Player questions I cannot answer, atleast to their degre of need Options

[swirler]

Okay so I figure I know the SR world pretty well, but sometimes some things I just can't answer, partly because well the question, IMHO doesn't really matter, or is not a pressing issue. Some people think too much. I'm not saying that thinking is bad, I'm just saying too much focus can be distracting. Sometimes you have to just "go along with it"

Anywho my problem is this. One of my players in the game I will be starting soon says there are certain things he can't understand about the SR world. Keep in mind, his perspective on D&D and Rogues is that if they were greedy or selfish enough to be rogues they would never go anywhere near traps or dungeons because they are too dangerous.

I will post a conversation we had about his questions. Maybe someone can help me with answers for him Player: Shadowrun is going to be a very difficult place to live through criminal endeavors.

[ Spoiler ]

Player: Shadowrun is going to be a very difficult place to live through criminal endeavors.

me: well it helps to be smart about them

Player: But how would you get paid? Everything is electronic, there's no hard currency anymore. It's

all traceable.
Easily traceable.

me: there are still certified cred sticks
and its not all traceable, well not if you know what you are doing or have people who know what

they are doing

Player: They would still have logged ID tags, like vin numbers. You would need some pretty good fake

IDs, plus the accounts to go with them. Even then there are a dozen red flags that many systems would

encounter.... but then, what is law enforcement like in Shadowrun. I'm using our standards of

security which, despite a few screw-ups and the efforts of highly dedicated, one-way terrorists, is

actually pretty good at what it does.

me: the certified just means they are guaranteed worth a certain amount based on type, not linked to

accounts and no system is perfect, beecause well RL certainly isnt and a game where security is

perfect would be bopring lol

Player: The money has to come from somewhere. That means records. You won't use real information

that can be tracked unless you have no choice or you are on legitimate business.

me: there are ways around it, trust me

Player: Well, for low-level "runs" that wouldn't be a problem. But there isn't really a lot of money

in that sort of thing.

me: and corps have special accounts for shadow ops that are set up to not leave trails much the way

the government does now

Player: Right, like I said. But, the average runner doesn't have access to that sort of thing, but if

he has an account that showing an inflow of money, that means income. In the majority of cases,

income means taxes. Tax records are where they get you.

me: umm most runners are sinless sinless dont get taxed

Player: The reason that I mention all this is because, in the U.S., the black market is a cash only

industry. They don't accept anything that can leave a paper trail.

me: and SR economies dont work that way, atleast not on average I dont think tax fraud really is

handled and actually the black market is often barter. trade for trade

Player: Your assuming that tax laws haven't changed between now and then. Also, don't forget about

property taxes. Even non-citizens have to pay property taxes on the land and buildings they own in

other countries.Ummm, but what about food, water, clothing, cell-phones.... you can't really barter

for everything. If you could, we wouldn't have needed to invent money.

me: we are talking about a world that has extra-territorailty for corporations.

Player: Which would make the mega-corps independant countries. So you use international law as a

basis for communication. Which would make the mega-corps independant countries. So you use

international law as a basis for communication.

me: okay, well just so you know, I'm not going to have a cybered up Eliot Ness come breaking down

your door because you arent paying taxes on your ill gotten gains lol

Player: But... that would be kinda' awesome!

me: im not saying Lone star or whoeever isnt going top nail you, but if they do its because you

screwed up or someone ratted you out or turned on you or whatever
for them to care about your taxes would mean they have a reason to come after you in the first

place and if they have that they will have more important stuff going on

Player: I think the biggest problem I'm having with seeing how this works out is I really don't

understand the present governments that have control of what used to be the U.S.

me: in what way? you mean how pervasive is the governemnent? well governments, I mean

Player: Standards of personal and property rights, import/export regulations, speech rights, rights

to privacy, expected surveillance levels, immigration controls, border policing, standing with their

neighbors, cultural attitudes toward firearms and recreational drugs. You know, the usual. Financial

regulations and business controls should also be on that list.

me: hmm you might post on dumpshock and ask that I'll see if i have any links that might have more

info. when im not busy

Player: Oh, and level of corruption in law enforcement. That's the one I was forgetting.

me: ah. as corrupt as it is in any corporation. all law enforcement is by corp now

Player: That's problematic.

me: lone star is a private corporation hired by the government to do policing. yep depends on the

country though. In aztlan, aztech private security do the cop gig basically
Seattle also has the metroplex guard

Player: Hmmm... depending upon the level of collusion to competition this could make things a lot

easier, or it could make life a hell for a runner.

me: depends on the area, who's asking and waht its for its all subjective

Player: Well, that's the way it works now, but at the present law enforcement is a government owned

monopoly. We're talking about private organizations and all the efficiency that can bring.

me: not all corps want to cooperate with the star, take ares, they are trying to win over the

policing job for seattle away from Lone star for their own cop company "Knight Errant" so they will

take every chance to make Lone Star look ussuless especially if said runners were working for them

Player: Yeah, but at the same time Lone Star should be trying to make themselves out to be the best

in law enforcement since Moses came down from the mount. Which means they'll be spending more and

making security tighter. It would be even better if they could catch some Knight Errant runners,

'cause then they'd have dirt on them that would drive them fromt the bidding war.

me: yes, but it would be the parent corp hiring them as deniable assets. agan its a "covering your

ass" kinda thing, no trails and all that
Johnsons would have their own hackers doing away with any electronic trails

Player: Which brings me back to the question: Who thought it was a good idea to give megacorps

extr-territorial standing?

me: the supreme court if I remember right. it had to do with corporations having the right to defend

their own. the corporate court is in place to keep the corps playing nioce now, of course
basically think of it this way, the corps arent the governments because they don't want to be, the

government has to deal with sewage and stuff like that. corps only have to take care of (somewhat)

the people that work for them, and provide them services

Player: ? That's just crazy talk. Modern corporations have had the legal right to use armed guards

to protect their property for decades. They wouldn't need any extra recognition to acquire what they

already have.

me: i cant really go into the whole thing
if you read the beginging of the main book it should give you enough of an idea
you have 3rd edition dont you?

Player: No, haven't had for a while.

me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_timeline
here's the timeline it might help some the info is all right near the beginning

Player: Yeah, but it's been written by people that don't seem to understand that these rights have

been in place since the days of piracy. Companies have always had the right to defend their property.

They didn't need extra-territoriality to do it. International law already allowed for this. The only

groups that they were defenseless against were search and seizure by legitimate governments.

me: but this deals with actually killing people

Player: Like I said before.

me: 2001: The Shiawase Decision

* The Shiawase court decision establishes extraterritoriality for megacorps when a radical eco-group

called TerraFirst! attacked a Shiawase nuclear power plant. Though the attack was repelled, the

corporation used the incident to convince the Supreme Court that major multinational corporations

need the ability to protect themselves. To this end, the Supreme Court granted major companies

extraterritoriality. (TerraFirst! manages later to acquire evidence that the attack was in fact a

setup with the intent to force the courts into granting sovereignty. However, before the group can

act on said information, their headquarters is destroyed and key members killed in what is considered

to be one of the first shadowruns.)

Player: But they already had legitimate right to defend, with lethal force if need be, themselves

and their property. The govts. handed them complete autonomy for nothing.

me: but they wanted more than what they had
thats kinda the point

Player: But why were the govts. stupid enough to agree to giving private citizines that level of

autonomy? What convinced them to give up that much power?

me: they were in trouble there were alot of things going on at the time and they were stretched thin
diseases, natural disasters the truckers strike mentioned
the idea is the governments were weak and ineffectual
and most offcials were owned by corporations, much like today

Player: Okay, let's say that you have a gun, and I have a gun. Let's say that I'm an evil bastard

that will try to take everything for myself if I could, and you know it. So I come up to you and tell

you that someone is attacking me and I need the means to defend myself. So, you hand me your gun?

me: but you cant always think of it in those simple terms
but yes with the right set up it could make sense
actually had that happen to me in a game once the thing the other guy didnt know is aI had a spoare

on my back

Player: Your right, it's not that simple. The U.S. should have used military transports to get food

into New York, and everywhere else it was needed while the truckers were on strike. Then there would

have been a horrendous number of reprisals made against the organizers of the strike, etc.

me: seriously, start a thread on dumpshock and ask these question, im sure there are plenty of

people who have been in it for years and have thought about this alot who could answer your questions

better than I can

Player: But your the one that is going to GM this, so your answers are the ones I need.

me: tell you what I will think about it and get back to you

[Malicant]

Your player needs his cranium drilled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

Wow... Anyways money is usually passed through shadow accounts. Where they can launder the money and make it really difficult to trace. As well your money is usually kept in overseas accounts, or other semi-legit accounts so you won't have to pay the taxes on ill-gotten gains. Credsticks can be transferred between credsticks without ever seeing the internets at large for quite some time. Squatter and Street definately don't have taxes to pay, and even some Lower lifestyles, might not require anything than a stable account to get their money from you. (Many people manage to live in the US now and manage to avoid being flagged as "SINless") Also any of these can be put onto a Fake SIN and made harder to trace.

As to the extra-territorality I believe it was so they could raise their own private armies. Otherwise they are very limited in what they can have for security, but to actually have their own armed military force that is HIGHLY illeagle in modern day. So basically they went from having guns, to having artillary not just gaining a second gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

EDIT: And a cranium drill could help as well, I second that.

[Ed_209a]

Sometimes you have to just "go along with it"

The only way I can get my brain around it is that somehow, forensic science stalled around 1995, while biotech in general advanced by leaps and bounds. Similarly, law enforcement is incompetent when they aren't apathetic, and somehow this didn't lead to a general breakdown in civil order.

The game would be so tedious if you had to account for every skin flake, microdroplet of blood, and shadowy transaction.

[Prime Mover]

Wow hehe first off I'll 3rd the drill idea. Money bits been covered in post above, black market and black op certified cred is'nt really money its a promise for money, like bearer bonds. (whoever has them owns them)

Onto military helping with transport during upheavals. Did you see what happened in New Orleans, now imagine a 4th of world dead or dieing, people turning into metahumans, return of magic, etc.... Now how bad was NO screwed up, imagine that kind of chaos in hundreds,thousands of cities. Govt was falling apart under the weight of repeated nationwide crisis and disaster. Giving the corps autonomy took some of strain off of Govt's shoulders giving corps responsibility for there employees and home turf.

[Blade]

I don't think extraterritoriality really was something that appeared overnight, same with corporate armies.

The way I see it, the Seretech decision was just a discreet court decision (probably heavily influenced by corporate lobbies) that allowed corporations a limited use of force on the U.S.A territory, in some circumstances. It wasn't a license to have a full blown army and use it at will, but a first and definite step in that direction.

[DTFarstar]

Yeah, stress that in todays world the government might look askance at a corp that was stockpiling heavy munitions and lethal only weapons for it's highly(greater than army) trained security force when all that is going on is some research. I mean, yeah, you can have heavy security at a nuclear plant, but they wanted nuclear plant security everywhere and insane security at the nuclear plant. I mean at a nuclear plant today, I could see top level security at most being some guys in body armor with SMGs or maybe an assault rifle or three in a locked case. They want turret mounted weapons, shoot on site for any non-authorized personnel, biological warfare releasable through the vents, and everything else you can think of. I think the main reason they gave them extra-territoriality is for two reasons. The first being that the governments had enough problems and were incapable of really enforcing anything they did say if they tried to restrict the corps. The second being the corps were like "Listen, we are doing this and no we don't give a damn what you say." So, the governments basically had 3 choices, 1. Try to stop them, and with everything else going on they just did not have the manpower. 2. Approve it and take the bad PR for changing policy especially to something this extreme. 3. Give them autonomy so as to distance yourself politically from the fallout of the potential innocent slaughter from all those munitions. They chose to distance themselves rather than looking ineffectual or wishy-washy.

That is how I see it.

Chris

[Wounded Ronin]

The only way I can get my brain around it is that somehow, forensic science stalled around 1995, while biotech in general advanced by leaps and bounds. Similarly, law enforcement is incompetent when they aren't apathetic, and somehow this didn't lead to a general breakdown in civil order.

The game would be so tedious if you had to account for every skin flake, microdroplet of blood, and shadowy transaction.

I'd just tell the player that the game takes place in the 80s. Done.

[thiagão]

I think law enforcement in SR is not much diferent then is nowdays in here in Brazil. There's a mixture of imcopetence,lazyness, lack of resources and corruption, so they don´t give a damn if a kid in the barrens got killed or is selling drugs, but if he does that kind of shit in a rich area, they tend get a lot more resourceful and competent, specially if the media makes them look bad. So I guess in SR the police, if they want cacht a shadowrunner, will trace certified credsticks or use ritual sorcery to track down a suspect, but unless you commit a atrocity or atract a public autcry for your arrest (or death), you won´t get much heat from the cops.

[DireRadiant]

Make a deal. If the player can explain why all the nonsensical stuff of the real world today is happening as entirely reasonable to you, then you get to explain your RPG world the same way to him.

[cndblank]

On the forensics front, if you don't have fingerprints or DNA on record then you don't have much unless you have enough to use ritual sorcery.

I also let Bio Klean answer most of the fornesics questions.

And Bio Klean is the runners friend.

It takes nothing to rig the spraycan to act like a bug bomb and just keep spraying.

Someone gets hit then you stop the bleeding and drop a can.

By the time security gets some blood samples, they will be worthless.



Extraterritoriality means if you get caught then they can use their laws. It also means what is a crime in corp territory might not raise an eyebrow out side it.

It also means every time you cross a border then they have that much more paperwork if they want to get full cooperation from the local security.

Then it gets in to how good are relations between the local cops and other corporations. I mean if they arrest someone for some thing and it turns out that a Corp wants them extradite them then that is one thing. Also much of police work has been privatized and is little more than security guards so if it didn't happen on their turf then they are not going to spend much time hunting.

I wonder how much time Lone Star spends hunting perps wanted by Ares. Likely just enough to make it look good. I'm sure a Corp could "ask" a mayor or police chief to give it a priority but how much are the actual beat cop is going to worry about it. Especially when they know from experience that the Corp does very little to help them out. And is not above shielding their most valuable employees from investigation. The local police force also has to know that a megacorp can whip up any evidence they want. Might make them a little jaundice bout running down a Corp's perp.

The other big question is how much is the Corp going to want to own up to the fact someone just successfully ran them and got a way with something hot.

[swirler]

thanks all for your suggestions
especially the cranial drill
lol
jk!

the thing about the player as a person is, some times he has this dogged determination that things have to "make sense" to a very narrow and specific view about what is real and what is and is not possible. Then in the next breath talk about something that is both fictitious and unbelievable as if it's perfectly fine.

[MarCazm]

If the player argues to much, let him run the game so he can see how it is on the "other side".

Maybe he quits babblin' and accept the rules as they are instead of makin' it to much complicated to play with.

Some don't see the difference between reality and fiction.

[swirler]

The other big question is how much is the Corp going to want to own up to the fact someone just successfully ran them and got a way with something hot.

good point, forgot about that

[swirler]

If the player argues to much, let him run the game so he can see how it is on the "other side".

Maybe he quits babblin' and accept the rules as they are instead of makin' it to much complicated to play with.

Some don't see the difference between reality and fiction.

naw it wouldn't matter, I've played in his games.

[nathanross]

There are a number of futuristic assumptions that Shadowrun fluff makes that may not always be true or common sense.

Extraterritoriality and the Japanacorps:
In the 80s there was a reverance and fear of the Japanese corporations that has all but disappeared since the Japanese bubble burst. They are still a very powerful economic force, but not at all like it was at the end of the 80s. Extraterritoriality is also something that is the foundation of the SR: Corporations have the same power of governments. It is because of the megacorps that we are shadowrunners. Simple as that. Why it all happened or whether is should have happened or not is completely irrelevant.

Crime and Law Enforcement:
Lone Star is a corporation. This means its primary focus is not on the safety and security of those it protects, their safety is merely a result. Lone Stars number 1 is it's own bottom line. The original reason that Lone Star was hired was to cut costs, not because they are better (though they very well may be). The Lone Star/Knight Errant battle for the Metroplex law enforcement contract may motivate them a bit more, but it wont change things too much. If the runners make too big a splash and get too high a public awareness, though, the Star and K-E both will pull out all the stops to put them behind bars just for the PR it would bring.

Money:
This is something that is completely ignored in SR just because it would be a huge headache to always keep track of where you keep it. Some aspects to consider:

• Certified Credsticks: electronic cahsiers check, can be used like cash a little at a time. Keep em on a necklace around your neck or under your mattress (aka Self banking)
• Shadow banks: the other option. You can give your money to any syndicate to keep safe and or launder, but it will cost at least 10% of whatever you earn. Also, don't backstab your banker as they have all your money.
• Legit: sure, if you have a front company or some fake source of income, you can keep your goods at a normal bank, and pay taxes on it.
• Property: Rent/Squat/Steal. You can try and go legit, but we runners usually just rent an apartment under a fake SIN in a low end part of town where you aren't hassled often. Of course, there is always the lawless barrens to set up a high end squat in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You must also remember that the most important thing about Shadowrun is the shadows. We have employment because we are skilled and necessary as deniable assets. We are the designated pawns in a constant battle between corporations/syndicates/dragons/metaplanar entities/you name it. If they have money, we will do what they need done without them having to get their hands dirty. They NEED us. We exist within the cracks that they create. We run through the shadows they cast. We are Shadowrunners!

[masterofm]

If he wants to make sense of magic and people turning into crazy creatures? I mean why not try and make sense of the biological structure of giants in D&D? I mean theoretically any mammal that large would be unable to move when on land. Sometimes you just have to accept it.

For one thing your player has not read about the history of the game so he gets a minus right there. You can launder electronic money just as easily as you can launder paper money. I'm sorry there is a lot of problems that people are experiencing with electronic fraud. Personally I think if he does not read the history he does not get to comment or ask questions. *edit* Has your friend ever herd of FTZ/EPZ's? I think it's a pretty good real world situation where companies get a warm and fuzzy feeling when they hear it (Free trade zone/Export processing zone.) *edit*

For any questions he has just answer "MAGIC." Make sure you say it really loud and then if he tries to say anything just say "MAGIC" again until he either stops asking questions, or goes and reads the history of the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cheops]

The main reason why a Corporation would want extraterritoriality is not for protection -- it's for tax and labor laws.

Most developed countries also have very liberal human and workers' rights laws and protections. For instance, right now in the USA/Canada it is illegal for management of a company to try and block a union from forming. There are some loop holes and dirty tricks that management can and usually does try to prevent unionization but courts tend to come down fairly hard on that sort of behaviour. Now if the corporation is its own country it gets to make the laws. No unions. No workers' rights. Most don't even extend the right of Habeus Corpus on people within their secure areas. Basically the way that things work in Shadowrun is Economic Feudalism where vassalage (contractual obligations) determines what rights each person has. A wage slave is a essentially a serf and a mid-level manager could be seen as a knight or squire going all the way up to the CEO/Emperor at the top who reigns at the whims of a group of powerful dukes/kings/princes/whatever (Board of Directors).

The other major thing is taxes. If you have a mall with your Aztech logo bright and shiny and visible everyone in that mall is now on Aztech soil. Which means they are taxed just like a citizen of Aztech would be taxed. Now let's say that the host country is UCAS and it has a 5% sales tax on goods and services purchased by consumers and a 5% tax on supplies involved in the production of those goods and services. The market raises its prices on the goods by (1.05)(1.05). This is the normal price that consumers pay in the UCAS. But as soon as they step into the mall they are taxed at Azzie rate. Aztechnology doesn't want to undercut the competition in the UCAS (especially its stores that aren't extraterritorial) so they also mark their prices up to reflect the taxes. But they don't have to pay them to the UCAS -- it stays "above the line." This neat little trick also means that no Extraterritorial Corporation pays ANY income taxes.

[Nightwalker450]

For any questions he has just answer "MAGIC." Make sure you say it really loud and then if he tries to say anything just say "MAGIC" again until he either stops asking questions, or goes and reads the history of the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just had to post a comment from my Linkshell last night on FFXI, I can't remember the conversation, but this was the reply. My first thought was Shadowrun. (For those used to reading ascii art)

"It's Magic O(oO)o"

I think this is going to be part of my signature now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[O'Donnell Heir]

On the forensics front, if you don't have fingerprints or DNA on record then you don't have much unless you have enough to use ritual sorcery.

True dat. The Corps wouldn't send cops after you anyways. First off, they just got hit, which means a shadowrun. You can't admit to being hit by runners, because then you start making accusations in the corporate court, whether you actually voice them or not. So, instead, they use their own teams, try to figure out what they hit, who they are, and who hired them. A Cop can only kill you or arrest you, a Corp can do so much worse. If they feel adventurous they might even hire you for a return hit on whoever hired you.


As to rewards, you can use your fake SINs to set up a bank account, simply use credsticks, take it in trade, or take cash and hide it in your pillow. Paper trails are kind of a joke. First off, if anyone really wants to find you, they wouldn't have to follow paper, and they'll find you no matter how well you try to hide (Wireless comlinks and GPS just means you're always connected to something).

Taxes? Half the known world doesn't have citizenship because the head honchos of the world decided that Metahumans aren't citizens or people for a while, sure they've reversed it since, but not before the damage was done. Thanks to that debacle the only taxes most people have to spend is sales tax. You might be surprised (Unless you live in the south) how many people today have bank accounts and credit cards and don't pay taxes because they aren't citizens. No one's even called them on the lack of tax information at the banks because it's good capitol for them to use, and they certainly don't care if you file your 10W40s or not.

[swirler]

I think his main question about the extra-territorailty wasnt why corps would want it so much as "why would governments allow it?"

DTFarstar answered that pretty well, but if anyone else has more on that I'd appreciate.

and thanks everyone for what You've had so far. I know the game and love it, but sometimes things I have and "get" in my head are hard to put into words so it's nice to get everyone else's take on it also.

[cndblank]

It has also been pointed out that by the time a runner has his credit nicely laundered and where he can reach it, he has already paid about what he would have paid in taxes if he was a solid citizen (say 20 to 40% depending on how clean he wants his cred).

Sames goes for most property and services.

After making special arrangement for water and waste disposal, plus bribes for the illegal connection to the electric grid, a matrix connection, and to the local gang to keep their mouths shut and pass the word if anyone come sniffing around about you....

And keeping a fake sin or three up and current is also costly.

So the answer to your friend is that runner spend a lot of cred to stay out of the light. And the corporations and criminal organizations (if there is a difference) have very good reasons to make sure that the shadows exist despite the best efforts of the national goverments.

As soon as you make something illegal someone will be selling it on the black market.

True now and true in 60 years.

[Eyeless Blond]

One reason why art theft is so big these days (other than ID theft it's one of the fastest-growing crimes IIRC) is because they use the stolen art as currency, ways to trade large values between gangs and cartels. Most of the "legit" money transfers tend to be smaller amounts, that are harder to track and less worth the effort.

There was an interesting take on counterfeiting a few weeks ago that you might want to take a look at too.

[swirler]

There was an interesting take on counterfeiting a few weeks ago that you might want to take a look at too.

do you have a link for it?

[Wounded Ronin]

There are a number of futuristic assumptions that Shadowrun fluff makes that may not always be true or common sense.

Extraterritoriality and the Japanacorps:
In the 80s there was a reverance and fear of the Japanese corporations that has all but disappeared since the Japanese bubble burst. They are still a very powerful economic force, but not at all like it was at the end of the 80s. Extraterritoriality is also something that is the foundation of the SR: Corporations have the same power of governments. It is because of the megacorps that we are shadowrunners. Simple as that. Why it all happened or whether is should have happened or not is completely irrelevant.

This is really key. It's important to have people watch 80s movies while listening to the recorded screams of simultaneously laid off and high Detroit auto workers so that they can grasp this concept.