Clarification about Clairvoyance Spell, Is this spell to powerful? Options

[WhiteWolf]

I was running a little adventure not to long ago and I had a character whip out the spell Clairvoyance on me. Can anyone explain this spell a little better than the SR4? The way I am reading the spell is a person can:

1) Cast it on anyone (Range: T)
2) Move the spell's "visual point" around the range of the spell (much like a Warlock's Eye in the game World of Warcraft)
3) Destination does not have to be Line of Sight (LoS) (spell is Directional)

So with these thoughts in mind a person could cast the spell on them, or their target, and then move the visual point to scout out a building or area and report to the team what they saw. Another scenario would be to pick a point in the sky and use it to look down on a field of battle (limited by the range).

Basically can the spell be casted anywhere and then moved to any location allowing the characters to use the spell as a scouting tool?

Clairvoyance Spell Data: (click on the spoiler to view the data)

[ Spoiler ]

Clairvoyance (Passive, Directional)
Type: M * Range: T * Duration: S * DV: (F/2)-1
The subject can see distant scenes as if physically present at a chosen point within the sensory range of the spell. The "visual point" may be moved to any other point within range of the spell. The subject cannot use normal vision or astral perception while using it. This spell does not translate sound, only vision. Any augmented vision possessed by the subject does not function through this spell, nor does astral perception. Magicians cannot use clairvoyance to target others with spells.

[Jaid]

well, i assume you're talking about extended clairvoyance, first of all (regular clairvoyance has incredibly poor range).

and secondly, it's pretty good, but for most important places there should be warding involved. or background count. or whatever.

otherwise, yes... it is a really good spell, that lets you scout very effectively.

[DedBob]

...otherwise, yes... it is a really good spell, that lets you scout very effectively.

Woot!

[Sma]

How is a spell, that lets you look at places where you are not physically present, supposed to be too powerful in a world that has television ?

[Jaid]

How is a spell, that lets you look at places where you are not physically present, supposed to be too powerful in a world that has television ?

try creating an invisible camera that floats around anywhere you want (within a certain range) and broadcasts without being detectable to normal people, undetectable by machines at all, able to pass through physical barriers as if they aren't even there, soundless, perfectly stable, perfect resolution, etc.

if you have one of those, i guess clairvoyance might be unimpressive.

[MarCazm]

With the arsenal rules of indirect fire information-guided... omg

[psionghost]

The spell does have a range of touch being the subject of the spell, the target range is same as any other spell, LOS or Force x Meters in range.

[Tarantula]

The range for casting is touch. The range of the sense is limited like all the other detection spells.

[Sma]

try creating an invisible camera that floats around anywhere you want (within a certain range) and broadcasts without being detectable to normal people, undetectable by machines at all, able to pass through physical barriers as if they aren't even there, soundless, perfectly stable, perfect resolution, etc.

if you have one of those, i guess clairvoyance might be unimpressive.

Yes its sound really awesome on paper, but in play the ability to cast clairvoyance and the ability to hack cameras, or access drone footage are on par. Drones and hacking win out when sneaking into the mage's den or the bug hive (wards and background count), while clairvoyance shines if the opposition is more technically inclined. It's a good spell, but by no means overpowered.

Plus there's the fact that characters using abilities that allow them to find out stuff is awesome form a storytelling point of view, since it means that the gamemaster gets to narrate stuff which the other guys at the table get to react to in a way of their choosing. This means the story goes on and fun is had by everyone.

[Tarantula]

Whats worse is the spell in street magic that allows the mage to pick any sense for remote viewing.

[psionghost]

As in my above post, it is limited and not over powered, but i have had others use it in play test in my game and i used it as follows.

The subject of the spell is touch as normal (Person or Object) the range of the spell is equal to standard range rules as well. Force x Meters or LOS.

So say if they casted it on a person/Object then lets use for example a Table in the center of a room.

Then they could use the spell as follows, LOS from the table 360 degree's or detach from the table in travel in and view again LOS from the table's location up too a max of Force x Meters, (use force 3) so up to 3m away from the table in any direction 360 degree's as well.

But using the above in my game they suffer a -3 dice when using detached LOS for perception tests and full dice if LOS direct from object/person itself.

I justifiy this saying that using remote viewing from the subject of the spell is more straining and harder to focus.

[Tarantula]

psionghost, that is a house rule. By RAW, they can only use it in the force x meters from the target, regardless of LOS.

[Sma]

The subject of the spell gets the benefit of losing his normal vision and being able to move his POV around. So casting it on a table will do nothing.

You cast it on Achmed the adept so he can see if there's someone hiding behind that door, not so the mage casting the spell can zoom his vision around centered on Achmed.

[Fortune]

psionghost, that is a house rule. By RAW, they can only use it in the force x meters from the target, regardless of LOS.

Or Force x Magic x 10 for the extended variant.

[psionghost]

Im aware it is, but like i said is why i stated i imply a penalty too my game too look around corners etc etc, But no where does it say that it has to be a living target it only merely states that "IF" a subject has any augmented vision the mage does not gain its effects. and Clairvoyanace has always be associated with Objects not just people...

If not saying i'm right on the matter, just saying that I haven't found the rule stating you couldn't cast in on a object, And going on the general census as such...

[WeaverMount]

Ok question: How do you detect the PoV? If you cast the spell on yourself and move the PoV into a room with an astral perceiver is it possible for them to detect the PoV? they can't see the spell in your Aura because you and the spell are on the other side of a wall.

[psionghost]

Ok question: How do you detect the PoV? If you cast the spell on yourself and move the PoV into a room with an astral perceiver is it possible for them to detect the PoV? they can't see the spell in your Aura because you and the spell are on the other side of a wall.

I personal say its connected and if anyone or thing is basicly Viewing Aura or Astral Per i give them a chance to detect almost like the silver cord theory of your soul bound to your spirit like any other remote viewing operation. (In my games anyways) basicly like seeing a disturbance in the area of the viewing or knowing (by another mage) they are being watched.

And i only use that as a basis, because corp mages or other mages would or should have some defence against remote viewing operations view barriers etc or just having that feeling from atonement that they would know (if test is passed) etc or perception that something is there.

[Tarantula]

Ok question: How do you detect the PoV? If you cast the spell on yourself and move the PoV into a room with an astral perceiver is it possible for them to detect the PoV? they can't see the spell in your Aura because you and the spell are on the other side of a wall.

I'd say that the spell has an astral presence, identifiable with an assensing test.

psionghost, "If not saying i'm right on the matter, just saying that I haven't found the rule stating you couldn't cast in on a object, And going on the general census as such..."
You can cast it on the table... but that just lets the table move its POV. And since tables don't have POV's..... The spell really wouldn't do much.

[psionghost]

I'd say that the spell has an astral presence, identifiable with an assensing test.

psionghost, "If not saying i'm right on the matter, just saying that I haven't found the rule stating you couldn't cast in on a object, And going on the general census as such..."
You can cast it on the table... but that just lets the table move its POV. And since tables don't have POV's..... The spell really wouldn't do much.

True, it may not do much unless your setting up a trap, you know this person is going to be here at this time for a deal of some sort, they pump up security but not everyone has a mage to back em up so you and your crew are down the hall out of scanner range or hiding etc, while the mage is viewing the entire deal via the table.

And The POV when detached from POV from the subject acts similar to out of body experience, which is how it moves with the subjects range of the spell...

[Jaid]

True, it may not do much unless your setting up a trap, you know this person is going to be here at this time for a deal of some sort, they pump up security but not everyone has a mage to back em up so you and your crew are down the hall out of scanner range or hiding etc, while the mage is viewing the entire deal via the table.

And The POV when detached from POV from the subject acts similar to out of body experience, which is how it moves with the subjects range of the spell...

no, you don't get it at all.

the target of the spell gains the sense. read up the start of the section on detection spells. you give someone a sense (in this case, the ability to project their visual sense out to a distance of force x magic meters, x10 if the spell is extended) and they can use that sense. the range of the spell is touch because you can give this sense to someone you touch. if the mage casts the spell on someone else, the mage is unaffected. he doesn't see anything different from what he normally sees. the person he casts the spell on gets to project their vision around instead, and the mage cannot see what that person sees at all.

so if the mage casts it on a table, it does nothing. the table doesn't have any ability to process visual data, and so while it (apparently) gains vision and the ability to move it's viewpoint around, it (being an inanimate object) has no ability to process visual data, and no ability to choose to move it's viewpoint. this, of course, assumes it's a physical spell (i'm too lazy to check, but i'd be surprised if it wasn't mana).

[Tarantula]

I'm away from my books, but I'm pretty sure the subject of the spell gains the sense. Thusly, casting on a table would grant the table a clairvoyant sense, not the mage a clairvoyant sense from the table.

You're speaking more like the eyes of the pack spell, which lets the mage view from someone elses POV.

[psionghost]

no, you don't get it at all.

the target of the spell gains the sense. read up the start of the section on detection spells. you give someone a sense (in this case, the ability to project their visual sense out to a distance of force x magic meters, x10 if the spell is extended) and they can use that sense. the range of the spell is touch because you can give this sense to someone you touch. if the mage casts the spell on someone else, the mage is unaffected. he doesn't see anything different from what he normally sees. the person he casts the spell on gets to project their vision around instead, and the mage cannot see what that person sees at all.

so if the mage casts it on a table, it does nothing. the table doesn't have any ability to process visual data, and so while it (apparently) gains vision and the ability to move it's viewpoint around, it (being an inanimate object) has no ability to process visual data, and no ability to choose to move it's viewpoint. this, of course, assumes it's a physical spell (i'm too lazy to check, but i'd be surprised if it wasn't mana).

Ok I was under the impression it did since it is a passive detection spell and under passive spells, that A passive sense is simply "on" and passes along any approriate sensory input without any sort of interpretation (similiar to hearing). which then you make your test on the above chart, p.198 for futher information on the area being viewed.

Because why would i sustain a spell on someone else for them to Remote view for me if i can't see it, just cast it on myself and would be better suited to just do it myself. Again maybe im wrong but thats how it always worked in other games from my understanding. And from reading that description assumed as such here.

With the POV being able to be changed if casted on a person or object regardless of form then im looking at like if i change the POV from the person to 6 meters through a floor im no longer looking through their (eyes) clairvoyant viewing as always been regarded as an out of body expierenced centered around the object not through the object.

[Tarantula]

You cast the spell on YOURSELF if you want to be able to see via the spell. You are then able to move your POV anywhere within the range(centered on yourself), instead of having it be stuck as from where your eyes are.

You cast the spell on your samurai, he is able to see through the spell, within the range(centered on himself), though, its arguable as to who is able to control the POV (mage or samurai).

[psionghost]

I don't have street magic so is there a spell that allows you to remote view from objects/people?

If not I will just make it a house rule and work as such, as in some other games.

[WhiteWolf]

With the arsenal rules of indirect fire information-guided... omg

Awe that is pretty cool MarCazm! Nice call.

Tarantula I believe psionghost is correct in LoS. The spell is stated as being directional and the SR4 states "directional (like normal site)" (SR4 p197). Which reads line of sight to me. Force x Meters (x 10 if extended) is the distance the spell can move before fading.

Sma and psionghost bring up another point. Can you do a 360 degree turn at the Point of Vision (PoV)? The spell says directional which I am now wondering will only allow you to move its PoV forward in a straight line, so you would not be able to move through a door with it, head down the hall, hang a right, and look inside the corps room to see if they have what you are looking for.

WeaverMount, the only way you would be able to detect the PoV is to view it in Astral Space with Assessing. If you score enough hits you would be able to follow the spell back to the person who cast it. Even if they released the spell before you reached them since every spell you cast leaves a residual matter in Astral Space. How the risdual matter is viewed I believe the SR4 tells you somewhere under Awakening section. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Direction answers to your questions are:

How do you detect the PoV?

In Astral Space.

If you cast the spell on yourself and move the PoV into a room with an astral perceiver is it possible for them to detect the PoV?

Yes, there is a chance for them to perceive the spell. It would be an Assessing test, and based on the number of hits they receive would determine the amount of information the GM would give.

they can't see the spell in your Aura because you and the spell are on the other side of a wall.

Actually they can see the spell in Astral Space and if the opposer (person who did not cast the spell) makes a successfull Assessing test then they can follow it back to the person who cast it for all spells leave a residue, but even better is if the opposer has assessed you in the past then regardless of the Assessing test outcome they will still know it is you since every spell matter is like DNA and it is all made up from your matter (aka residue).