To bike or not to bike Options

[fool]

I recently started a thread about bicycles and someone said it was poll worthy so I'm throwing up a poll.
Arguments for bikes being part of the canon. They are far better for stealth, they can't be tracked by grid guide, they can go far more places, in urban areas they can often be faster than motor vehicles, they're cheaper, they're more eco-freindly.
Arguments against. They can't go superfast, other vehicles do the same things, and (my favorite) riding a bike will get you shot at just for the hell of it.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Also, "added to the canon" makes it sound like bicycles have magically disappeared between now and 2070, which is a silly idea. I mean, people are using revolvers, eyeglasses, and frickin katanas, plus, while the whole dressing-up-as-a-movie-Indian thing seems to have gone out of style with the 2060s, there's probably still a lot of that.

Heck, I vote for sticking Bicycling into the Athletics Skill Group and for adding Wall Riding as an Adept power.

[Stahlseele]

i voted for "yes and they should have other muscle powered vehicles, like hover boards, skate boards, etc." just because i can and i happen to be a loon who finds that funny as hell and would love to see something like that in his games . . allthough . . the hover-boards would probably get waayy too much quotes from back to the future ^^

[fool]

Sorry I mis voted, I meant to do the third option.
Wall riding would be pretty darn cool. Gecko tires?
or the one where you can go over liquids, tree branches etc.
The possible add ons are immense.
Some time ago, I had a thread discussing whether or not to make things like these there own skills. The general consensus at the time seemed to be not. But to use things like gymnastics for tricks, running for better speed. The biggest problem for me with this is that bicycles, skateboards and (presumably) hover boards do require their own skills rather than being a generalized ability.

[raverbane]

Mountain Bike + Movement&Guard equal a VERY effiecent mode of transport

[Stahlseele]

technically you COULD just add those skills as specializations for athletics . . or make them bound to agility . .
damit, now i'm tempted to try and figure out a way to build a hover-board and i don't even like SR4 <.< . .

[Larme]

omfg. You call this a poll? The choices are a) you're right and I agree with you, b) I'm a retard who clicked the obviously stupid answer, and c) I really really agree with you lots, way to go!!

How about a poll which is, you know, accurate. Designed to elicit peoples' actual opinions, and not to suggest to them what the right answer is. This poll will not tell us anything about peoples' views. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of experimental psychology and polling will tell you that if you slant the answers to your poll, it's garbage.

[fool]

Don't forget concealment if you're trying to be ultra stealthy.
But you can use those options with any form of transportation.

An Idea I had last night was a personalized zeppelin, say the size of a dining room table with a recumbent seat hanging underneath it, using pedal powered propellers for propulsion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

hmm . . can a mini-blimp-drone be made to carry such weight? if so, there you go . . add some dikote . . no, wait, not dikote, ruthenium polymers all around and solar-cells on top and you're good ^^

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

omfg. You call this a poll? The choices are a) you're right and I agree with you, b) I'm a retard who clicked the obviously stupid answer, and c) I really really agree with you lots, way to go!!

Should it be changed to "no, because riding a muscle-powered bike is for wusses and people will shoot at them for fun"? I don't think that this is a place where people are going to answer the way you want them to just because that's what you want -- if anything, the opposite happens because of all the contrarian Germans who respond irrationally to innocent comments like this one.

How about a poll which is, you know, accurate. Designed to elicit peoples' actual opinions, and not to suggest to them what the right answer is. This poll will not tell us anything about peoples' views. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of experimental psychology and polling will tell you that if you slant the answers to your poll, it's garbage.

Really, a poll that allows respondents to self-select is garbage too.

For the mini-blimp thing, it would be way too small unless you also had ducted fans or something. Check out:
http://www.cloudhopper.org/
http://www.clusterballoon.org/
The solar cell part is good, though -- isn't the blimp drone solar-powered?

[raverbane]

Don't forget concealment if you're trying to be ultra stealthy.
But you can use those options with any form of transportation.

An Idea I had last night was a personalized zeppelin, say the size of a dining room table with a recumbent seat hanging underneath it, using pedal powered propellers for propulsion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

That works great in rural and feral city areas. But, unless your GM is nice and lets Guard protect you from auto accidents. Bicycle + Concealment in a city enviroment = death.. hehe

[Fortune]

omfg. You call this a poll? The choices are a) you're right and I agree with you, b) I'm a retard who clicked the obviously stupid answer, and c) I really really agree with you lots, way to go!!

How about a poll which is, you know, accurate. Designed to elicit peoples' actual opinions, and not to suggest to them what the right answer is. This poll will not tell us anything about peoples' views. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of experimental psychology and polling will tell you that if you slant the answers to your poll, it's garbage.

Egads! Unreal! Amazing! Impossible! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

For once, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I really want an option for "I don't care".

[Cthulhudreams]

The problem with forum polls is that the poll originator never has any sort of background in that sort of thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kyoto Kid]

...why of course I said yes to all muscle powered vehicles. How else are my kids going to get around? Well ,Violet usually just hacks a JohnnyCab™ when she needs one as she isn't all that athletic.

[Larme]

Should it be changed to "no, because riding a muscle-powered bike is for wusses and people will shoot at them for fun"? I don't think that this is a place where people are going to answer the way you want them to just because that's what you want -- if anything, the opposite happens because of all the contrarian Germans who respond irrationally to innocent comments like this one.

Nice! You managed to bring racism into your response (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And no, I'm not suggesting that the poll be changed to do the exact thing I was criticizing, only in favor of my own side. I'm suggesting that it be, you know, a poll. Like: "Should there be official rules for human powered bicycles in Shadowrun?" a) Yes. b) No. c) Not sure.

That way, we'd be asking what peoples' opinions are, without implicitly (or in this case, explicitly) suggesting to them what the 'right' answer is. That way, we could look at the results, and have some valid data about what people think, rather than what we'll have from this poll, which is nothing.

Really, a poll that allows respondents to self-select is garbage too.

I think you might be misunderstanding the term self-select. Self selection is not the problem where respondents are allowed to choose their own responses without being led by the questions. Getting accurate reports without leading the respondents is the point of a poll. Self selection is when only respondents that are part of a certain subset of the population comprise the sample. If that happens, you don't have a representative sample, and your poll is invalid. You don't prevent self selection by using leading questions to make people give the answer you want. I don't really see how we could have a self selection problem on Dumpshock. A neutral poll that doesn't lead the respondents should get a pretty good sample of the Dumpshock population, and thus be a pretty valid representation of what people on Dumpshock think.

[Tarantula]

That works great in rural and feral city areas. But, unless your GM is nice and lets Guard protect you from auto accidents. Bicycle + Concealment in a city enviroment = death.. hehe

SR4, 288, "The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced by the Accident power)"

You mean, unless your GM is mean and doesn't let Guard protect you from auto accidents, right?

[Tunnel Rat]

SR4, 288, "The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced by the Accident power)"

You mean, unless your GM is mean and doesn't let Guard protect you from auto accidents, right?

I would not call that 'mean'. It prevents "normal environmental accidents and hazards". It would not prevent non environmental accidents. So accident wouldn't protect you from being struck because the driver couldn't see you. Unless you consider driving into an invisible bicycle rider a 'normal environmental accident'. In which case, I must ask where you live that you have invisible bicyclists!

[Tarantula]

I would not call that 'mean'. It prevents "normal environmental accidents and hazards". It would not prevent non environmental accidents. So accident wouldn't protect you from being struck because the driver couldn't see you. Unless you consider driving into an invisible bicycle rider a 'normal environmental accident'. In which case, I must ask where you live that you have invisible bicyclists!

I'd consider getting in a car accident a "normal environmental accident" for a city. It makes no mention of circumstances. Whether you would have had an accident because your brakes should have failed, the road was icy, or that trucker didn't remember to take his long haul, it prevents it. Period.

[Chibu]

There is absolutely NO need to EVER print rules for a bike in a shadowrun book. Yes, there are bikes. Yes there are skateboards, yes there are roller skates. I've been on runs with people who use all of them. In fact, I suggest referring to the Sunroof article, as the point is the same. Does the character want a bike? They can have one. In fact, they don't even need to pay for one. I'm sure thousands of people still ride bikes in the city. Does the character have a silenced gun? Yes? Well, then go shoot the chain off a bike and it's yours forever.

As for hoverboards... Of course you can have one. Take two out of date Microskimmers, mess with the wiring so that they have an on/off switch. and then glue a piece of plywood (or sheet metal) or whatever the hell macroplast is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) on top of them and you have yourself a fancy hoverboard for only 11K! In fact, get that internal R/C deck and you can control it with your mind!

[Kremlin KOA]

omfg. You call this a poll? The choices are a) you're right and I agree with you, b) I'm a retard who clicked the obviously stupid answer, and c) I really really agree with you lots, way to go!!

How about a poll which is, you know, accurate. Designed to elicit peoples' actual opinions, and not to suggest to them what the right answer is. This poll will not tell us anything about peoples' views. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of experimental psychology and polling will tell you that if you slant the answers to your poll, it's garbage.

So you are trying to suggest he misrepresented your POV in the second option?

NO! NONE FOR YOU! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Erm, sorry. I really don't care if your character rides a bike. But something about human powered cycles just says "wuss" to me, while simultaneously saying "ESPN-2." I'd rather not see them crop up in Shadowrun, because I fear them becoming too common. Shadowrun is about big growling choppers, and futuristic racing bikes that leave neon streaks as afterimages in your eyes! Skates are ok, because you look less dorky when skating than when pedaling a bike...

funny it seems similar enough to option 2

[Kremlin KOA]

I would not call that 'mean'. It prevents "normal environmental accidents and hazards". It would not prevent non environmental accidents. So accident wouldn't protect you from being struck because the driver couldn't see you. Unless you consider driving into an invisible bicycle rider a 'normal environmental accident'. In which case, I must ask where you live that you have invisible bicyclists!

FOr a city, 'Normal environmental accidents' would include vehicle collisions. The fact that the accident is being aided by magic is irrelavent as this also stops the fragging accident power. So a power that makes you harder to notice would not negate it

[Larme]

So you are trying to suggest he misrepresented your POV in the second option?

I'm not one of those people who thinks that every argument disagreeing with my position is an attack on me. It isn't personal. It's just a matter of descriptive statistics. A poll that leads the respondent is invalid. That's all.

And for the record, "NO! NONE FOR YOU!" was a joke. That's why I apologized for it in the next sententce (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If you read my other posts, instead of taking my less serious posts seriously, you'd understand that I'm not against allowing bikes in the game, I'm just not terribly excited about it. But my only position on this thread is that when you make a poll, it should be an actual poll, and not an a) I'm right, and b) you're wrong kind of thing.

[Tunnel Rat]

I'd consider getting in a car accident a "normal environmental accident" for a city. It makes no mention of circumstances. Whether you would have had an accident because your brakes should have failed, the road was icy, or that trucker didn't remember to take his long haul, it prevents it. Period.

Yes, it does mention circumstances. If there are no 'circumstances' then why bother mentioning the words 'normal' or 'environmental' at all? The word 'accident' would cover everything regardless of circumstance, and would mean that as long as it was an 'accident', the power prevented it. The addition of those two words means that there are circumstances in which the power will not protect you.

FOr a city, 'Normal environmental accidents' would include vehicle collisions. The fact that the accident is being aided by magic is irrelavent as this also stops the fragging accident power. So a power that makes you harder to notice would not negate it

The accident power causes accidents. Since the guard power prevents accidents, it is only logical that the two would cancel one another out. This, however, isn't an example of a normal accident, nor one that is caused by the environment. This is the example of an accident caused by carelessness and stupidity on your part. If you cause the accident, directly or indirectly, that hardly qualifies as an environmental accident.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Nice! You managed to bring racism into your response (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Germans are so easy to *get* with that.

And no, I'm not suggesting that the poll be changed to do the exact thing I was criticizing, only in favor of my own side. I'm suggesting that it be, you know, a poll. Like: "Should there be official rules for human powered bicycles in Shadowrun?" a) Yes. b) No. c) Not sure.

That way, we'd be asking what peoples' opinions are, without implicitly (or in this case, explicitly) suggesting to them what the 'right' answer is. That way, we could look at the results, and have some valid data about what people think, rather than what we'll have from this poll, which is nothing.

I think you might be misunderstanding the term self-select. Self selection is not the problem where respondents are allowed to choose their own responses without being led by the questions. Getting accurate reports without leading the respondents is the point of a poll. Self selection is when only respondents that are part of a certain subset of the population comprise the sample. If that happens, you don't have a representative sample, and your poll is invalid. You don't prevent self selection by using leading questions to make people give the answer you want. I don't really see how we could have a self selection problem on Dumpshock. A neutral poll that doesn't lead the respondents should get a pretty good sample of the Dumpshock population, and thus be a pretty valid representation of what people on Dumpshock think.

Any online poll is inherently affected by self-selection, in that only people who are (a) using that website and (b) care enough about the topic to respond are being polled.

That said, I'll agree with you that the choices were too specific. "Yes some rules would be great" and "no the rules would not be useful" are fine choices and we don't need them to be "Yes bikes rule and are the best thing ever" and "No, I think bikes suck and I have an ugly face and big butt and my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt" but hey, whatever.

Anyway es tut mir Leid wenn ich die Deutschen beleidigen habe, aber ich denk dass unsere Sprachluecke einen fehlender Sinn für Humor ... um, yeah, you guys's English is way, way better than my German.

[Tarantula]

The accident power causes accidents. Since the guard power prevents accidents, it is only logical that the two would cancel one another out. This, however, isn't an example of a normal accident, nor one that is caused by the environment. This is the example of an accident caused by carelessness and stupidity on your part. If you cause the accident, directly or indirectly, that hardly qualifies as an environmental accident.

The environment of a city involves cars. Those cars can have accidents. If you have a spirit guarding you, they won't happen to you. It doesn't matter if you step out into the highway, or if you're just driving along as normal and are extra cautious. Either way, the power will protect you.

Just the same, just because you are invisible, or concealed, doesn't make the power not work.