If they can do Dragon PCs..., vampires and wendigoes should be no problem !!! Options

[Malicant]

I don't like the rabble masses vampire feel Wheadon created. Also, they burst into flame if you even think about pointing a stake in their general direction. That's kind of lame. I like vampires having fewer numbers, being selctive about procreation and maybe having some weird powers. Or at least real strenght and durability.
And they should not bleed. Corpses without pulse should not get bruises and should not bleed. Unfortunatly the only game that adresses this, even if only a little, is WoD.

I think I need to play Blodlines again for some neet vampire action. Jack rules! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hermit]

Since when are Infected animated corpses? If that were so, Vampires' lower parts would swell significantl and turn red as allt he blood sips down, while the upper part should be dried ... some sort of circulation would be needed for them to maintain a somewhat human appearance.

[Malicant]

I was just talking about general vamps, not SR Infected, who are kind of in the twilight zone of the whole undead thingy.

[hermit]

I am talking about general vamps too, like the WoD ones, who also abide by the laws of gravity.

[Malicant]

WoD vampires are animated corpses. No blood in their veins, no heartbeat, no bruises, no bleeding.
Anytime I see a vamp flick where the vamps claim to have no heartbeat, but start bleeding like any other sucker after a brawl, I lose interest in said flick in an instant.

[hermit]

Uh-Hunh. I like the infected version (Underworld, UV, Blade, et al) better anyway. Animated corpses have to be reduced to rotting while walking, uttering the occasional 'bleweh' and 'bwaaaaar' and eating brains, if you ask me.

[Malicant]

Which I don't.
And WoD vamps start to rot if they don't feed on blood.
Infections are for half-scientific wussies, IMO. If I want supernatural, I don't try to explain it with idiotic half-assed theories about blood diseases. I like the SR Infected though, since there is no real science involved. Magic and metagenes saved the day for me.
Until SR4 made blood a dietry requirement. But hell, that's what houserules are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Infections are for half-scientific wussies, IMO. If I want supernatural, I don't try to explain it with idiotic half-assed theories about blood diseases. I like the SR Infected though, since there is no real science involved. Magic and metagenes saved the day for me.

Yeah, I liked that too. Besides, why can't there be magic viruses? Blade overdid it, very much, yes. I still like an unexplained magical virus thing better than zombies deluxe (with feelings! that are all emo and goth-gorl-shag-machines!).

As for the dietrary requirement ... well duh ... you don't mind that in oWoD either, don't you? I certainly do, but I mind a lot of things SR4 changed.

[Adarael]

And WoD vamps start to rot if they don't feed on blood.
Infections are for half-scientific wussies, IMO. If I want supernatural, I don't try to explain it with idiotic half-assed theories about blood diseases. I like the SR Infected though, since there is no real science involved. Magic and metagenes saved the day for me.
Until SR4 made blood a dietry requirement. But hell, that's what houserules are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Point 1: WoD vamps most certainly do not begin to rot when they don't feed. There are specific flaws to that effect, but in general vampires who don't feed just become progressively more pissy. You could also argue that Samedi rot more if they don't feed, but they rot to begin with.

Point 2: Blood has always been a dietary requirement, just not worded in the way it is in SR4. It's always been essence drain based, but vampires have never been able to use their essence drain ability in any form other than via blood drinking.

[FrankTrollman]

The Shadowrun Vampire is an animated corpse. The living entity is a virus which can revert into a cloud of gas and turn itself into the shape of the original victim at a later date. They can't have sexual children with humans or with anything else. To reproduce, they kill and infect other metahumans.

Technically the scientific name of a vampire should be "Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus."

-Frank

[BiffKun]

What you should be asking is can you make a normal shadowrun character at 325 points that is at the same power level as a dragon. If the answer is no, then dragons are overpowered, simple as that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But then again, trolls are overpowered compared to everything else: 40bp extra for 80bp worth of stats, dermal plating, reach, and thermographic vision? Ya.

[Wanderer]

Most likely. I bet you also would hate me as a GM. And yes, I see that as primarily fishing for sympathy and trying to capture everyone's attention. Sue me or deal with it, I suppose.

More simple amicably to refuse and have you as a GM, I suppose. However, I have to state that at least as much as I'm concerned, your vision is way off the mark. I do fancy a lot playing powerful, passionate characters that you would most likely deem Mary-Sueish, but fishing for attention is not the goal. It is all about being larger-than-life, having flashy, on the edge concepts, and interesting, colorful personalities, and, above all, the intoxicating feeling of vicarious fantasy empowerment that comes from playing uberpowerful badasses that can take any crap short of epic their world throws at them, and throw it back sevenfold. It has nothing to do with hogging the spotlight.

My typical attitude would be more along the lines of "kill it dead".

Hehehe, did I tell you that the zealot witchhunter is my preferred brand of cannon-fodder NPC in any game and setting ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I never tire of killing Inquisitor NPC, they are my Orks and Nazis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

1) You can convert loved ones, if you really love them. Somehow, Wendigos can do that.
2) Wendigo generally are as sociable as poisoner toxics (not very), so no pack there.

Sure, Infected can always choose to convert close friends and loved ones. If they are any smart, they only do it if the subject consents, is likely to adapt well to the violent lifestyle (Jane Runner is rather more likely to do than Jane Wageslave) and is of the metatype that is known to retain sentience after HMHVV infection. OTOH, if they do, it is a wonderful opportunity for companionship. Sharing the lifestyle may be one of the best way to ensure a successful relationship.

Vampires and wendigoes are rare, but there is nothing in their makeup to make them asocial any more than the need to adapt to a predatory lifestyle. And as nature shows us, predators can perfectly adapt to live in small groups and social circles. So a vampire or wendigo can surely come to see his runner mates as her "pack", even if they are not Infected.

And it is assumed that noninfected reayt with "wee cool" on having a dangerous, psychotic predator among them as the new team member that will consider them food once they have to be holed up together for more than a few days. Well yeah. Sure.

First of all, please don't misuse the word "psychotic". It pains the eyes of professionals. The word means "having delusions, hallucinations, or gross disruption of ability to think coherently". As a rule, vampires and wendigoes have not any of them as a side-effect of their nature (individuals may, of course, but that's another matter). If anything, the word you are seeking is "sociopathic", and even that is terribly abused in popular culture.

Second, the vast majority of runners is perfectly able to kill their teammates if they were to turn on them unexpectedly. The Infected are nothing new on this. It all balances on mutual need to have trustworthy allies and contacts, the undesirableness of mutual assured destruction, the vital importance of relaibility in runner society, and well even predators may have some need for companionship. So if an Infected enters a runner team, he is not going to turn on them at the last opportunity, and so are his pals.

Third, and most important, it takes many months, up to a year, before a vampire or wendigo is starved for Essence and becomes dangerously hungry with an overwhelming craving. The likelihood that an Infected runner is going to be holed for months together with his team, with no access to other subjects, and no possibility to gorge on Essence before going in, is abysmally low.

The problem lies more in the attention-seeking, world-breaking, overpowered and flat application of that. If you only want to play your slightly idealised self in sR, that's weird, but perfectly non-sue on it's own.

As I said, attention-seeking is not the goal of my gameplay and is diligently avoided. Overpowered and world-breaking, as you put it, playstyle is indeed a goal, but I prefer to think of it as "epic", "cinematic", and "larger than life", in the purest Hollywood/Hong-Kong action-movie blockbuster tradition.

[BiffKun]

WoD vampires are animated corpses. No blood in their veins, no heartbeat, no bruises, no bleeding.
Anytime I see a vamp flick where the vamps claim to have no heartbeat, but start bleeding like any other sucker after a brawl, I lose interest in said flick in an instant.

Malicant obviously you have never played WoD if you say vampires in WoD have no blood in their veins and no heartbeat. Blood is the very essence of what makes the vampire, and in fact the lower the amount of blood the vampire has the more likely they are to go on a feral killing rampage. Blood is everything to the vampire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Added to that, WoD vampires don't rot if they fail to feed on blood, they just get really really crazy.

[Malicant]

As for the dietrary requirement ... well duh ... you don't mind that in oWoD either, don't you? I certainly do, but I mind a lot of things SR4 changed.

In WoD it's not a dietry requirement. It's the fuel they use to keep themselfs going. That role is filled by Essence Drain in SR, making the blood part kind of... meh. It serves no purpose.

Point 1: WoD vamps most certainly do not begin to rot when they don't feed. There are specific flaws to that effect, but in general vampires who don't feed just become progressively more pissy. You could also argue that Samedi rot more if they don't feed, but they rot to begin with.

Yes they do. The bashing damage they suffer when out-of-blood is them turning into the rotting corpses they should be.

Point 2: Blood has always been a dietary requirement...

No, blood was only neccessary as a transmitter for Essence Drain. It said in SR3 that vamps don't need blood for anything but the draining process. Which you did say, of course. but you are wrong to assume that is the same as a dietry requirement.

Malicant obviously you have never played WoD if you say vampires in WoD have no blood in their veins and no heartbeat. Blood is the very essence of what makes the vampire, and in fact the lower the amount of blood the vampire has the more likely they are to go on a feral killing rampage. Blood is everything to the vampire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Added to that, WoD vampires don't rot if they fail to feed on blood, they just get really really crazy.

You, sir, are very wrong. You will not find a drop of blood in a WoD vampire. What you will find is Vitae, which is NOT blood. Also, Vitae is not stored in his veins, but rather in the region where the vampires organs used to be. And as I said before, they rot without blood/Vitae.

[hermit]

More simple amicably to refuse and have you as a GM, I suppose. However, I have to state that at least as much as I'm concerned, your vision is way off the mark. I do fancy a lot playing powerful, passionate characters that you would most likely deem Mary-Sueish, but fishing for attention is not the goal. It is all about being larger-than-life, having flashy, on the edge concepts, and interesting, colorful personalities, and, above all, the intoxicating feeling of vicarious fantasy empowerment that comes from playing uberpowerful badasses that can take any crap short of epic their world throws at them, and throw it back sevenfold. It has nothing to do with hogging the spotlight.

Unless that's the specific focus of the campaign, that's what you do, though (and you also piss everyone off).

Hehehe, did I tell you that the zealot witchhunter is my preferred brand of cannon-fodder NPC in any game and setting ?

Hunh. That's actually the only cocnept in VTM I find vaguely appealing. But that's very vague.

Vampires and wendigoes are rare, but there is nothing in their makeup to make them asocial any more than the need to adapt to a predatory lifestyle.

Uhm, which part of "TOXIC SHAMAN" is so hard to understand? Vampires less so, but Wendigos? Besides, Vampires usually end up twisted mages, too.

It pains the eyes of professionals. The word means "having delusions, hallucinations, or gross disruption of ability to think coherently". (...) If anything, the word you are seeking is "sociopathic", and even that is terribly abused in popular culture.

Well, yes? According to fluff, many vampires and Wendigos end up like that, especially when hungry. Okay, or sociopathic. Now satisfied?

And as nature shows us, predators can perfectly adapt to live in small groups and social circles. So a vampire or wendigo can surely come to see his runner mates as her "pack", even if they are not Infected.

What predator lives in a pack with their prey? Humans don't count, as farmers don't trewat cattle as pets, and we very rarely eat our pets if we keep them.

Second, the vast majority of runners is perfectly able to kill their teammates if they were to turn on them unexpectedly. The Infected are nothing new on this.

Oh yes, they are. If need be, they'd turn on them because their hunger makes them. Or just because they finally snap completely.

if they do, it is a wonderful opportunity for companionship. Sharing the lifestyle may be one of the best way to ensure a successful relationship.

Yeah, everyone infected will thank their maker for that great gift ... uh, sure.

the vital importance of relaibility in runner society

Exactly. And Vampires and moreso Wendiigos are hardly reliable, being all twisted and toxic and, as you put it, predatory. Or would you easily trust your life to something that considers you food (or a plague to earth)? I know I certainly wouldn't.

and well even predators may have some need for companionship.

Oh sure. They live off people but need being wubbed too. Jeez. Totally. Especially wendigo, being toxic shamans and all.

As I said, attention-seeking is not the goal of my gameplay and is diligently avoided. Overpowered and world-breaking, as you put it, playstyle is indeed a goal

No offense to you personally, but that sounds a lot like using 30-megaton h-bombs for precision, no-collateral damage strikes. In special campaigns where going wild is the theme? Sure, that'll work. In a more default SR campaign? No.

[Malicant]

Uhm, which part of "TOXIC SHAMAN" is so hard to understand? Vampires less so, but Wendigos? Besides, Vampires usually end up twisted mages, too.

Wendigos are not toxic. They might become so, sure, but are not by default. Most would be twisted most likely, but even that is not neccessary.

[Starmage21]

What predator lives in a pack with their prey? Humans don't count, as farmers don't trewat cattle as pets, and we very rarely eat our pets if we keep them.

Only because cattle are too large to keep as household pets. its actually quite common for hogs(pigs) to become household pets in rural farm areas, even to hog farmers(mmm bacon).

[Adarael]

In WoD it's not a dietry requirement. It's the fuel they use to keep themselfs going. That role is filled by Essence Drain in SR, making the blood part kind of... meh. It serves no purpose.



Yes they do. The bashing damage they suffer when out-of-blood is them turning into the rotting corpses they should be.


No, blood was only neccessary as a transmitter for Essence Drain. It said in SR3 that vamps don't need blood for anything but the draining process. Which you did say, of course. but you are wrong to assume that is the same as a dietry requirement.


You, sir, are very wrong. You will not find a drop of blood in a WoD vampire. What you will find is Vitae, which is NOT blood. Also, Vitae is not stored in his veins, but rather in the region where the vampires organs used to be. And as I said before, they rot without blood/Vitae.

I think part of the confusion here is that while you have the basics correct, you're assuming things are going on when there's no support for that. Kinda like assuming wired reflexes cause time to dilate - it's not an incorrect idea as far as awesome or fluff goes, it's just not actually what's happening.
Also, I never claimed blood was a dietary requirement for WoD vamps. I meant it has always been a requirement for SR vamps. They have always had to use essence drain by drinking blood - the blood they drink 'carries' the essence. You might say that there's no reason for that since it's just the essence drain power, but if it doesn't drink blood, there's no reason to even call it a vampire at all. Or have any vampiric weaknesses. Those exist. They're master Shedim. Vampires, by definition, drink blood to drain essence. Functionally if you must drink blood to drain essence OR drink blood when you drain essence and you also have to have the stuff itself, then really you're just splitting TINY hairs.
Or to put it another way: if in one edition I have to be a magician to cast spells and in the next I have to have bought the magician merit AND a spell to cast spells.. we're really talking about the same thing here.

WoD Vampires: I challenge you to find me any place where it states vampires store vitae only in their organ-places. You won't find it. What's more, the descriptions of vampiric damage and combat in both old and new World of Darkness suggest that you're wrong. Their entire body stores said vitae, and consequently when punctured, it will leak out. They won't bleed per se, but blood will fall out of their bodies and get it smeared all over the place. (Vampire: The Requiem, p. 156).

In NWoD:
-Blood and vitae are identical unless they are within a vampire's body. See page 156 - vitae becomes regular old blood upon leaving the vamp's body. Vitae is just the fancy word for it while a vampire is able to use it to do magic stuff. QED since there's no mystical congealing of energy to blood when a vampire opens a vein and feeds some to their ghoul, we can assume that blood and vitae look and function identically once they leave the vampire's body, and are indistinguishable by scientific means.
(If you're gonna go, "Well, I said there was no BLOOD", then I should point out that this is semantic hair splitting and is retarded. So don't try that argument. It's like whining about clips vs magazines when discussing Die Hard: we don't care. We just care that John is gonna kill some people.)
-Spending blood causes the vampire to look more dead, not to rot. A corpselike appearance is common, vampirically speaking. Rotting as you spend blood is not. Page 156 again. Given that no social penalty is accrued, we can assume that this progression from full pool to empty is very slight, physically speaking.
-Vampires empty of blood do not take damage simply because they are empty. They simply cannot spend blood - this includes spending the blood required to awaken in the evening. THAT is where the damage comes from. It's because they might be 'burning up stored energy of their consciousness' or something. Not simply by being empty. What's more, there's no evidence that this is 'rot'. There's as much evidence of rot as there is that it's rigor mortis. None. (Page 176). Evidence in support of the fact that it's weakness and not rot is as follows: the vampire is never penalized on social rolls for having rotted if they're awoken after several nights of this, despite the fact that they will not have healed the damage. And if rotting isn't gonna give you a social penalty, I don't know what is. Furthermore, that damage isn't bashing, it's lethal. Just by way of clarification.

In OWoD:
-The rules are almost identical for the most part, only the wording changes. Vampires empty of blood lose health levels when REQUIRED to spend blood, which generally only means while waking for the night or hit with a Thaumaturgy effect. Again, no penalty for social rolls if the vampire is awoken with blood. (Vampire: The Masquerade 3rd Edition, page 216).
-Unfortunately, vampire blood in OWoD is described alternately as totally mundane (3rd edition books, mostly) and as being inherently supernatural and detectable by science (Strike Force Zero, The Valkenberg Foundation, others).

[Wanderer]

Unless that's the specific focus of the campaign, that's what you do, though (and you also piss everyone off).

Only if the campaign is specifically focused to be utterly incompatible with high-powered characters and gameplay, and I wouldn't ever play in one such.

Hunh. That's actually the only cocnept in VTM I find vaguely appealing. But that's very vague.

To anyone their own fancies, with my blessing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My utter loathing for the witchhunter concept is rooted in my radical hate for RL violent religious zealots.

Uhm, which part of "TOXIC SHAMAN" is so hard to understand? Vampires less so, but Wendigos? Besides, Vampires usually end up twisted mages, too.

In SR4, the magic traditions that condone or exalt predatory behavior are Twisted most likely at worst, but may be mainstream at best. They have little to do with the apocalyptic worldview SR4 toxic uphold. Wendigos and vampires are not toxic by default.

As Malicant aptly said, they might become so, sure, but are no more likely than other runners. Most Infected would be twisted most likely, but even that is not neccesary.

Well, yes? According to fluff, many vampires and Wendigos end up like that, especially when hungry. Okay, or sociopathic. Now satisfied?

I would better describe the state the Infected enter at Essence 0 as a severe withdrawal syndrome akin to the one addict to hard drugs and alcoholics experience. I won't deny that in such circumstances Infected, like addicts, may experience a temporary psychotic breakdown, but I made issues with your previous use of the word, since it implied they were psychotic all the time. Yes, sociopathic is a much more appropriate description.

What predator lives in a pack with their prey? Humans don't count, as farmers don't trewat cattle as pets, and we very rarely eat our pets if we keep them.

See Starmage21's comment.

Oh yes, they are. If need be, they'd turn on them because their hunger makes them. Or just because they finally snap completely.

Infected only turn dangerously Essence-craving when they are completely starved, which takes many months to develop. And they are no more likely to "snap" than any other individuals living a high-stress lifestyle of constant violence, like say, the vats majority of shadowrunners. Third, the runner community is no stranger to to subpopulations of individuals with questionable psyches, like cyberzombies, addicts to augmenting drugs, followers of Berserk Mentors, etc.

Yeah, everyone infected will thank their maker for that great gift ... uh, sure.

Of course, not everyone, maybe not even most. It all depends on the circumstances of the infection. It is the vast majority of those subjects who willingly consented, or even requested, the transformation, that are likely to have a positive attitude on it.

Exactly. And Vampires and moreso Wendiigos are hardly reliable, being all twisted and toxic and, as you put it, predatory. Or would you easily trust your life to something that considers you food (or a plague to earth)? I know I certainly wouldn't.

Please, repeat with me, in SR4, the Infected are not toxics by default. HMHVV does not bestow any special mystical sympathy with purposeful destruction of nature. The Infected are to humans what wolves and lions are to deers. They are as much natural as predator animals are, quite a lot. They have no metaphysical affinity to apocalyptic spread of radiation, pollution, pestilence, and such. Please.

Oh sure. They live off people but need being wubbed too. Jeez. Totally. Especially wendigo, being toxic shamans and all.

Differently from what Hollywood may show, even many sociopaths may like company. That's part of what gangs are all about.

No offense to you personally, but that sounds a lot like using 30-megaton h-bombs for precision, no-collateral damage strikes. In special campaigns where going wild is the theme? Sure, that'll work. In a more default SR campaign? No.

That's what high-powered, cinematic rule variants and gameplay is all about.

[Fortune]

I may be wrong, but ...

hermit: Didn't you at one point state that your typical game involved PCs with Karma in the high triple digits, if not the thousands? How could the addition of these things you protest so strongly against possibly be that detrimental to a game of that scale?

[hermit]

My utter loathing for the witchhunter concept is rooted in my radical hate for RL violent religious zealots.

You don't need to be a religious fanatcic to hunt vampires, do you? I was more thinking of something like Buffy anyway.

In SR4, the magic traditions that condone or exalt predatory behavior are Twisted most likely at worst, but may be mainstream at best. They have little to do with the apocalyptic worldview SR4 toxic uphold. Wendigos and vampires are not toxic by default.

Source?

I would better describe the state the Infected enter at Essence 0 as a severe withdrawal syndrome akin to the one addict to hard drugs and alcoholics experience. I won't deny that in such circumstances Infected, like addicts, may experience a temporary psychotic breakdown, but I made issues with your previous use of the word, since it implied they were psychotic all the time. Yes, sociopathic is a much more appropriate description.

That might work for your infected-friendly style of gaming. That doesn't mean it's anywhere near canonic. That's more along the lines of obsessive/compulsive when not hafing sucked soul for some time (and not just when they're completely drained, the craving just totally gets out of control then and the nearest essence-carrying creature is attacked then.

Third, the runner community is no stranger to to subpopulations of individuals with questionable psyches, like cyberzombies, addicts to augmenting drugs, followers of Berserk Mentors, etc.

Cyberzombies? As Runners? Uhm ... no. In your games maybe. In games that actually consider the maintainance, both mundane and magical, a CZ needs, no, they make no runners. They might work in a corp campaign, but definitly not in a freelancer game.

Please, repeat with me, in SR4, the Infected are not toxics by default. HMHVV does not bestow any special mystical sympathy with purposeful destruction of nature. The Infected are to humans what wolves and lions are to deers. They are as much natural as predator animals are, quite a lot. They have no metaphysical affinity to apocalyptic spread of radiation, pollution, pestilence, and such. Please.

SR =/= WoD. Accept that. And yes, unless it has been reconned, Wendigo ARE by default toxic shamans. Even Janice Verner was.

That's what high-powered, cinematic rule variants and gameplay is all about.

What it isn't, though, is the default style SR is designed and balanced for.

[Fortune]

I just re-read the section detailing Vampires and Wendigo in the SR4 rulebook, and the section in Street Magic that discusses Twisted and Toxic Magic, and could find no mention at all of either of them being Toxic (or Twisted) by default, or even as a common occurrence. Can you please provide me with a location in one of the SR4 books (I have them all) that even implies wendigo and/or vampires are by default toxic magicians?

[Malicant]

SR =/= WoD. Accept that. And yes, unless it has been reconned, Wendigo ARE by default toxic shamans. Even Janice Verner was.

Retcon does not exist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . In SR4 Wendigos were never toxic. The description of toxic mages is not in line with "killing people to feed on them". That would be twisted, like Blood Magic and Cannibalize Metamagics.
Also, I don't remember Janice Verner being Toxic. It's quite some time since I read the books, but I recall she died before going into predator mode. Might be wrong on this one, though.

I think part of the confusion [...tl;dr...]

The confusion is solely on your part here.
SR vamp needed always blood. A token amount, just like noted in Essence Drain. But in SR4 in addition to that they need blood as food. That is a Dietry Requirement. And that's what I think is kind of... not neccessary.

And I know that I won't find anything to solidify my claims on WoD vamps, since I am way to lazy to reread those books for a single passage. But I think the Pro/Epilogue of V:tR mentions exactly what I said about them beeing bloodless corpses. Pale and cold to the touch unless they want to appear normal, because no blood runs through their veins. But hell, who cares? This is not the WoD forums.
Just one final thing. Vitae is not blood. Feed a guy blood and he will get sick at best. Feed the same guy vitae and he will become quite strong and resilient. WoD Vampires drink blood and turn it to vitae in the process. It does not course through their veins, unless they force it to (losing it for any other use in the process) to fake a lifelike appearence.

[Kremlin KOA]

I do, and no, because neither elves nor other metahumans have either special dietrary requirements that make them "special", nor do they have a "hunted" sign on their forehead as soon as they out themselves, and thus, cocnealing their infection and their ... eating habits ... will take up undue amounts of time for that character only, with the vamp character always having the campaign revolve around him and his vampire-y-ness. Spotlight whore.

You mix up things here good. Vampires (and other infected) are hunted because of what they are and will be shot on sight justr because. They also, in addition to law enforcement, always have dedicated organisations out to kill them (for something they aren't faulty of, a Mary Sue trait).

Elves, 1st ed had special dietary requirements (no meat)
Elves, Orks, Dwarves and Trolls, Hunted sign. for something that is not their fault and they never chose.
Hunting groups include, but are not limited to:
Humanis Policlub
Human Nation
Alamos 20000

Humans hae a hunted sign too: Sons of Sauron

Street Samurai have anywhere up to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1,000,000 in SR3 or :nuyen:250,000 in valuable tech IN THEIR FREKING BODIES. Now THAT is wish fulfillment if anything is.

Or magicians, 1% or less of people can do what i do, I can do anything that normal people can do, in addition I can alter the world with my wishes.In addition I can summon powerful magical beings to be my friends... Also I can search my self in a big spotlight hogging 'initiation' of self discovery. After that I can explore magical new worlds on my own and gain awesome secrets and powers there to bring back to help my friends.

Or Otaku/Technomancers "Call me NEO!"

Also, there's alwyays this "am I yet human" factor with vamps, this emo "oh, I did ghastly things, but I have to, I am still feeling!" factor that is central to many Mary Sues.

You mean the "I have less than 1 essence and am more machine than man, but I am still a person!" and the "I am a killer for hire, but deep down I love my friends and contects and try to hold some moral ground." which is shadowrunner default persona

Or "I am 8-10 feet tall and look like something out of your nightmares, but I am still a person. May I have a cup of tea?"

And that I don't really see how, except for an insane or vampire themed campaign, such a character could be integrated into the group without being the constant sucker for attention just because of it's affliction and the needs and troubles that come with it.

Please, for the sake of all gods, above and below, please tell me that pun was unintended.

First of all, please don't misuse the word "psychotic". It pains the eyes of professionals. The word means "having delusions, hallucinations, or gross disruption of ability to think coherently".

That is Psychotic as in Psychosis, where Psychoticism (where the person is also called Psychotic), in Academic Criminology, refers to what WWs Exalted calls 'High Conviction' the ability to do stuff that is necessary despite the emotional hardness of it.

Differently from what Hollywood may show, even many sociopaths may like company. That's part of what gangs are all about.

AMEN!!!
Okay as someone who is diagnosed as 'mildly sociopathic', I can confrim this. We like being around people, even if we do not give a flying frag what happens to them the next day. People make life less boring. Not just gang types either. I personally prefer the University academic crowd. It is nice to have people that can hold up their end of a decent arguement.

[Kremlin KOA]

SR =/= WoD. Accept that. And yes, unless it has been reconned, Wendigo ARE by default toxic shamans. Even Janice Verner was.

Wendigos are all shamanic magicians following predatory totems such as Wolf and Shark. They use their magical skills to enhance their hunting, and some wendigos use illusion magic to disguise themselves and walk unseen among their prey.

I am gonna go and see if I can dig up my copy od Paranormal Animals of North Aerica after i get some sleep