Social Software Killed the Face, Sad Face about Empathy Software Options

[Fortune]

but i think not

Why not?

[Kremlin KOA]

Why not?

Mostly because, for my games, I want the mundane/magical field leveled a lot more than I want face/non face leveled

So I would rather increase the price of those toys
say rating 1-3 rating x rating x (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100
rating 4-6: rating x rating x (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1 000

and software costing a similar amount

[Edge2054]

I don't really see the perception stuff as that unbalanced, maybe a bit but not terribly so.

For one only one skill is affected, for two (and I'm working off memory here) it costs more then 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per die, and for three it costs essence.

As far as the software doing what kinesics already does thing, I agree on that but I don't agree that leaving both in game practically as is works either. This makes kinesics run 30 bp (without factoring in having to cap magic or buy the adept quality) and it's software equivalent still at less then 1 bp.

Social Software negating die pool modifiers up to it's rating is still probably to good, I'd have to do some play testing with it. Negating half it's rating rounded down in die pool modifiers though I could see.

Someone suggested that the software adds to judge intentions rolls... did I misread the book? I don't have the book on hand but I thought it just said that the software can be used to make judge intentions rolls with a die pool equal to it's rating. In which case I still don't understand how software that is less proficient at judging intentions then my character is somehow gives a bonus on social tests.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

I don't have the book on hand but I thought it just said that the software can be used to make judge intentions rolls with a die pool equal to it's rating. In which case I still don't understand how software that is less proficient at judging intentions then my character is somehow gives a bonus on social tests.

I'm not sure either, but if it works by doing something differently from how a human does it, ie a complementary approach, a bonus could be appropriate.

Except that I think it's supposed to work by reading nonverbal cues and analyzing vocal stress or whatever, which is how we do that.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The Attention Coprocessor is gold!

It's nice. But Reception Enhancers add to Matrix, Sensor and Astral, additionally.

[Fortune]

It's nice. But Reception Enhancers add to Matrix, Sensor and Astral, additionally.

That may be, but I was refuting the statement that it 'sucks'.

[nathanross]

again, its probably the devs feeling that not enough people had good social skills and wanted to throw people a bone. just like how Augmentation had +perception mods leaking out of every pore.

If the players dont up their social skills , just limit extended tests to skill # of rolls. This provides a lot of encouragement. Also make sure they never get more than 50% of intended price for a run cause they don't know how to negotiate for shit. They will very quickly learn that they need to have some kind of social character in the group. You can't be shooting shit up all the time.

And just for the record, attention co-processor rocks! Not that it isn't a DP inflation issue.

[Aaron]

If it was me GMing, I'd allow the Empathy program to add to Social Tests, but as teamwork, rather than as a straight bonus.

[Magus]

Now if you just load the emotion/empathy software into your comlink, could you use it on a VR meet in the Matrix? Just what do you roll in a virtual meeting with your Johnson in this instance?

[Aaron]

Another thought is to use the Empathy program like other programs and have it replace your Charisma attribute. That way you still have to have the skill.

[Blade]

I think that emotion software makes perfect sense. Think Voigt-Kampf machine, analyzing the voice tone, the dilatation of the pupil and other clues that aren't easy to hide.
To send the information to the user it can either be a visual sign, a whisper or, more directly a knowledge sent to the brain the way knowsoft makes you know things.
So it's technically possible, at least to get a help on "Judge Intention" tests.


But it still has a few shortcomings: it needs enough input data (harder to use if it can't see the other's eyes for example) and, as all software, it can be deceived. Your cybereyes can fake any pupil dilatation you want, your voice modulator can change your tone... I guess you can have software to help you deceive such software.

So I'll have them in my game, but they'll stick to helping for Judge Intention tests (because that's what they do, if you want a software to help you talk better, buy a skillsoft) and they will have some limits.

[Coldan]

Well, if you have got a problem with the empathy software, just set up a Camera Neutralizer at the meeting with johnson. The empathy soft and also the lie detection software needs the support of a camera. So just disable the cameras and the software is useless. If the runners ask why the camera neutralizer is set up, Mr J can just say, that it is for their own safty. No camera, no pictures.

[Fuchs]

Well, if you have got a problem with the empathy software, just set up a Camera Neutralizer at the meeting with johnson. The empathy soft and also the lie detection software needs the support of a camera. So just disable the cameras and the software is useless. If the runners ask why the camera neutralizer is set up, Mr J can just say, that it is for their own safty. No camera, no pictures.

And no cybereyes.

[Cthulhudreams]

That would be fantastically hilarious.

[quentra]

Man, I wish I had Arsenal now. That sounds like fantastically devious way to screw...I mean challenge the players XD

Hide the camera neutralizer, or have an active hacker mess with the software...Joe Runner will be wondering why his teddy bear is telling him that his Johnson is really an evil Aztech feathered dragon in disguise and is gonna sacrifice them all in a blood rite! :roftl:

Also, I'm thinking of letting Kinesics or a Con test mess with the software, negating the bonuses or possibly inverting them, making it a penalty. While yeah, the concept for emotitoys are really, really stupid, the sad part is that I can see it happening.

[Fuchs]

How exactly would a "camera neutraliser" work on the toy, and not on cybereyes? Or cybereyes linked to the software?

"Can we blind you now, to make sure you're not using this software on us, Mr. Johnson?" is not a good opener.

[quentra]

Hm... Good point. Though hey, if the face is a pornomancer...That would be a better opening than some....things.

Maybe the Johnson is paranoid and wouldn't allow anyone with cybereyes into his meets? Speaking of which, can you hack empathy software? Spoof it or whatever?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The fact alone that said non-sensor rolls Rating x2 pretty much states: Broken.

Maybe the Johnson is paranoid and wouldn't allow anyone with cybereyes into his meets?

..riiight.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I asked my group last night if they were cool with saying "NO" to emotitoys. One guy in the group suggested that we allow them, you just have to make some sort of social roll to get the toy on the table without it being awkward. At the time we agreed, then I got home and thought "wait, so the Johnson's basically always going to be gaining a +6 DP over the PCs because they don't have a face?" I'm not sure I'm ok with that.

[Blade]

There's nothing in the rules about hacking the empathy software but you can easily intercept the data sent by an emotitoy (it's probably non-encrypted) and edit it.
You can even directly hack the emotitoy (it's a wireless enabled device, it's got a node. It's a toy so it should be rating 1) and have it send whatever you want.

[Fuchs]

There's nothing in the rules about hacking the empathy software but you can easily intercept the data sent by an emotitoy (it's probably non-encrypted) and edit it.
You can even directly hack the emotitoy (it's a wireless enabled device, it's got a node. It's a toy so it should be rating 1) and have it send whatever you want.

Unless the Johnson/Runner do the smart thing, and install the software in their headware, and use their cybereyes or skinlinked hidden sensors with it.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah the stupid fluffy coating is not a limitation, you can cut paste the software onto your suit/gun/car/Aibo or you can reroute the video and audio from yourself via the matrix for all it matters to the toy, and then you are fully sweet mate.

In other news, they are completely moronic. The only counters DP pool penalty isn't a bad house rule though. Then you can play fast and loose with modifiers for stuff that is actually a problem in real life and happens all the time - like that the fact that the johnson is a guy with a real job and stuff, and you are a hardened criminal who shoots people for money and have no common cultural touchpoint. And he's from japan and you are from canada and have no common cultural touchpoints. And the only language you have in common is french and that is about his 4th language and frankly you never spoke english all that hot to begin with.

[Edge2054]

A no-camera zone or whatever could counter emotion software I suppose, since it needs some sort of real time sensor feed.

My Face has a full sim rig though, so a no-camera zone wouldn't do much to counter that scenario and as has been brought up cyber-ear and cyber-eye recorders would be an issue as well.

But it still has a few shortcomings: it needs enough input data (harder to use if it can't see the other's eyes for example) and, as all software, it can be deceived. Your cybereyes can fake any pupil dilatation you want, your voice modulator can change your tone... I guess you can have software to help you deceive such software.

This is probably one of my biggest issues with the software. If anything I think the die-pool bonus should be limited to the rating of the sensor it's connected to and that it should be connected to a full sensor suite to be even remotely affective.

Picture a meet at a rigged building with sensors 3. The Johnson knows the buildings owner or maybe even owns it himself and gets his sensor feed for his emotion software through the building. He's running emotion software rating 6 but only gets 3 extra dice because the software isn't picking up enough information to get more then that.

Limiting the software in this way is a huge limitation for sure, but it also opens up a lot of fluff options for the software. Imagine a highly secured corporate building that uses the software at security check points and feeds the information to the guards, it would make them a lot harder to Con, give whoever was in charge of the detachment bonus leadership dice, and even make normal day to day stuff more interesting, like the employees who fake stomach aches to go home early.

For runners they'd have to access some sort of sensor net in the area to make good use of the software. This brings the software more in line with how I picture the other new software functioning. Like the Gait Recognition software or whatever... I don't see that so much as something each Lone-Star Beat Cop runs but something that's tied into a drone sensor grid.

*edit* I wanted to add my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on the replacing Charisma thing too. I think that's a bad idea. It's a mechanic most people already don't like for hackers even though it is canon. On top of this I really don't want to see any 1 Charisma characters showing up with high social skills and it doesn't do much to resolve the number of dice you get for your BP, in fact it would further encourage some characters to start with a 1 or 2 charisma and then band-aid it up to a six affectively with less then one more BP.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

like that the fact that the johnson is a guy with a real job and stuff, and you are a hardened criminal who shoots people for money and have no common cultural touchpoint.

The Johnson hires people to shoot people for money (which he pays, sometimes). So there's that connection. Plus a lot of (not all, or even most) runners have corporate backgrounds. But the real thing is, Mr Johnson probably doesn't want to be your friend, nor does he care if you like him, so what's the big deal?

[Cthulhudreams]

The Johnson hires people to shoot people for money (which he pays, sometimes). So there's that connection. Plus a lot of (not all, or even most) runners have corporate backgrounds. But the real thing is, Mr Johnson probably doesn't want to be your friend, nor does he care if you like him, so what's the big deal?

I would dispute that hardened criminals from the slums have much in common with a university trained, MBA toting executive. And these two people need to close out a handshake deal that they both feel assured will be completed and paided for. And the job is illegal. And they don't know or trust each other.

Damn straight you need to run the tightest negotiations that you humanly can and anything that can help put you in his shoes is a vital edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Cross cultural negotiations are a big problem all the time. Hell, today we have trouble successfully lateral hiring star analysts from one investment bank to another because of culture clashes. i'm sure that if we have cultural clashes in those two very alike worlds, they will exist in the two completely different worlds inhabited by Johnson and Joe Runner.

Also, I imagine shadowrunning is much like consulting. You want to get follow on work from the same provider. So while you probably won't be going to dinner on his Ares' dinner club, liking you, and enjoying working with you is a key priority.