A.I PCs, Now we mobe on to stating and testing. Options

[Dumori]

so so far
max mental stats 12 min 6
max resinonce 12 min 6
treat as technomancer
no physical stats can learn physical skills but at 2 times the cost

A.I powers low cost adept like powers that have the memory and skill enhancements such a the 3d memory one etc (current list of powers below). 1 pp to start with can buy more pp for 10 BP and after gen new rating times 2 karma up to resinonce/4.

[ Spoiler ]

A.I powers low cost adept powers that have the memory and skill enhancements such a the 3d memory one etc. 1 pp to start with can buy more pp after gen up to resinonce/3 new rating time 2 karma.

ok listing A.I modifecations (powers):
Analytics
Cost: .25 per level
Multi-Tasking
Cost: .5
and some of my own:
Emerson
Cost: 2.5
the A.I is so emersed in the matrix act has hot sim Excluding the 3IP they get from being technomancers
Sim reading
cost: .25
can read and watch Sim recording and live feeds from simrigs


Matrix enterty. Only takes matrix damage on a crash the A.I is "dead" unless medic is used on them with in willpower X2 hours.

[ Spoiler ]

was Only takes matrix damage

can use sprites one them selves as if a program.
starts with Three-Dimensional Memory and Eidetic Sense Memory equivelents.
Currently 150 BP cost made by adding up all the positive and rounding off minus a few BP for the drawbacks A.Is have.

Please give feed back and opinions on the idea will update the first post with new changes using spoiler tags to hid the old ideas after amendments.

[WeaverMount]

In the last thread people were talking about an AI having a only a stun track. It would not even have this. If you want really nitty gritty mechanics I would say that the A.I. itself is just a program that can have an avatar like any person. When a person would take any damage from the matrix the A.I. take Matrix damage. When the Matrix condition monitor is filled the program is crashed. I think combinations of a save-state and re-root would allow the AI to come back. To handle this I would just use regular overflow rules.

[Jaid]

not a huge fan of the adept powers thing personally. don't see why they would need them... anything the AI can perceive can be recorded, and it has an arbitrarily large amount of storage space to hold all that data. why would it need 3-d memory when it can just take a trid picture of everything it ever sees, store it, and go back to analyse it later.

[Dumori]

@ Jaid
the 3d and sensory memory options are there represent this in all ready existing rules. but yeah ill change it so they just have these.

@ WeaverMount
Yeah i think ill do that but a stun tack might be need other wise you've got a black IC inumme hacker

[Jaid]

there's nothing wrong with a hacker immune to black IC. or what did you think happens when someone hacks from AR and is hit by black IC?

[Nightwalker450]

Matrix track might be a better idea, since I don't think Sprites can be hit by Black IC either. So just having a matrix track would probably be better. (Reduced to a single track is going to hit them hard enough already)

[WeaverMount]

Oh something else just occured to me. You will have to have some way to handle the "Doctor Smith" issue. I gentleman's agreement is likely to be enough. Just make sure you hammer out expectation around the medic program.

[Dumori]

Well ill get round to editing the first post in a bit.

So I've deiced ill make it so each pp cost 10bp and write up a list of new and adapted A.I Modifications (powers).
I need the minimum for each stat i was think round about 3-4.
@WeaverMount:
the "Doctor Smith" issue? What do you mean the A.I being immortal or just copying its self? Medic means that you cant do any matrix actions thing wile its running but u can still think and may be able to moneter and communicate with your team.

there's nothing wrong with a hacker immune to black IC. or what did you think happens when someone hacks from AR and is hit by black IC?

Good point but with a high init and three IPs that one of the things that will make A.I cost a bomb.

[Jaid]

@WeaverMount:
the "Doctor Smith" issue? What do you mean the A.I being immortal or just copying its self? Medic means that you cant do any matrix actions thing wile its running but u can still think and may be able to moneter and communicate with your team.

simply put: imagine you have an AI who has (somehow or other) gained control of 3 rating 3 commlinks with 3 rating 3 agents and 3 rating 3 medic programs. this will be a very small scale, low-rating example just for illustrative purposes.

now then, imagine that the AI has it's persona in two nodes (should be possible, a normal hacker can do this). let us further suppose that in one of those nodes (a heavily guarded node ruled over with an iron fist by said AI, with a veritable glacier to get through if you want in, more specifically), the three agent programs are just hanging around, waiting for the AI to take matrix damage. immediately after receiving matrix damage, all 3 agent programs then immediately proceed to use medic on the AI's persona, which means the AI basically has regeneration of around 6 boxes for 3 IPs out of every 4.

now imagine we don't hold back at all: pretend there are 10 rating 5 agents on rating 5 commlinks with rating 5 medic programs, each capable of healing (on average) 3.3 boxes of matrix damage, 3 IPs out of every 4 (bearing in mind, btw, that many things won't have said 4th IP). they all hold their actions all the time until the AI is damaged, and then as many as are needed to repair fully use their actions to repair the AI. you basically have an AI that, if you don't 1-shot the blasted thing, is just simply never going to die. and this can go on to more-or-less infinite levels... as many commlinks as you can subvert is how many agents you can have repairing the AI's code with medic programs.

that's the doctor smith problem.

[Jaid]

Well ill get round to editing the first post in a bit.

So I've deiced ill make it so each pp cost 10bp and write up a list of new and adapted A.I Modifications (powers).
I need the minimum for each stat i was think round about 3-4.
@WeaverMount:
the "Doctor Smith" issue? What do you mean the A.I being immortal or just copying its self? Medic means that you cant do any matrix actions thing wile its running but u can still think and may be able to moneter and communicate with your team.


Good point but with a high init and three IPs that one of the things that will make A.I cost a bomb.

why? someone focused on AR hacking can relatively easily get 3 IPs, and can still technically be using DNI to control his persona in AR.

heck, if you want to get really technical (and basically violate the rules in a horrible, sick, evil way by ignoring common sense in favor of blindly following the RAW for no good reason) you can *technically* remotely control an agent just like you can a drone. (note: i have a sneaking suspicion that just about any GM will drop a formerly orbital cow on you if you try to do this).

(and just because i'm sure someone will want to see the exact quote that proves the above technicality, here you go:)

You can control all sorts of Matrix-enabled devices remotely through the Matrix, from simple automatic security doors and elevators to drones and agents...

[edit] emphasis mine, of course.[/edit]

(and yes, like i said above, i am fully aware of the fact that this is likely an error, and furthermore i don't support this interpretation of the rules in any way. i merely am pointing out that it is a technical possibility if you happen to have an exceptionally spineless GM and a player who could probably best be described as a munchkin).

This post has been edited by Jaid: Apr 9 2008, 09:09 PM

[Dumori]

simply put: imagine you have an AI who has (somehow or other) gained control of 3 rating 3 commlinks with 3 rating 3 agents and 3 rating 3 medic programs. this will be a very small scale, low-rating example just for illustrative purposes.

now then, imagine that the AI has it's persona in two nodes (should be possible, a normal hacker can do this). let us further suppose that in one of those nodes (a heavily guarded node ruled over with an iron fist by said AI, with a veritable glacier to get through if you want in, more specifically), the three agent programs are just hanging around, waiting for the AI to take matrix damage. immediately after receiving matrix damage, all 3 agent programs then immediately proceed to use medic on the AI's persona, which means the AI basically has regeneration of around 6 boxes for 3 IPs out of every 4.

now imagine we don't hold back at all: pretend there are 10 rating 5 agents on rating 5 commlinks with rating 5 medic programs, each capable of healing (on average) 3.3 boxes of matrix damage, 3 IPs out of every 4 (bearing in mind, btw, that many things won't have said 4th IP). they all hold their actions all the time until the AI is damaged, and then as many as are needed to repair fully use their actions to repair the AI. you basically have an AI that, if you don't 1-shot the blasted thing, is just simply never going to die. and this can go on to more-or-less infinite levels... as many commlinks as you can subvert is how many agents you can have repairing the AI's code with medic programs.

that's the doctor smith problem.

Well the point that using the medic program stops what ever is being heal form taking actions means you get a frozen unkillable A.I. But i do think that this could easily be stopped with more than one attacker say the oppising hack calles up some IC or combat agents then you get dead agents and a dead A.I.

[Jaid]

Well the point that using the medic program stops what ever is being heal form taking actions means you get a frozen unkillable A.I. But i do think that this could easily be stopped with more than one attacker say the oppising hack calles up some IC or combat agents then you get dead agents and a dead A.I.

medic doesn't freeze anything.

though i did remember one thing wrong: it's a test that takes 1 combat turn to complete. still, that just means you need to subvert 3 times as many commlinks, and just have the agents start the action in waves, constantly, whether you need it or not.

[Dumori]

medic doesn't freeze anything.

you are right I wounder where I read this.

ok listing A.I modifecations (powers):
Analytics
Cost: .25 per level
Eidetic Sense Memory
Cost: .5
Linguistics
Cost: .25
Multi-Tasking
Cost: .5
Three-Dimensional Memory
Cost: .5
and some of my own:
Emerson
Cost: 1
the A.I is so emersed in the matrix act has hot sim Excluding the 3IP they get from being technomancers
Skillwire usage
Cost: 1
Can load them selves in to skill wires to interact with meatspace. max DP limited by the skill wires rating (2Xrating)
Sim reading
cost: .25
can read and watch Sim recording and live feeds from simrigs


As always if you think a power over or underpiced or you have ideas for your own or why i shouldn't be there please tell me as I've not yet play tested any thing so far.

[WeaverMount]

you are right I wounder where I read this.

ok listing A.I modifecations (powers):
Analytics
Cost: .25 per level
Eidetic Sense Memory -- Should be free logically as they can simply write there memory to ... memory
Cost: .5
Linguistics Linguasofts work as Automatic Translators w/o DNI. An AI could have any of them
Cost: .25
Multi-Tasking
Cost: .5
Three-Dimensional Memory --Again should be automatic
Cost: .5
and some of my own:
Emerson
Cost: 1
the A.I is so emersed in the matrix act has hot sim Excluding the 3IP they get from being technomancers --This effectively +2 to EVERYTHING
Skillwire usage
Cost: 1
Can load them selves in to skill wires to interact with meatspace. max DP limited by the skill wires rating (2Xrating) --Fluff says no. If skill wires can do this then the setting would have metahuman biodrones for decades
Sim reading
cost: .25
can read and watch Sim recording and live feeds from simrigs


As always if you think a power over or underpiced or you have ideas for your own or why i shouldn't be there please tell me as I've not yet play tested any thing so far.

[Dumori]

humm lol could you spoffe skillwires? It just because well other than buying a full cyborg body (arkward to really uses) im going to have no way to manipulate the outside world on a run looks like jar head it is for that then. uping the cost on Emerson to 3 could work.
ill make the memory ones auto

[Jaid]

a normal drone would be a perfectly fine way for an AI to interface with the meatworld. if nothing else, they can remotely control (even if they cannot operate a vehicle in the same way a drone pilot can).

[Dumori]

yeah but not really very well as a multi perpurse tool. I'll need a few drops for earth skill but a cyborg or two would be very useful for fixing and building stuff with a max of 12 logic I could with a lucky role fox a total wreak of a car in a hour. So I want to cache in on my stupid DP. Emerson would mane plus 2 no matter what from fixing a car to remotely controlong a missle but a rigger could do the same so not game braking.

[Dumori]

bumping after edits to main post.

[Dumori]

bumping after edits to main post.

[Nightwalker450]

medic doesn't freeze anything.

though i did remember one thing wrong: it's a test that takes 1 combat turn to complete. still, that just means you need to subvert 3 times as many commlinks, and just have the agents start the action in waves, constantly, whether you need it or not.

p. 219 Repair Icon [4]
Add the following line to the end of the first paragraph:
An icon may not take any other action (in any node)
while it is being repaired.

So yes you have a frozen AI, that will heal one point of damage per combat turn. Where a simsense boosted hacker can throw 2 attacks at both the AI and the agent performing medic per combat turn.

[Dumori]

Ah i knew i read that but didn't think to look in the Erratta. That stops "agent smithing" Well we need a BP cost for the A.I and then ill make a few Runners and try to play test.

<Edit>
Add Bp cost of 150 to frist post as i think that would work.

[Jaid]

So yes you have a frozen AI, that will heal one point of damage per combat turn. Where a simsense boosted hacker can throw 2 attacks at both the AI and the agent performing medic per combat turn.

well, it can still repair an arbitrarily large amount of damage every turn actually.

though you are right, per the latest errata at least you can no longer keep acting (though of course if you have previously existing sprites or some such thing, they may or may not already be under orders to protect you)

[Dumori]

that may happen but at lest the controller can't do any thing.

Any any one up to running some play tests?

I'm making a few charictors and using the hacker and technomancer from the BBB to test for balance. Of cause A.Is are up to the GM.

[Jaid]

that may happen but at lest the controller can't do any thing.

Any any one up to running some play tests?

I'm making a few charictors and using the hacker and technomancer from the BBB to test for balance. Of cause A.Is are up to the GM.

that's a terrible idea.

it's hard to really severely screw up a hacker (buy the best programs commlink you can buy, make sure you have a few skills at a decent level, and you're good to go).

it's really easy to severely screw up a technomancer, and let me tell you, the TM archetype in the main rule book is really, really badly screwed up. like, i could probably make a 320 BP hacker with a chargen availability cap of 8 and still kick the crud out of it.

[Dumori]

Yes i know there not the best runners but I dont really have the time to make and play test 3 PCs. But I only wanted to compaire the A.I to chars in the BBB. But maybe I'll just wait till I have more free time.