IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Stealth As An Open Test, More luck than skill?
Lucyfersam
post Aug 19 2003, 11:10 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 226
Joined: 29-July 03
Member No.: 5,137



We have been encountering some difficulties in our group with Stealth be handled as an open test, such as it being not uncommon for a character with a skill of 3 to randomly roll something like a 16, while a character with a skill of six gets a bit unlucky and rolls nothing higher than a 5. It seems that the open test far too easily allows for a low skill to end up with an insane stealth score that will rarely be seen. Has anyone else tried using different stealth systems, and if so what are they?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zeel De Mort
post Aug 19 2003, 11:21 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 403
Joined: 27-August 02
From: Scotland
Member No.: 3,175



Yep, we now just roll Stealth against a base TN of 4, every success adds +1 to the TN of the perception test to see you. So before other modifiers it's 4 + sucesses on the Stealth test. I find it works pretty well, or at least better than the open test. With our system you need a pretty massive skill, and good tactics/gear, to get a really high TN for other people to spot you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Aug 20 2003, 02:00 AM
Post #3


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Actually, with the exception of the lower skill levels, a lot of stealth in my experience tends to in fact be luck (shadows in the right places, no sticks that you didn't see, etc.) as much as actual flat-out skill. Not to mention that against people with decent Intelligences, they're as likely to randomly roll a huge number as the people with high skill levels. There are a few freak accidents, but now and then someone will just randomly keep looking the wrong way.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
motorfirebox
post Aug 20 2003, 04:42 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 174
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,478



the real-life aspects of luck and stealth are debatable. however, the game mechanic does present a problem, from my perspecitve, in that--as others have mentioned--it's so damn random. granted, we're talking about rolling dice, here, but there are limits; it irks me that a runner has to get lucky every time he rolls, whereas the opposition only has to get lucky once or twice. there is some balance in the fact that a single success on the part of the oppo doesn't mean automatic failure for the runner, but the stealth rules are still a lot more random than any other aspect of the game. in almost every other mechanic, a skill of 5-6 will get the job done fairly reliably; with stealth, i honestly don't start feeling comfortable with a roll until i've got at least 8 dice, preferably more like the 13 i roll for my main char. and even then, one sec guard can just roll a damn 33 out of the blue, and your whole day gets ruined. i should know, it just happened to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mongoose
post Aug 20 2003, 06:19 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 227



As a GM, I tend to view a failed stelath roll in an intrusion as blocked progress. Unless they rolled REALY badly, I figure the person doing the sneaking knows they are likely to be spotted if they keep going the way they were, but isn't automatically detected. How they act at that point then determines what happens beyond there, and they may well get another shot at rolling a stelath test. Instalations with lax security will allow more "second chances" than ones with tight security, of course...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The White Dwarf
post Aug 20 2003, 07:09 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 614
Joined: 17-June 03
From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas
Member No.: 4,754



Enter: Karma Pool. Yes there are some random flukes, but as mentioned thats the way stealth goes. What are the odds that the veteran runner with stealth 6 still has that crappy number after a point of karma? Whereas the skill 3 guy, not even "trained" according to the SR3 descriptions, does indeed have it streaky. Such is life, use karma wisely and move on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daishi
post Aug 20 2003, 09:23 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 224
Joined: 6-April 02
From: ab.ca
Member No.: 2,522



I haven't found it too much trouble. First, the higher skill characters will higher on average than the lower skill. Not always, but that's just the way it goes. Anything can happen in shadowrun. Second, the stealth roll is only the base test. Perception modifiers (for lighting, distance, etc. and usually +2 distracted in most cases) are added on top of that. And then, the opposing guards etc. have to make multiple perception successes to actually find the characters. One success just raises suspicion. It takes consistent botchery (or at least sequential) to get busted.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ezra
post Aug 20 2003, 12:33 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 120
Joined: 26-February 02
From: UK
Member No.: 1,873



I run it as an opposed roll in my games.
The Sneak rolls his Stealth against the target's Perception.
The Target rolls his perception against the Sneak's Stealth Skill.

I add modifiers to each party, things like cover, squeaky floorboards and suspicion all play a role. Normally, if the Target has no reason to expect a Sneak, they get an automatic +2 on their target number.

:)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Aug 20 2003, 03:01 PM
Post #9


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Ezra)
I run it as an opposed roll in my games.
The Sneak rolls his Stealth against the target's Perception.
The Target rolls his perception against the Sneak's Stealth Skill.

I add modifiers to each party, things like cover, squeaky floorboards and suspicion all play a role. Normally, if the Target has no reason to expect a Sneak, they get an automatic +2 on their target number.

That's how I run Stealth, except for the last modifier. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shockwave_IIc
post Aug 20 2003, 03:24 PM
Post #10


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,512
Joined: 16-August 03
From: Northampton
Member No.: 5,499



QUOTE (white dwarf wrote)
Enter: Karma Pool.  Yes there are some random flukes, but as mentioned thats the way stealth goes.  What are the odds that the veteran runner with stealth 6 still has that crappy number after a point of karma?  Whereas the skill 3 guy, not even "trained" according to the SR3 descriptions, does indeed have it streaky.  Such is life, use karma wisely and move on.


Unforuntely karma on open test's isn't used that way.
On open test's 1 karma spent gives an extra dice not a reroll. So even karma doesn't help with the stealth problem (taking the canon ruls at least).

For me i allow karma to reroll ALL (and it must be all) the dice in an open test if the player wants. So thay rolled an 8 and they think it's not enough? 1 point of karma and they reroll all of the dice including the 8.


Though i have considered doing stealth like fortune.

Fortune a Question.
If there is say 3 guards at a station do you make three test's or take the highest intelligence and add two for the other 2 guards to get the target number for the sneak?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ezra
post Aug 20 2003, 03:35 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 120
Joined: 26-February 02
From: UK
Member No.: 1,873



QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Ezra)
I run it as an opposed roll in my games.
The Sneak rolls his Stealth against the target's Perception.
The Target rolls his perception against the Sneak's Stealth Skill.

I add modifiers to each party, things like cover, squeaky floorboards and suspicion all play a role. Normally, if the Target has no reason to expect a Sneak, they get an automatic +2 on their target number.

That's how I run Stealth, except for the last modifier. :)

Yeah... I had to think about that, but given that Perception is essentially Intelligence, and not everyone has a stealth skill of 6, it makes it really hard for Sneaky Joe (Stealth 4) to creep up on the Incredible Nerd (intelligence 6)

So I try and level the playing fields.....basically, if the INcredible Nerd had heard a noise in his lab, then Sneaky Joe would probably be spotted. If however, the Incredible Nerd was actually busy doing his evil-bad-guy laugh as he mixed chemicals over a gas burner, then Sneaky Joe would have better odds.

(In that case I would apply a +2 modifier to the INcredible Nerd for being otherwise absorbed, and maybe even a further +1 because of the noise of his insane cackling. end result.......Sneaky Joe rolls 4 dice against TN 6, and the Incredible Nerd rolls 6 dice against TN 4(Sneaky Joe's skill), +2, +1 = 7.

A little more even, and in my mind at least, a little more realistic.

:D Of course, if the Incredible Nerd had a multitude of squeaky toys on the floor, a vast selection of bubble-bath solutions smeared everywhere, then Sneaky Joe would probably catch some freshly mixed chemicals thrown his way. :D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Person 404
post Aug 20 2003, 03:44 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 214
Joined: 8-June 03
Member No.: 4,696



QUOTE (motorfirebox)
and even then, one sec guard can just roll a damn 33 out of the blue, and your whole day gets ruined. i should know, it just happened to me.

A guard who rolls a 33 deserves to see you. Heck, that guard deserves a promotion and a nice big steak, too. The odds of doing this on one die are 1 in 15,552. The odds on 3 dice are therefore about 1 in 5184. I played an entire campaign with a rule of thirty- if any die rerolled all the way up to a thirty, something massively good would happen. It never happened in the entire campaign. The odds of a single sec guard rolling 33 out of the blue aren't much better than any other ridiculously improbable occurence in an alternate stealth system.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Aug 20 2003, 04:00 PM
Post #13


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
Fortune a Question.
If there is say 3 guards at a station do you make three test's or take the highest intelligence and add two for the other 2 guards to get the target number for the sneak?

One Stealth roll for the sneaking character, and a Perception roll for each guard (or other appropriate possible observer).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Aug 20 2003, 04:04 PM
Post #14


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Ezra)
Yeah... I had to think about that, but given that Perception is essentially Intelligence, and not everyone has a stealth skill of 6, it makes it really hard for Sneaky Joe (Stealth 4) to creep up on the Incredible Nerd (intelligence 6).

I can understand that. I normally tend to apply whatever modifiers seem appropriate at the time, rather than making a blanket rule. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The White Dwarf
post Aug 21 2003, 01:49 AM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 614
Joined: 17-June 03
From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas
Member No.: 4,754



Hm, Ill reread the Karma rules, maybe I missed that.

But Daishi brings up a good point about TN mods .... with camo, ruthenium, traceless walk, and setting (lighting or cover etc) the stealth roll alone isnt the entire story. Even someone with a 4, when concealed by a force 4 spirit and using camo, is at TN12 to spot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowGhost
post Aug 21 2003, 02:33 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 376
Joined: 14-July 03
Member No.: 4,928



QUOTE (Person 404)
A guard who rolls a 33 deserves to see you. Heck, that guard deserves a promotion and a nice big steak, too. The odds of doing this on one die are 1 in 15,552. The odds on 3 dice are therefore about 1 in 5184. I played an entire campaign with a rule of thirty- if any die rerolled all the way up to a thirty, something massively good would happen. It never happened in the entire campaign. The odds of a single sec guard rolling 33 out of the blue aren't much better than any other ridiculously improbable occurence in an alternate stealth system.

We have a similar house rule, called a Kennedy (named for the infamous bullet that did so much damage) - anyone who rolls a 30 or over succeeds spectacularly, and gets that skill rolled for automatically raised by one, or a free edge (GM's choice) depending on what they were rolling.

As a player, I've rolled a Kennedy twice, and once (much to players chagrin) as a Gm. I was rolling for a Hvy machine gun opening up on the Rigger's Van containing all the player characters; ending up with a highes roll of 47. All the players thought they were going to have to write up new characters, but since I was actually aiming for a tire, I decided the shot blew off the entire front end of the vehicle, and the Rigger suffer deadly stun for dump shock.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Aug 21 2003, 02:10 PM
Post #17


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
We have a similar house rule, called a Kennedy (named for the infamous bullet that did so much damage) - anyone who rolls a 30 or over succeeds spectacularly, and gets that skill rolled for automatically raised by one, or a free edge (GM's choice) depending on what they were rolling.

Despite the odds, I've seen this happen way too much to implement this rule. In one game session alone, one of my players rolled over 30 4 times (one resulted in a 97!), while I did the same thing twice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Person 404
post Aug 21 2003, 02:56 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 214
Joined: 8-June 03
Member No.: 4,696



QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
We have a similar house rule, called a Kennedy (named for the infamous bullet that did so much damage) - anyone who rolls a 30 or over succeeds spectacularly, and gets that skill rolled for automatically raised by one, or a free edge (GM's choice) depending on what they were rolling.

Despite the odds, I've seen this happen way too much to implement this rule. In one game session alone, one of my players rolled over 30 4 times (one resulted in a 97!), while I did the same thing twice.

This is when you go out and buy some dice that aren't loaded...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Aug 21 2003, 03:10 PM
Post #19


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Person 404)
This is when you go out and buy some dice that aren't loaded...

I made the player in question use different dice (my spares) after the second time. Trust me when I say that they weren't loaded. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th April 2024 - 08:52 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.