So my GM and I talked..., Possession mage, or a spirit inhabiting a body? Options

[MadPiper]

So my gm and I were talking, I have given him my characters background, or a basically two versions of it. On one side, my character is a possession tradition magician, on the other I am playing a spirit inhabiting my character. Which the way him and I were talking, since in flesh form I would retain all my memories, and I guess, basically think of myself as that person, even though I know I am a spirit. Anyways, I was wondering if you guys could tell me the biggest differences there would be here between them? Especially the flesh form spirit idea, I mean, can I even gain karma like a PC? I am much less familiar with spirit's abilities while inhabiting a person. I mean, how would that even work with the force and stuff? I dunno, I am casting out there for opinions, ideas and suggestions.

I am vigorously reading the SM book on this stuff, and will probably have more specific questions later. Games tomorrow, so thats why I am decided to hit here whilst I am working on it lol.

Oh, and the basic (very basic sum-up) premise for the spirit inhabiting was my character died, and his wife was tricked by a spirit or a free spirit (shadow) to prepare his body as a vessel for it under the assumption it would bring him back to life. She died during the ritual as a result of backlash drain, and the spirit now inhabiting her husband, after absorbing his memories and basically, becomes the character (even though he knows he is a shadow spirit) and feels tremendous guilt over her death.

So now I try to roleplay a character that hates himself because he knows what he is, while trying to do the right thing. Though sometimes his "previous personality" influences him.

Mind you, thats a very basic sum-up of the idea me and my gm are playing with. Idea's and suggestions welcome to that as well!

[MadPiper]

Ok, so from what I get from the SM book is if I play a character, that is a flesh form spirit. Basically, the stats skills etc etc all remain the same, except I get immunity to normal weapons, and realistic form, aura masking. But everything else is the same correct?

If so, does that mean I could use channel and still have spirits possess me, even though I am technically a spirit too? (WTF?)

[crizh]

Pretty sure you can never have any skill from the Conjuring group if you are a spirit...

[masterofm]

Take incompitence summoning, binding, matrix. The character would also be unable to take any form of cyberware, or bioware. The character should also take a -2 to using any form of technology (as spirits have a harder time dealing with that.) The character is always dual natured. Also probably a severe addiction (some sort of awakened drug so that you can keep the body receptive to the spirit, or from rotting, or to keep the body from stiffening up.) If you are possessing a body then also you won't be able to move freely around on the astral. Take a high lifestyle to incorporate the constant usage of drugs, but at the same time live almost a squatters lifestyle. Also you might have to dump a lot of bp into stats and magic to have the character make some sort of sense. Make natural armor linked to your magic (x2) and that your a spirit with the stats equal out with all of the negatives your character has. Since the character that is possessed is already dead at least maybe it helps more in stating the character. Your mental stats are also capped at your magic.

You would get some benni's for being a spirit, but I think that should be discussed with your GM, and after that vicious nerf bat (because lets face it it's a spirit and can only do spirit things) every time you raise your magic it raises all of your attributes by one. The last thing that needs to happen to the character, is you probably only get 50% karma of the group (to keep the character from getting too overpowered.) At the GM's whim he could probably take you on a quest that will restore some more of the memory of the now dead mage, and then boost it to 75% and then maybe to 100% later on in the game.

Note: This is if you decide to go the free spirit route.

*edit* I can see where your going with it on a fluff aspect, but remember when a body is dead it takes all kinds of mumbo jumbo to keep it from rotting (that is if you want to walk it around and have it do stuff instead of freezing it.) Maybe instead of the spirit possessing all of his memories it is more of a faded and badly damaged tapestry. Out of grief I can see if the wife was a powerful mage and in her saddened state she tries to bring her husband back from the dead (thus making the body a powerful vessel.) It's a shame though that she ends up killing herself and instead of bringing her husband back only manages to bind a free spirit into his former body. The spirit is confused, but with at least some assembly of memories manages to hook up with the shadow run team he was just recently apart of (before he was killed.) Maybe take some sort of powerful enemy as a negative trait as there are people still after the corpse?

[Muspellsheimr]

^ ^ You obviously have no idea how flesh-form inhabitation works. If you want to provide advice, don't be a retard and make random shit up - find out how it actually works first.

On the subject of playing a spirit inhabiting a vessel, although possible, I would strongly recommend against it. I was in a game where some of the characters where turned into spirits - it destroyed the game.

[MadPiper]

Pretty sure you can never have any skill from the Conjuring group if you are a spirit...

I thought about that, but it does say,"The combined entity retains all the memories, abilities, and skills (both active and knowledge) of the host, and its appearance is virtually indistinguishable from that of the original vessel."

So maybe this is the only way to get it? I dunno. I do lose all my spirit powers don't I? Well except for being granted realistic form and aura masking of course.

^ ^ You obviously have no idea how flesh-form inhabitation works. If you want to provide advice, don't be a retard and make random shit up - find out how it actually works first.

What exactly was wrong? If I may ask?

On the subject of playing a spirit inhabiting a vessel, although possible, I would strongly recommend against it. I was in a game where some of the characters where turned into spirits - it destroyed the game.

Trust me, I am treading lightly. I am only considering this because of the fun fluff I could have with it. Well, that and my GM has no problem if I want too. As a side note: I am not looking to be munchkin, I avoid abusing the rules as much as possible, I just like the story and thought it would be fun to play out.

[masterofm]

You have to make shit up if you want to play as a spirit Muspellsheimr, because oh gee... I don't know... maybe because there are no rules as written for what he wants. If the spirit is bound to the body why should it be able to move around on the astral? Can spirits summon other spirits? Can they use the matrix? Look into what a spirit can and can't do and then work with that (although some of his character concept goes against the SR universe.) I was just trying to find some way to possibly create a workable character from basically nothing. Even though a lot of what I said was bs (I mean look at cyberzombies for spirits inhabiting dead bodies and how much it takes to maintain it.) It also wouldn't gain the dead man's memories, but his GM said ok and he wants to create it.... Why don't you get creative instead of just saying it's all retarded. If I was the GM I personally would just say no to the character and the fluff concept, but if he wants to maybe try why not give suggestions to help create the character instead of just saying its all stupid. Maybe help him with the fluff side of it too.

@MadPiper - there are really no rules as written for a PC spirit so most of what I suggested is just some form of trying to balance out the character. Quite a bit of what I said does not work in the SR universe, but if you want to try to do something that has never been done while going against a bit of the SR universe I think the concept I gave at least might have some form of balance.

[Rasumichin]

I thought about that, but it does say,"The combined entity retains all the memories, abilities, and skills (both active and knowledge) of the host, and its appearance is virtually indistinguishable from that of the original vessel."

SM also states several times that spirits can never learn any skills from the conjuring group.

[Ice Hammer]

In my opinion, I would recommend playing the possession tradition magician. Unless the GM is planning to run a twisted path campaign, it will be hard to see how a spirit is going to want to work with ordinary shadowrunners, without that entity trying to recruit his chummers to be unwilling vessels for some of his spirit friends.

If a PC can be logically made out of a flesh form spirit, than I would say that the character would not be able to build up Karma normally. They would probably have to make spirit pacts to have karma given to them from normal characters or NPCs, like any free spirit. Which is another reason your GM probably should consider very carefully before letting you play a flesh form character. I don't know if he would want you to be able to enter a pact with a PC, and share with him or her your immunity to normal weapons. Just a thought.

[MadPiper]

SM also states several times that spirits can never learn any skills from the conjuring group.

I am aware, thats why I am confused. The rules contradict each other here.

If a PC can be logically made out of a flesh form spirit, than I would say that the character would not be able to build up Karma normally. They would probably have to make spirit pacts to have karma given to them from normal characters or NPCs, like any free spirit. Which is another reason your GM probably should consider very carefully before letting you play a flesh form character. I don't know if he would want you to be able to enter a pact with a PC, and share with him or her your immunity to normal weapons. Just a thought.

The Gm is aware of every advantage of being a flesh form spirit. Which there are disadvantages too as well, at least as far as I can tell anyways. I would not gain the spirits force to any of my attributes, I would not have any spirit powers except for aura masking and realistic form. Depending on how you interpret the rules I could lose the ability to summon spirits forever. Basically, other then those two powers, all I would get is immunity to normal weapons. Which If I did play a possession mage, all I have to do is possess myself and I would get that anyways. (I would take channeling, what possession magician wouldn't?)

As for the spirit trying to get his spirit buddies inhabiting other pcs, and npcs. I do not think I would, but its up in the air depending on the group I think. I would think I would not because I have all the memories of the person's body, so essentially, would I not become that person? And not all spirits have a known past, half the time their summoned with no recollection of a previous existence, some do, some do not. At least thats the impression I got.

Oh, and would not a body that was recently killed become live again if the spirit that possessed/inhabited the body had the power regeneration? I think I read something about that somewhere... not 100% on that.

Of course, these are how I think it works. At least how I read it, but please correct me if I am incorrect in any of my interpretations and/or assumptions, I am still learning the system!

[masterofm]

The two rules that SR says you can't do. No rezzing and no teleportation. Once that character died he is gone... well unless your playing Shadow Run the FPS, but lets not even open that can of worms.

[Tobias]

See how I’d work it would be how its handled in Deadlands with Harrowed, if your focusing on the story part. Harrowed in deadlands are reanimated dead who have an evil spirit inside them keeping them alive and kicking however sometimes the spirit takes over and does evil stuff. I’d have it as a spirit pact which your wife bound into you as you had terminal disease and was about to die, spirit inhabits you for a short time and kills your wife, for binding him.

You’d gain the immunity to age thing with being the spirits ‘formula’ plus you could probably use the rest of the spirit pact stuff if you look through it. That’s my view on how you could do it.

[MadPiper]

See how I’d work it would be how its handled in Deadlands with Harrowed

Me and my gm worked on this character type, and decided to named it a Harrowed. For some reason he really wants me to be a spirit, but without the personality of one. Here is what we have so far, looking for corrections, ideas, suggestions. Anything really.

Harrowed: A Harrowed character has risen from the grave by a spirit Inhabiting their body. This may have been self induced, a magical groups experiment or done by a loved one. Whatever the case, Harrowed characters can be a rare but, possible result. A Harrowed character is created as a result of a good merge to flesh form, the only difference being that the hosts "Self"? has been retained as well with his knowledge, abilities and memories. The spirit takes on a mirrored personality of the deceased host and acts just as the host would. The Harrowed is essentially the exact same person, with none, or few memories of being a spirit, although no matter what, the character is aware of what he or she truly was. Harrowed characters boast the powers of the, however, there are some drawbacks. Harrowed characters, though still themselves, still have the spirits pyche inside their mind, this is similar to a multiable personality disorder. This can cause problems, such as the character constantly needing too battle their spirits psyche for control under stressful situations. This is similar to a multiable personality disorder. Stressful and dangerous situations can bring out the spirits influence over the character, and in some cases, take complete control of the body for a time.
A Harrowed character immediately gains Spirit affinity for whatever type the spirit shares, and must take Spirit Bane for the opposing type. (You neither gain or lose BP for these qualities) When in a stressful, emotional, or difficult situation, the spirits pyche can influence the characters actions, he or she gets a -2 dice pool to all social situations, with the exception of Intimidate. If the character takes physical damage, he or she must make Willpower + Charimsa with the threshold being the number of boxes of physical damage. (Wound Modifiers Apply) If the character beats the threshold, the character retains control. If the character does not beat the threshold, then the spirit gains control of the body for a number of combat turns equal to the remaining boxes of physical damage minus the hits. If a glitch is rolled during this test, combat turns changes to minutes, and in the case of a critical glitch, combat turns to hours. (Guard does not prevent these glitches)
During this time the spirit has complete control and in most cases the character is a helpless watcher. Only if the spirit (while in control) does something that the character is very opposed too does she get to make a Willpower vs Charisma control roll. (Both parties cannot use their edge on this roll) If the character wins, then she retains control again. However much 'time'? was left turns into stun damage to express the strenuous task of mental combat with the spirits physce. Net hits (if any) from the control roll reduce the stun damage. If the character loses, he remains a helpless watcher and may not try to wrest control for spirits hits minutes.

[O'Donnell Heir]

See how I’d work it would be how its handled in Deadlands with Harrowed, if your focusing on the story part. Harrowed in deadlands are reanimated dead who have an evil spirit inside them keeping them alive and kicking however sometimes the spirit takes over and does evil stuff. I’d have it as a spirit pact which your wife bound into you as you had terminal disease and was about to die, spirit inhabits you for a short time and kills your wife, for binding him.

You’d gain the immunity to age thing with being the spirits ‘formula’ plus you could probably use the rest of the spirit pact stuff if you look through it. That’s my view on how you could do it.

What about a fairly neutral free spirit with possession or inhabitation powers? No reason it has to be strictly "evil, kill everything living".

As to Karma, a living being can willingly give Karma to a spirit. A Spirit cannot gain Karma in other ways, but would use Karma for advancement much like any other character. Perhaps the Spirit or possessed body has a long history with the group, or it has a particular interest in keeping the spirit/body around. With the spirit not getting Karma from runs, the others should be getting a slightly higher share to compensate, then be able to dole out some to the spirit in return for it's services. Certainly gives the spirit a reason not to go out and try to get the other runners possessed. Might add an interesting conversation for the group. "Umm,guys, mind if I have a little of your life force? I mean, it's not like your using it right now..."

[FrankTrollman]

Fleshform Spirits are by far the easiest to play as player characters. They don't get to metaplanar shortcut, they don't get disrupted when they take stun damage, etc. Really it's just like playing any other dual natured character. For that reason, I originally had a line in Street Magic that a Free Spirit who was a Hybrid or Flesh Form gained Karma normally as any other character would from acting in the world. This was meant to facilitate spirits as PCs for Runner's Companion.

But it was cut because at the time the devs weren't sure if they wanted to allow free spirits as player characters under any circumstances. However, as things currently stand, spirit PCs I think are making it into Runner's Companion; so it would be darned silly if you didn't see that line brought right back.

---

Spirits don't get to conjure. And any spellcasting powers they have fall under the auspices of whatever tradition they come from. A free termite worker would be a very plausible character. Remember though, that you'd probably start the game at Force 3.

-Frank

[MadPiper]

Thanks Franktrollman, you have verified my suspicion. I had a feeling they would be touching spirits as playable characters in the shadowrun companion. Stuff like how to spend karma on a spirit and other stuff in the SM book lead me to think they would be doing that.

As for my Harrowed idea, thats just me having fun with fluff really. My gm will probably let me play the spirit's phyche when he takes over, so I will get to have fun shafting myself.

And yea, I found out from the SM errata that flesh form spirits do not get summoning, binding, or banishing. I wish I would have thought to check that a long time ago, but ah well.

Me and my gm decided just to have my spirit character earn karma normally, meaning even if my character somehow ended up with energy drain (karma), any karma I "suck" up will be represented by the karma I earn from roleplaying at the end of the game. So basically, it does nothing, just fluff, which is completely fine with me. I want to the play the concept, couldn't care less about how uber strong a spirit character could possible be. I think in the last two games I used my powers once, and I think that was just movement. Right now we are winging it until more specific rules come out.

A question for you franktrollman, or anyone else who might care to varify my assumption. When a good merge has been made, lets say for example I am a force 7 whatever, so my skills would be 7, which would overlap any other skills the host had before, because mine is higher. Now something like spellcasting, which my host had before, which I basically gain, is at a skill lvl of 3. Now my question is, as time goes on, and I use karma to increase my spellcasting skill. Is my skill lvl cap my force? I assume yes, but want to be sure.

Oh, one last quick question, based what I assume and on what I read on the karma spending, if say, I saved enough karma to raise my force, then my skill cap would increase to that force correct?

"Bows Graciously" Thank you!

[FrankTrollman]

A Fleshform has Modified Attribute Caps of (Racial Maximum + Force) * 1.5.
A Fleshform has skill caps of Racial Max or Force, whichever is higher.

So a human with a Force 4 spirit inhabited in would have a Strength Max of 10 and an augmented maximum of 15. Skill caps would still be 6 however.

-Frank

[MadPiper]

A Fleshform has Modified Attribute Caps of (Racial Maximum + Force) * 1.5.
A Fleshform has skill caps of Racial Max or Force, whichever is higher.

So a human with a Force 4 spirit inhabited in would have a Strength Max of 10 and an augmented maximum of 15. Skill caps would still be 6 however.

Ohhh, ok, so I was right, but there was a little more to it. Thank you for the clarification

Alright, I am a little confused on the edge and initiations. I am referring to pg's. 106-107. I am confused over the edge thing, I am under the assumption spirits do not have to initiate to have a magic att over 6. However, I just do not understand how this works. It says free spirits use edge in place of initiate grade. It also says any of the metamagics techniques available to metahuman initiates may be taken as a free spirit power. But then under USING KARMA on the same page, it says It may initiate as a magician does, though the process grants one additional free spirit power per grade rather than a metamagic technique.

So I am just lost as to how exactly that works, I am sure its more simple then I making it out to be, but I am hitting a brain fart on it.

Ok, one last thing, when a spirit power says to use force, I assume it means its magic attribute, since it would normally be the same as its force. (I ask only because I will probably use karma to singularly increase my Magic Attribute)

My extreme appreciation for your help FrankTrollman. This is helping me out butt loads. I hope you do not mind if I copy your words and examples to print out to take to the games. (So I can attach it to my character sheet to make sure I do everything correctly) If you do, just let me know and I wont though. Either way, thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MadPiper]

-Bump-

[O'Donnell Heir]

Alright, I am a little confused on the edge and initiations. I am referring to pg's. 106-107. I am confused over the edge thing, I am under the assumption spirits do not have to initiate to have a magic att over 6. However, I just do not understand how this works. It says free spirits use edge in place of initiate grade. It also says any of the metamagics techniques available to metahuman initiates may be taken as a free spirit power. But then under USING KARMA on the same page, it says It may initiate as a magician does, though the process grants one additional free spirit power per grade rather than a metamagic technique.

Probably try it this way:
A Spirit's magic is tied to force, so to get a better Magic dice pools they don't initiate, they increase their force instead. So initiation isn't tied directly to Magic pool for free spirits, instead initiation is tied to Edge and spirit powers.
Since Spirits don't use initiation grades, they use Edge, each initiation adds Edge instead of initiation grade or magic. When you gain an initiation grade you choose a power either from the list of initiation powers or from the list of free spirit powers.

In the quick sense:
Instead of Initiation Grade + Magic = Magic ability
Initiation Grade + Edge = Edge ability

which just seems the way it's worded to me, unless someone can prove otherwise.

[MadPiper]

A Spirit's magic is tied to force, so to get a better Magic dice pools they don't initiate, they increase their force instead. So initiation isn't tied directly to Magic pool for free spirits, instead initiation is tied to Edge and spirit powers.
Since Spirits don't use initiation grades, they use Edge, each initiation adds Edge instead of initiation grade or magic. When you gain an initiation grade you choose a power either from the list of initiation powers or from the list of free spirit powers.

So if it works like magicians, if I initiate, my max edge increases, I get to choose a power from my optional list, a free spirit power, or a metamagic. However, initiation would allow me to bump my edge, if I wanted to spend the karma to do so, so I could have a edge higher then my force?

Really confusing, as I could just use karma to buy up my attributes anyways. I dunno, I am missing something I think.

Any idea about the powers reference to force? Would I just use my magic att then?