To bike or not to bike Options

[Larme]

Any online poll is inherently affected by self-selection, in that only people who are (a) using that website and (b) care enough about the topic to respond are being polled.

I wouldn't put it that way. If we're trying to get a representative sample of the entire population, then we FAIL. Even a representative sample of Shadowrun gamers might be pushing it. But I don't think that's anyone's goal with a Dumpshock poll. All a Dumpshock poll can do is get a sample of the Dumpshock population. And as such, it can give valid statistics on how people on Dumpshock feel on an issue, as long as it asks questions in a reasonable way. I wouldn't worry about self selection among the Dumpshock population because all it takes is like 5 seconds to vote in a poll, it isn't like a thread where you actually have to read a bunch of stuff and think up a response before answering. It doesn't actually require caring.

That said, I'll agree with you that the choices were too specific. "Yes some rules would be great" and "no the rules would not be useful" are fine choices and we don't need them to be "Yes bikes rule and are the best thing ever" and "No, I think bikes suck and I have an ugly face and big butt and my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt" but hey, whatever.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[quentra]

How does a hoverboard count as 'muscle-powered transportation?'

[Stahlseele]

'cause the board only hovers, you still have to overcome inertia and steer it with body-motion

[DocTaotsu]

I vote for the 4th option. I don't really care? Bikes are pretty damn good for getting around urban enviroments. And a bikes cheaper and still a bit smaller than the other personal transportation options.

Does it require stats and a place in the BBB, Arsenal, or RC? Uhm... not really?

Hoverboards, skateboards with smart tires, these are all wonderful bits of cyberpunk flavor but I really don't think they need to be stated all to hell.

[DocTaotsu]

In fact, they don't even need to pay for one. I'm sure thousands of people still ride bikes in the city. Does the character have a silenced gun? Yes? Well, then go shoot the chain off a bike and it's yours forever.

Well until it's RFID tags trip a LS response (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[ornot]

I vote for the 4th option. I don't really care? Bikes are pretty damn good for getting around urban enviroments. And a bikes cheaper and still a bit smaller than the other personal transportation options.

Does it require stats and a place in the BBB, Arsenal, or RC? Uhm... not really?

Hoverboards, skateboards with smart tires, these are all wonderful bits of cyberpunk flavor but I really don't think they need to be stated all to hell.

+1

If you absolutely must have stats then give them the same as the roller blades I seem to remember seeing in Arsenal. IIRC they increase your movement rate.

[Pendaric]

I should stop reading the forum on my day off. I want those minutes back, damn it.
Ye GADs how can a simple poll end up in so much bickering? Just let it go.
Sigh,
well at least my down load will be finished soon.

HOUSE RULE BIKES! SKATES, SKATE BOARDS, HOVER BOARDS ETC

You have a brain and part of the game is you get to use it. Yay!
Right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

I should stop reading the forum on my day off. I want those minutes back, damn it.
Ye GADs how can a simple poll end up in so much bickering? Just let it go.
Sigh,
well at least my down load will be finished soon.

HOUSE RULE BIKES! SKATES, SKATE BOARDS, HOVER BOARDS ETC

You have a brain and part of the game is you get to use it. Yay!
Right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

The thing is, why house rule it yourself, in isolation, and then either (a) introduce it into your game or (b) playtest it, when you can get suggestions and feedback from a bunch of other people who are also interested in the same thing?

And of course Dumpshock is a bunch of other people who are interested in the same thing (broadly, Shadowrun, and in this thread, either bikes or saying "shut up about bikes already, I don't care about them but I will continue to read this thread for some reason (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) ").

[fool]

A few comments on polling.
First I'll agree that this would be considered a push poll (see I do know a bit about polling.) However, I couldn't come up with a reasonable argument against having some canon rules for MPV's other than that they would take up valuable space in books. Not that there aren't plenty of other things that do that. It's just a matter of what you like as to whether or not it's a wste of space.
Second, for the record, a self-selecting poll is where only people who want to answer the questions are asked. A standard example of this is standing on a street corner and asking people the question. Only people interested will stop to answer the question. This begs the question (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) of whether or not all polls are self selecting, since only willing participants can answer the poll. This means, however, that all polls on the internet are inherently self selecting and therefore not scientifically valid. That of course doesn't mean that they aren't valuable.
Third, I didn't mean for the no answer to be insulting to anyone who answered that way, and apologize if anyone was offended.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
Fourth If you don't care, don't vote, skip the thread and move on.
the comment on concealment was meant tongue in cheek (we need an emoticon for that.) I would definitely say that guard power could protect you from normal accidents, whether or not being invis. is a normal condition is debatable. I'm thinking yes, for flavor, ala the Harry Potter Bus (can't remember the name of it.) And I'm thinking no for game balance.

[Sponge]

In which case, I must ask where you live that you have invisible bicyclists!

No invisible cyclists around here, but plenty of blind drivers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

BTW I am SO giving my next character a bicycle to get around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[fool]

Also, having gone back and looked at the answers on the poll one was yes they're useful and the other was no they're useless. I don't think that actually qualifies as push polling.

[Tunnel Rat]

The environment of a city involves cars. Those cars can have accidents. If you have a spirit guarding you, they won't happen to you. It doesn't matter if you step out into the highway, or if you're just driving along as normal and are extra cautious. Either way, the power will protect you.

Just the same, just because you are invisible, or concealed, doesn't make the power not work.

I have two points here.

1. The guard power does not interfere with free will. If the driver INTENDS to run you down, that would not be an accident. It would not matter why the driver intends to drive through you, even if the reason was because he didn't know you were there.

2. The guard power protects you from accidents, but not yourself. The more reckless you are, the harder it will be for the guard power to protect you. For instance, if you were to go driving down the street in your car wearing a blindfold, the guard power wouldn't stop you from wrecking. It would stop you from glitching, but you could still get into a wreck.

[Larme]

There's no rule that you have to conduct a scientifically valid poll on Dumpshock. But I would assume that if you do a poll, you want to know peoples' honest opinions. You don't have to phrase the questions in an elaborate way. The elaborate discussion part is what the thread is for. There doesn't need to be an argument in each question, in fact, there shouldn't be. So failure to think of a reason to exclude bikes is not a valid reason for giving a slanted response option. That is, if you want to know everyone's honest opinion. If you're just conducting a poll to grandstand, to make fun of the other side, or to "prove" how wrong the other side is with suggestive responses, then it's just a troll, and you don't need to post it. What is wrong with "Yes," "No," and "I don't know?"

[Larme]

1. The guard power does not interfere with free will. If the driver INTENDS to run you down, that would not be an accident. It would not matter why the driver intends to drive through you, even if the reason was because he didn't know you were there.

He can't intend to kill someone without meaning to. So if he doesn't know someone is there, and just keeps driving, he doesn't intend them to die, and thus it is an accident. You're right the Guard won't interfere with free will, of course. If the guy says "I am driving forward now, no matter what gets in my way!" then it would do nothing, even if he ran over a person he didn't see. His reckless driving would have the express intent or running stuff over, so you couldn't prevent that. But if someone is just not paying attention, they do not intend to run anything over, then anything they do run over is an accident and would be prevented by Guard.

2. The guard power protects you from accidents, but not yourself. The more reckless you are, the harder it will be for the guard power to protect you. For instance, if you were to go driving down the street in your car wearing a blindfold, the guard power wouldn't stop you from wrecking. It would stop you from glitching, but you could still get into a wreck.

I pretty much agree there. When you drive blindfolded, it's hard to say that a crash is accidental. If Guard prevented that, it really would be the ultimate power. You can suddenly accomplish amazing feats by not trying, without a roll. Guard prevents ordinary accidents, but it doesn't allow you to magically do difficult things without rolling. While failing a dice roll is certainly not purposeful, it does not qualify as an accident (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Guard would keep unwary motorists from accidentally running down a cyclist, but it would not prevent a crazy cyclist from failing his test and crashing.

[Fortune]

Fourth If you don't care, don't vote, skip the thread and move on.

'I don't care' is a perfectly valid response to the question at hand. It does not have to mean, or even imply that the person does not care about the subject matter, or is not interested in discussion on the topic. it only means that the person does not care if these things are included in the books.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

He can't intend to kill someone without meaning to. So if he doesn't know someone is there, and just keeps driving, he doesn't intend them to die, and thus it is an accident.

Plus, of course, if he doesn't know you're there, he doesn't intend to run you down. He intends to drive through that apparently unoccupied space, and running you down is accidental to that.

Maybe some people are confusing Concealment with Alienation? Because making you the Invisible Pedestrian is pretty explicitly what that power was about.

[Tunnel Rat]

He can't intend to kill someone without meaning to. So if he doesn't know someone is there, and just keeps driving, he doesn't intend them to die, and thus it is an accident. You're right the Guard won't interfere with free will, of course. If the guy says "I am driving forward now, no matter what gets in my way!" then it would do nothing, even if he ran over a person he didn't see. His reckless driving would have the express intent or running stuff over, so you couldn't prevent that. But if someone is just not paying attention, they do not intend to run anything over, then anything they do run over is an accident and would be prevented by Guard.

While the driver might not intend to hit anyone, the guard power should still not be able to do anything about it. Why does it matter what the driver's exact intentions are? As long as he has intentions, the guard power should not be able to interfere. What you're doing is looking at every situation, divining 'exact intentions', and then allowing the guard power to interfere with free will if they don't 'intend' to be reckless or 'intend' to cause harm.

The driver is making a choice of his own free will. It doesn't matter that he's making that choice in ignorance. A choice is a choice is a choice. The guard power can not interfere with the choices of others, period.

[Tarantula]

I pretty much agree there. When you drive blindfolded, it's hard to say that a crash is accidental. If Guard prevented that, it really would be the ultimate power. You can suddenly accomplish amazing feats by not trying, without a roll. Guard prevents ordinary accidents, but it doesn't allow you to magically do difficult things without rolling. While failing a dice roll is certainly not purposeful, it does not qualify as an accident (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Guard would keep unwary motorists from accidentally running down a cyclist, but it would not prevent a crazy cyclist from failing his test and crashing.

I disagree, just because you are blindfolded doesn't make crashing any less of an accident. However, the guard power could be as simple as "the blindfold slips off your head." Or, "you stall the engine and stop inches away from a bus."

I do think that everytime an accident or glitch is prevented, it expends a service.

[Kyoto Kid]

No invisible cyclists around here, but plenty of blind drivers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

...actually there are a lot of invisible cyclists where I live, particularly after the sun goes down. I've nearly hit or been hit by a few myself and I ride a bike (with a powerful halogen headlight & LED taillight).

And these same cyclists wonder why many motorists loathe us so much.

...apologies for the mini rant. Just tired of being stereotyped with the rest of the imbeciles.

[Lyonheart]

I recently started a thread about bicycles and someone said it was poll worthy so I'm throwing up a poll.
Arguments for bikes being part of the canon. They are far better for stealth, they can't be tracked by grid guide, they can go far more places, in urban areas they can often be faster than motor vehicles, they're cheaper, they're more eco-freindly.
Arguments against. They can't go superfast, other vehicles do the same things, and (my favorite) riding a bike will get you shot at just for the hell of it.

You need rules for this... Why? It's a bike, you bike on it, there arn't shadowrun stats for hairbrushes ether but you don't assume they do not exist.

[Kyoto Kid]

...but what if someone hacks your wireless Horizon Stylist-2000 hairbrush and suddenly you end up with a 'fro just before that big date at Matchsticks with the hot babe you met the other night? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

Ah but you could probably calculate it's device rating and upgrade it's firewall... ;p

[WearzManySkins]

@KK
Do you ride a Bent?

WMS

[Fortune]

Do you ride a Bent?

Only immediately after an accident, before he gets around to having it straightened out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[masterofm]

No, no, a thousand times no. Leave it up to a GM to stat bikes and decide what skill to use, and do you know why? I would rather see many other things get fixed then have people spend time on something like this (matrix rules anyone?)

Would it be nice to have? Yes. Is it a total waste of time when there is much more important game balance issues? Yes. I would just rather see other things get done. Sorry.