You know, i think i know why im wary of nerfs, The Nerfing Domino Effect Options

[Synner667]

We're not talking about nerf toys, we're talking about the kind from Star Wars! You smelly nerf-herder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

>sob<

Some people are so mean to me !!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Still not sure what the obsession with half a meter long and well over a meter tall, grumpy, antlered herbivores, resembling yaks, who have long, dull horns protruding from the head and are raised on many planets for their milk and meat has to do with anything !!

[DocTaotsu]

Derail.

Nerf is making a nerf SAW. Seriously, it's a belt fed electrically powered doom machine. It's going to be freakin awesome.

[nathanross]

Speaking of the UE jumpsuits...a little off topic, did anyone recall the fact they come with speakers? This means people that wear them can have their own theme songs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bruce Lee Yellow has a non-negotiable Kung Fu Fighting chip in there as it comes with.
Pink has Abba's 'Mamma Mia'.

..i havn't thought of the other colors. Yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

WOW! I never thought of that. Now I can finally play the Mission Impossible theme while Infiltrating a Corp Facility. Awesomeness!

(On second thought, maybe not the best idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I can easily see corp-sec guards running with FFBA.

Sorry, no way - it's custom-made, and everything a grunt will see in his (short screen-) life is standard issue.

[Fortune]

Mmmmmmm ... Meter tall, grumpy, antlered herbivores, resembling yaks, who have long, dull horns protruding from the head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/facelick.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ornot]

Sorry, no way - it's custom-made, and everything a grunt will see in his (short screen-) life is standard issue.

It probably depends on the facility and the professional rating of the guards. If someone was a professional guard I can easily see them personally investing in FFBA to wear in addition to their corp issued armour. I'd be inclined to give some to senior Lonestar officers too. They've been around the block, probably been shot at quite a bit, and found out at first or second hand how much it hurts to get hit. They've also had the time to save up enough to get it made.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Possible, but usually they would have to exchange it too often to be economically viable.

[DocTaotsu]

I don't know about you but FFBA isn't exactly the most expensive thing in the world and it does offer a great deal of protection. If their corps doesn't provide it I'm sure smart (read: senior) guards/LS are going to buy at least some of it for themselves.

And no matter how dark and gritty your world is it's still cheaper to buy a new set or armor than it is to interview, screen, matrix index, matriculate, and hire a new guard.

Life's cheap in the Sixth World, but it's not as cheap as rent.

[ornot]

Possible, but usually they would have to exchange it too often to be economically viable.

Huh? I assume you're talking about them getting shot up, and the armour getting damaged...

I imagine they could get it repaired reasonably easily. I'd be surprised if a security corp didn't have an armourer on hand to repair the corp issued armour, who could be persuaded to do a cut price personal job. I don't want to go too far second guessing the financial system in 2071, but realistically the guards could claim repairs as expenses, much as they could claim health care if a wound got through. They might even get a tax rebate, as if the system is remotely similar to today, body armour would count as tax deductible...

If armour cannot be repaired, and corpsec are being shot on a nightly basis, and they are forced to bear the full burden of the cost, it might not be financially viable, but equally it makes it pretty hard to be financially viable for runners.

[ElFenrir]

That's how I was thinking. I mean, while I might not give the rent-a-cop at the mall FFBA(unless that was his only armor), or the Guy at the Door checking the logbook might not have it, but anyone of at least a LITTLE rank, if it's not supplied, can drop, say, the 900 nuyen on a set that will probably last them awhile. While shadowruns do happen, i doubt a corp facility gets hit *every* night of the year.

[Fuchs]

And no matter how you turn it, it's more economically viable to prevent injuries than to treat it. FFBA could be the difference betwene knocked out and dead, or knocked out and standing. If someone has to keep replacing the set then at least he's still alive to do so - which is inherently more viable than being dead.

Even for a corp that skimps on medical, having to retrain a security guard with some rank is more expensive than to spring for FFBA.

And I believe that it will be the norm in SR for many clothes to be manufactured "tailor made" for customers, or at least customised for customers in the shop or online.

[DocTaotsu]

And if a facility is getting hit every night you better believe they'll either shut down and move (after awhile there really isn't anything worth stealing, and thus nothing worth selling) or at the very least, step up their security (Ares Alpha's and corpsec armor for everyone! And mages! Lots of mages)

Now... a mall cop might have it... if he's: The Legendary Mall Ninja

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If armour cannot be repaired, and corpsec are being shot on a nightly basis, and they are forced to bear the full burden of the cost, it might not be financially viable, but equally it makes it pretty hard to be financially viable for runners.

You can't really repair armor (nanotech/magic aside, which costs more than bying a new one), just replace it.

The thing is, runners usually earn way more than grunts.
Even if FFBA needs to replaced once in a year, that's quite a sum for somebody barely managing to keep up a middle lifestyle.

And no matter how you turn it, it's more economically viable to prevent injuries than to treat it.

That's why soldiers get the best protective gear issued, right? Just, they don't.

And I believe that it will be the norm in SR for many clothes to be manufactured "tailor made" for customers, or at least customised for customers in the shop or online.

Just the 'customized' stuff isn't, or there would be no optional rules with price increase for it.

[Tobias]

Now... a mall cop might have it... if he's: The Legendary Mall Ninja

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Wow slightly off-topic but wow thats funny, caused me to burst out laughing at customers over the phone.

Regarding nerfing something its basically just a group consensus if something seems overpowered we may nerf it. Never really had a problem with it however I am the only one at the moment in the game i'm running with Arsenal so can't say about the FFBA issue.

[quentra]

Dude, where can I find a job like that?

[ornot]

And if a facility is getting hit every night you better believe they'll either shut down and move (after awhile there really isn't anything worth stealing, and thus nothing worth selling) or at the very least, step up their security (Ares Alpha's and corpsec armor for everyone! And mages! Lots of mages)

Now... a mall cop might have it... if he's: The Legendary Mall Ninja

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hehehe.

Very funny, and not a little bit disturbing. See, this is why many folk think people really into guns are strange.

[masterofm]

The Domino Effect might not be the term you want to associate nerfs with. Yes there is a thing about balance in a game setting that will almost be impossible to achieve, but then again why does it really apply to SR as a whole? SR is not an MMO, or a strategy game (where you can see game balancing issues really come into play) so why is it an issue? Everything in the game is always up to the GM in the end, or if you have a good group of players you can have group decisions.

The bigger problem besides dice creeping with FFBA, the social toys, and weapons like Troll bows is that it creates an escalation in the game which makes it harder to challenge the Shadowrunning team while at the same time more likely to kill them (unless you only let the opposition have them and thats no fun either.) What if as a GM you are giving a team low end scenarios where they are taking on street gangs and the shadowrunners are packing 24-34 armor? It's kind of like why even bother setting up the run if you know there is going to be no challenge and therefor no fun. As a GM it is hard to create a setting that is both challenging and fun, while at the same time you don't have to set up each run with a good chance that it will kill 50% of the team.

If I was to GM and I asked myself what could take a troll bow shot and still come on strong? The answer is if I sent something like that at my group it would probably kill most of the party, or I would have to just send mobs of guys at the party for every single encounter. That means constantly throwing dice and involving the party in long drawn out combat. As a GM I don't find that fun, and I doubt the people I would play with would find it fun either. When I look at a rule I try to look at if it is the fun or not. Would it make the game fun to have that item or character in the game? If not then disregard.

[toturi]

The Domino Effect might not be the term you want to associate nerfs with. Yes there is a thing about balance in a game setting that will almost be impossible to achieve, but then again why does it really apply to SR as a whole? SR is not an MMO, or a strategy game (where you can see game balancing issues really come into play) so why is it an issue? Everything in the game is always up to the GM in the end, or if you have a good group of players you can have group decisions.

The bigger problem besides dice creeping with FFBA, the social toys, and weapons like Troll bows is that it creates an escalation in the game which makes it harder to challenge the Shadowrunning team while at the same time more likely to kill them (unless you only let the opposition have them and thats no fun either.) What if as a GM you are giving a team low end scenarios where they are taking on street gangs and the shadowrunners are packing 24-34 armor? It's kind of like why even bother setting up the run if you know there is going to be no challenge and therefor no fun. As a GM it is hard to create a setting that is both challenging and fun, while at the same time you don't have to set up each run with a good chance that it will kill 50% of the team.

If I was to GM and I asked myself what could take a troll bow shot and still come on strong? The answer is if I sent something like that at my group it would probably kill most of the party, or I would have to just send mobs of guys at the party for every single encounter. That means constantly throwing dice and involving the party in long drawn out combat. As a GM I don't find that fun, and I doubt the people I would play with would find it fun either. When I look at a rule I try to look at if it is the fun or not. Would it make the game fun to have that item or character in the game? If not then disregard.

Precisely and any good shadowrunner and any well-made shadowrunner team should expect things to be no challenge. If your players are going to be playing professionals who stack all the odds on their end, then it should be no fun, not exciting and not a challenge, but sometimes things don't go your way and that's when all that extra "no fun" dice pools come in. As a GM I always tell my players that if they want to play professionals, "fun" is not on the books, you don't go looking for "fun", do it right and it is not any more challenging than SWAT against punks. Sometimes, just sometimes, shit happens, something goes wrong, then that's when it gets exciting, but you do not go looking for excitement.

Why does it affect SR as a whole? Because as much as each game is the province of the GM and his players, the forums also exerts influence. And the setting of SR as a whole, as much as you wish it not be so, is the domain of the people who write the books, the same people who write the rules that give you the dice pool inflations.

[Larme]

If you nerf things for a vague reason like "it will cause escalation," it never ends. That's what we're saying. If you just go on a theoretical concept like that, without playtesting it, there's any number of things that could "cause escalation," and once you nerf one you'll find yourself nerfing them all, and then you'll find yourself nerfing new ones all the time as whenever you nerf one kind of escalation, the players will find a new one you didn't expect. It's possible to limit it, but it's also possible to get yourself on a slippery slope that ends up with your game no better than if you left it alone in the first place.

[Fuchs]

Some games (like mine) are currently fine. Any addition to them, therefore, has to be judged before allowed in, since it may wreck the fun of the game.

And it doesn't really need a day-long playtest to see that something that just adds more dice to everyone, and makes combat last longer, is not fun for a group who doesn't want more dice to begin with, and doesn't exactly focus on combat either.

[ArkonC]

Precisely and any good shadowrunner and any well-made shadowrunner team should expect things to be no challenge. If your players are going to be playing professionals who stack all the odds on their end, then it should be no fun, not exciting and not a challenge, but sometimes things don't go your way and that's when all that extra "no fun" dice pools come in. As a GM I always tell my players that if they want to play professionals, "fun" is not on the books, you don't go looking for "fun", do it right and it is not any more challenging than SWAT against punks. Sometimes, just sometimes, shit happens, something goes wrong, then that's when it gets exciting, but you do not go looking for excitement.

I'm not sure I agree with you here...
Our SR team has evolved from some people working together into quite professional team and it's a lot more fun than just playing a bunch of rabble. You see, our opposition is also professional, there were no punks guarding the Ares weapons research facility last run. The run took us about 5 hours real time, about an hour was legwork, getting the layout and security info on the place, checking up on the johnson that hired us, all that stuff. The actual run into the facility took less than an hour, the rest of the time was spent planning, replanning, creating contingency plans and the run went like a charm, not a single shot was fired, not a single person hurt. Me, playing the face with no combat skills at all, I didn't even join them into the facility, I waited in the car and I had a blast...
We didn't expect it to be no challenge, in fact, it was a challenge, with all the planning...
Yes, runs that go FUBAR can be fun, but I love it when a plan comes together, much more gratifying than being able to shoot your way out of trouble...
Different strokes for different people, I guess...

[masterofm]

I want a game to be fun as a player and as a GM. Letting every character have their moment, making the run challenging, having a few twists and turns to keep the players on their toes, and creating seamless transitions from one form of scene to another. That to me is fun. In order to fit these concepts I find that having FFBA, and troll bows create a problem at least for me when trying to make the game fun for everyone. GMing is hard, and if there is something that makes the game more fun (by nerfing or boosting a certain something) then why not? In a game you don't go looking for fun, but you want to have fun. If the fun is finding the perfect plan then have at it.

Fine some people like pushing the "I win" button, and thats fine if you want or expect to play the game that way. All I was saying is that people like me, when looking at the situation from both sides there are some areas of the game that just need tweaking. There are very few things that our group has nerfed, but quite a few character concepts have been rejected. For instance we played around with the matrix, and since after a while we realized it just wasn't all that fun we decided to throw in an NPC character that just did all that mucky muck on the side so the team didn't have to deal with it.

I find that the group that I play with is the best table top group I have ever played with. We found a rough sort of balance with the characters we have, and many of the little house rules and nerfs we made were to keep the game fun. It was just my 2 cents, but hey you do what you want. What is fun for me is not fun for everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Shiloh]

Now... a mall cop might have it... if he's: The Legendary Mall Ninja

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Wow. What a superb bit of trolling. Though it does actually set up a potentially amusing low-power SR scenario, with the PCs being rentacops in a mall facing all kinds of threats from paedophiles to .50cal sawn-off-toting Humanis goons... Running corporate raids against rival malls, extracting high-flying managers from enemy corps... Might be a laugh.

[toturi]

I'm not sure I agree with you here...
Our SR team has evolved from some people working together into quite professional team and it's a lot more fun than just playing a bunch of rabble. You see, our opposition is also professional, there were no punks guarding the Ares weapons research facility last run. The run took us about 5 hours real time, about an hour was legwork, getting the layout and security info on the place, checking up on the johnson that hired us, all that stuff. The actual run into the facility took less than an hour, the rest of the time was spent planning, replanning, creating contingency plans and the run went like a charm, not a single shot was fired, not a single person hurt. Me, playing the face with no combat skills at all, I didn't even join them into the facility, I waited in the car and I had a blast...
We didn't expect it to be no challenge, in fact, it was a challenge, with all the planning...
Yes, runs that go FUBAR can be fun, but I love it when a plan comes together, much more gratifying than being able to shoot your way out of trouble...
Different strokes for different people, I guess...

Yes, and this is why you'd want that massive dice pool. I am not talking only about combat dice, but dice pools in general. When running the legwork, you want more dice to find out more. Getting the layout and security, you want more dice, to find out more and to make sure word doesn't leak that you are interested. Getting in, you want more dice... Planning, you should want more dice, but usually the GM would prefer you to "roleplay", so maybe there's your challenge, but realistically(in the sense that whatever happens in the game world is governed by the game mechanics) your dice should decide whether your plan was good or bad and you'd want more dice for that too. You don't necessarily require more dice, but you'd want more dice anyway. Your plan should come together when you have the necessary amount of hits/successes/etc; if not, well, maybe you should have bought more dice then. And when you don't have the requisite number of successes for a smooth run, then that's when your combat dice comes into play and hopefully you brought more dice than the NPC did.

[ornot]

Wow. What a superb bit of trolling. Though it does actually set up a potentially amusing low-power SR scenario, with the PCs being rentacops in a mall facing all kinds of threats from paedophiles to .50cal sawn-off-toting Humanis goons... Running corporate raids against rival malls, extracting high-flying managers from enemy corps... Might be a laugh.

What a genius idea! And people on the matrix would laugh at the PCs continually.