I guess D&D vamps have a few similarities, now that I think about it... but I define SR vamps by using the SR BBB only. And it does not speak about space virii host invaders from outer dimensions. Or awakend virii host creatures while we are at it.

The rules are that you spend 24 hours in "near-death," and that you die, and that a "new critter is created." You can go ahead and think that everyone in "near-death" survives, but this is offensively not the case and if you've ever treated the actual sick and dying you will come to the realization immediately of what a complete insensitive tool you are being.

Actually, the rules are the victim enters a near death state and revives within 24 hours. He dies only if we believe page 62 overrules every exception (which is by definition impossible). And then he would actually stay dead, since science cannot bring back dead people and magic can neither.

You don't live when a vampire drains your Essence. A new critter may or may not come into existence, but "you" cannot survive this process. And if you (like me) have a more Lockeian view of the Self such that continuity of experience necessitates continuity of self, all that means is that vampires in your world have to have a discontinuous experience - the extra knowledge and opinions added by the virus must be that much more intrusive, the absorption of the host's old memories that much more incomplete. Because however the Self is defined in your world, the newly created vampire is defined as not having it left over from the human that just got brutally tortured to death over two days.

-Frank

Actually, if the vampires has my body and all my memories, he is me. So I did actually survive the process and now am not a virus but a vampire. And I'm loving it. Because the transformation makes me love it.

So, while you accuse me of being optimistic (kind of, which I am not in any way the word is defined), I will acuse you of being stubborn to no end for no reason at all but to have other people follow your way of though. And since you actually propose HMHVV to be a virus possesing the Inhabitaion power, I have the strong need to oppose this, since NOTHING but your weird out-of-context interpretation of zero Essence and Infection support this. But don't be hatin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

Actually, the rules are the victim enters a near death state and revives within 24 hours. He dies only if we believe page 62 overrules every exception (which is by definition impossible). And then he would actually stay dead, since science cannot bring back dead people and magic can neither.

*sorcery* (spellcasting in SR4) cannot bring back dead people. no such limit exists on magic in general.

[Malicant]

Like there is really a difference. Between magic and spellcasting, that is. Like, spellcasting is a means to do magic, and stuff.

[Particle_Beam]

Well, there are metamagic rituals, and the conjuring-skill group, which varying by paradigma either bring back dead people, or shadowy astral clones of them, but as always, nobody really knows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

Like there is really a difference. Between magic and spellcasting, that is. Like, spellcasting is a means to do magic, and stuff.

actually, it does make a difference. in earthdawn, you could restore life to people with magic; it therefore stands to reason that it's a theoretical possibility for shadowrun to have that same possibility... just not with sorcery.

(for example, cybermancy or, arguably, HMHVV)

[Malicant]

Yeah, you could restore it in Earthdawn. With bad ass pattern magic. But then again, in Earthdawn spells sustained themself, you could summon spirits with spells, and so on, so I guess it is not really a valid arguement here.

Also, vamps in Earthdawn were just angry undead corpses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

never said they weren't evil. But your arguement here assumes killing=evil.

welllll... it is pretty much.

Ok, let's do a checklist
1: Target is sentient? Check
2: Target has strong emotion toward myself? Check
3: Target Target has blood? Ah crap The target needs blood to feed off at the same time

Actually I went home and checked and it doesn't work on astral entities either which probably precludes spirits... UNLESS!

We use inhabitation and force the spirit into bambi, or a bag of blood, as described earlier. That beats 3 and the rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vampirism has a no cost to society outlet for essence draining, so there is no reason (unless you are actually killed) not to become a vampire.

[Malicant]

My reason for not becoming a vamp would be you cannot eat stuff without getting sick. I love food. Hm... foooood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Vampirism has a no cost to society outlet for essence draining, so there is no reason (unless you are actually killed) not to become a vampire.

You're wrong. Emo goths are a tremendous burden on those who have to put up with them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Particle_Beam]

My reason for not becoming a vamp would be you cannot eat stuff without getting sick. I love food. Hm... foooood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You also can't drink alcoholic beverages anymore. In the year 2070+++, there aren't enough perks for becoming a vampire. It would surely have been wicked cool if it were 1670 A.D., or 570 A.D., or even 1970 A.D.

But 2070+++? Man, being a blood-sucking looser surely blows... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Malicant]

Worse even, you can't drink yourself into a storpor and try to forget the shitheap you've become. Or take any drugs.

[Cthulhudreams]

How has a vampire become a shitheap? They are freaking awesome. Immortality hurrah.

Sure I mean it would be a bit of a downer if you where actually meaningfully restrained from doing anything, but i can get essence by slapping spirits around and doesn't street magic has a suppress allergy spell? That I can wack into a sustaining focus and stroll around and high noon?

On the upside, now I'm an awesome mage with super powers. And immortality. Sweet.

[Malicant]

People always wish for immortality while they don't even know what to do on a rainy sunday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

Like there is really a difference. Between magic and spellcasting, that is. Like, spellcasting is a means to do magic, and stuff.

Like there is really a difference. Between fruit and apples, that is. Like, apples are a kind of fruit, and stuff.

welllll... it is pretty much.

So... that girl who killed her father, to stop him from raping her little sister, while he was doing that very act, is evil?