If they can do Dragon PCs..., vampires and wendigoes should be no problem !!! Options

[FrankTrollman]

Yes, regardless of what, if any magical powers the original Ork had or did not have, once it has been Essence Drained to death and then had a Wendigo created in its place the ensuing creature is now a Shamanic (and toxic) magician. That is because it is a new creature, and the magically capable organism is the virus, not the Ork.

-Frank

[Kremlin KOA]

Yes, regardless of what, if any magical powers the original Ork had or did not have, once it has been Essence Drained to death and then had a Wendigo created in its place the ensuing creature is now a Shamanic (and toxic) magician. That is because it is a new creature, and the magically capable organism is the virus, not the Ork.

-Frank

Um frank, note the quote DOES NOT say toxic

[swirler]

just skimming some of the posts and thought it was relevant to point this out
some people are under the impression that vampires and people playing them didn't exist before Whitewolf

also playing a vamp doesn't mean you have to be an "Anne Rice wetboy"
a guy in our SR1 game played a troll vamp (not a dszoonoqua(sp) and it kicked ass
and that was before any of us had heard of WOD, anne rice or vampire hunter D

[FrankTrollman]

Um frank, note the quote DOES NOT say toxic

Yes, that quote does not say "toxic." What's your point? I note that Toxic traditions also don't have rules in the book that quote is from.

Wendigo are not nice people. They aren't even metahumans. They are a virus that absorbs the memories of creatures whose soul it devours through the medium of first eating their flesh. An act it generally performs after it uses its mind control powers to get its prospective victim to assist in killing and eating other metahumans. The totems which guide wendigo are totally crazy evil fucks by any metahuman standard. Every single one of them qualifies as a twisted path.

-Frank

[Kremlin KOA]

Yes, that quote does not say "toxic." What's your point? I note that Toxic traditions also don't have rules in the book that quote is from.

Wendigo are not nice people. They aren't even metahumans. They are a virus that absorbs the memories of creatures whose soul it devours through the medium of first eating their flesh. An act it generally performs after it uses its mind control powers to get its prospective victim to assist in killing and eating other metahumans. The totems which guide wendigo are totally crazy evil fucks by any metahuman standard. Every single one of them qualifies as a twisted path.

-Frank

Give me a rules or fluff quote, in ANY book which lists them as toxic

[Fortune]

The totems which guide wendigo are totally crazy evil fucks by any metahuman standard. Every single one of them qualifies as a twisted path.

Twisted is quite different than Toxic.

Can you please point me toward the text in any SR4 book that states, or even just implies that any, let alone all Wendigo are Twisted or Toxic?

[Stahlseele]

for example, why would a wolf-shaman wendigo be twistedt?
the wolf aspect of the hunter would be fitting for one of them.
As you said yourself, they ain't even metahuman anymore . .
so it would not even be their own "pack" they are hunting O.o

[FrankTrollman]

for example, why would a wolf-shaman wendigo be twistedt?
the wolf aspect of the hunter would be fitting for one of them.
As you said yourself, they ain't even metahuman anymore . .
so it would not even be their own "pack" they are hunting O.o

Oh sure it's natural and normal for them, but from the Metahuman standpoint it's wicked and twisted. They aren't summoning spirits of man, they summon Carnage spirits instead. They aren't metahumans, they aren't summoning metahuman spirits. That's natural for them, but it qualifies as sociopathic by metahuman standards.

-Frank

[Stahlseele]

so, by that reasoning, all immoral elves and dragons and drakes, shapeshifters and the such are twisted/toxic?

[FrankTrollman]

so, by that reasoning, all immoral elves and dragons and drakes, shapeshifters and the such are twisted/toxic?

Those are non-standard, non-human traditions. However, the definition of a twisted path is entirely subjective from the standpoint of metahuman morality and law. Immortal Elves and Dragons could be considered twisted yes, but it would be a hard sell because of the very large amount of time those people spend not killing and eating metahumans.

Wendigo fucking eat people. The actions they perform are "considered evil" by metahuman shamans. That alone makes them qualified as a Twisted Path. Go ahead and read the definition of Twisted Paths on page 137 of Street Magic (not sure if it's too long a section to paste up here). Would you say that cannibal cult leading mass murderer qualifies as someone who is "fettered by the ethics and morals of society as a whole?" Would you say that qualifies as "asocial tendencies and/or sociopathic behavior?"

Remember, moral relativism is relative to something. In the case of Shamanism it is relative to metahuman cultural norms. Wendigo fall outside those norms in shocking and horrific fashion. That makes them twisted by definition.

-Frank

[Fortune]

a Wendigo created in its place the ensuing creature is now a Shamanic (and toxic) magician.

Wendigo fall outside those norms in shocking and horrific fashion. That makes them twisted by definition.

Which one is it?

[Stahlseele]

some Shapeshifters eat people, Dragons eat people sometimes,ghouls eat DEAD people . .
so those are all twisted then?
and one particular paragraph i like about the twisted from Street Magic:

Shadowrun does not distinguish between the two paths in
terms of rules or makes judgments about the nature of sanity,
good, or evil. In the following material, the terms twisted magicians
and twisted paths are used to refer to both. In either case,
the Awakened are touched by the darkness within—as such, they
provide particularly challenging and dangerous adversaries for
those unlucky enough to cross swords with them.

[Kremlin KOA]

Oh sure it's natural and normal for them, but from the Metahuman standpoint it's wicked and twisted. They aren't summoning spirits of man, they summon Carnage spirits instead. They aren't metahumans, they aren't summoning metahuman spirits. That's natural for them, but it qualifies as sociopathic by metahuman standards.

-Frank

so all shark shamans are twisted then?

[Malicant]

the definition of a twisted path is entirely subjective from the standpoint of metahuman morality and law.

That does not make much sense. Magic is described as a personal art. You don't turn twisted just because someone thinks you're evil. There are some traditions that would be exclusivly twisted otherwise.

Also, let's take the first sentance out of the Toxic Magic part in Street Magic

Toxic magicians are Awakened characters whose sanity, outlook, and magic have become tainted by environmental blight or human desolation

Now, how does that fit with Wendigos?

Well, let's take a look and Twisted just for fun.

Among the Awakened community, the term twisted is used to refer to those magicians and adepts who have crossed the fine line between magical insight and madness

Well, that might work for a Wendigo, but I just cannot see how all of them could fit into this just for being Wendigo.

And I also cannot see how they are the Virus. I stick with the less far-fetched explenation that the virus just changes them.

[hermit]

so, by that reasoning, all immoral elves and dragons and drakes, shapeshifters and the such are twisted/toxic?

'Twisted' Surely applies to Aina's path of magic (after all, a good portion is horrors magic she learned from her ex-bf, the horror whose name starts with Y), and Alachia's and possibly Harley's, too. All IE are into blood magic to some degree, a form of magic which IS considered twisted. So, for IE, this would be a definite yes.

As for dragons, drakes, and shifters, I guess no - dragons practice nonhuman magic, but don't delve into the sacrifice/cannibalistic path a lot (they know what that will eventually bring up), drakes do what dragons do, just not as effective, and shifters follow animal totems. The last two pretty much do what ordinary humans do, magic-wise.

And malicant ...

Now, how does that fit with Wendigos?

Like that:

Through either prolonged exposure to the abysses of modern society or some tragic, life-changing event, the minds of toxics become warped and poisoned.

Selective quoting FTW, eh?

Also, next paragraph:

Toxic magicians are often loners, driven by hatred of their species and themselves. Having left behind their former paradigms (and mentor spirits), they now follow the toxic path.
They revel in blight and disaster, spreading various types of poison (not necessarily pollution) to feed their agenda. Some are gleefully insane, while others are methodical nihilists, deep ecologists, or neo-Darwinists.

Sounds like the infected fit in there just fine to me. Also, please read the paragraph on Reaper shamans. Or, hell, I'll just quote it:

Reapers see metahumanity as a cancer consuming the planet, and themselves as just another malignant tumor. Predatory exploitation, overpopulation, pollution, and other man-made ravages have destroyed the eco-system. Metahumanity has evolved into a parasite that must be eradicated to ensure the
planet’s recovery.

Goes well with the predatory role the vampy fanboys attribute to the infected, doesn't it? Now ganted, not every wendigo will run about trying to exterminate humanity as a whole, but that's where the wobbliness of SR4's mentor/path system comes in. They don't have to, they just have to vaguely behave like that to be classified as reapers.

Also, Hyde-White would work well as a Havoc, too.

[Malicant]

Drakes actually don't do what dragons do. They use Metahuman magic, since they are not Dragons.

[FrankTrollman]

Which one is it?

In 3rd edition and before there wasn't a line drawn between those two options as they were the same. SR4 has not mentioned Wendigo magic since publishing rules dividing the two, so there's no way to know. If I were writing the rules in Runner's Companion, I'd let them choose. But of course I'm not, so they may end up being restricted to one or the other.

Considering that a newly created Wendigo is given a magical tradition and a mentor, it would be entirely reasonable to actually write up the "Wendigo Tradition" in Runner' Companion, although it easily could get cut for space reasons.

-Frank

[Fortune]

Fair enough.

[swirler]

Wendigo fucking eat people. The actions they perform are "considered evil" by metahuman shamans. That alone makes them qualified as a Twisted Path.

Actually remember, they don't just eat people. They get a group of people to eat other people over a long period of time and then eat those corrupted people. It's beyond twisted. It's "Twisted Plus"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

Actually remember, they don't just eat people. They get a group of people to eat other people over a long period of time and then eat those corrupted people. It's beyond twisted. It's "Twisted Plus"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That is a flavor preference, if they fight it, they can live doing much less harm than that. Think of how vegans live

[Stahlseele]

even if i look down on vegetarians/vegans, you can simply not compare it like that . . vegetarians and vegans can live (and no, in my eyes not JUST FINE) without anything from an animal . . a wendigo that does not eat metahuman flesh dies, just as a ghoul will and just as a vampire will, if they don't get their regular fix of essence . .

[FrankTrollman]

even if i look down on vegetarians/vegans, you can simply not compare it like that . . vegetarians and vegans can live (and no, in my eyes not JUST FINE) without anything from an animal . . a wendigo that does not eat metahuman flesh dies, just as a ghoul will and just as a vampire will, if they don't get their regular fix of essence . .

Ghouls are a bad example. Since they have to eat metahuman flesh but don't have to get it from a living and conscious source, a Ghoul actually can achieve limited impact. Ghouls can eat the corpses of people who die of natural causes or the refuse from clones. And while many religious groups consider that no better than the Hannibal crap that Wendigo have to pull, personally I don't have a problem with it.

Once you're dead, your body will be devoured. It does not strike me as ethically superior for your body to be eaten by worms than for it to be eaten by Ghouls. So I'm willing to entertain the notion of "good ghouls" whose civil rights have to be defended. But Wendigo are always going to be Kill on Sight no matter how they "feel" about being a top predator who can only achieve sexual release by torturing a metahuman to death.

-Frank

[Da9iel]

That is a flavor preference, if they fight it, they can live doing much less harm than that. Think of how vegans live

even if i look down on vegetarians/vegans, you can simply not compare it like that . . vegetarians and vegans can live (and no, in my eyes not JUST FINE) without anything from an animal . . a wendigo that does not eat metahuman flesh dies, just as a ghoul will and just as a vampire will, if they don't get their regular fix of essence . .

Of course vegans can live out normal lifespans without eating meat. Wendigos can live out normal lifespans without eating people that they've corrupted into cannibalism. They still eat people, but they don't need to corrupt them into cannibals. That was the comparison. Kremlin KOA wasn't saying they don't eat people.

Why do I have a sudden urge to go get some Soylent Green? Is Tuesday Soylent Green day? I need to check my calendar....

[nathanross]

In 3rd edition and before there wasn't a line drawn between those two options as they were the same. SR4 has not mentioned Wendigo magic since publishing rules dividing the two, so there's no way to know. If I were writing the rules in Runner's Companion, I'd let them choose. But of course I'm not, so they may end up being restricted to one or the other.

Considering that a newly created Wendigo is given a magical tradition and a mentor, it would be entirely reasonable to actually write up the "Wendigo Tradition" in Runner' Companion, although it easily could get cut for space reasons.

Even if you aren't writing for Runner's Companion, I sure hope you got some sections in Gone Wild (or whatever the critter book is going to be).

Of course vegans can live out normal lifespans without eating meat. Wendigos can live out normal lifespans without eating people that they've corrupted into cannibalism. They still eat people, but they don't need to corrupt them into cannibals. That was the comparison. Kremlin KOA wasn't saying they don't eat people.

Why do I have a sudden urge to go get some Soylent Green? Is Tuesday Soylent Green day? I need to check my calendar....

Corrupted meat tastes better! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Seriously though, I am totally looking forward to a nice breakfast salad.

[Stahlseele]

ah, okay, i was barking up the wrong tree so to say . . and over here, it's still sunday O.o