Cyberlimbs 'n stuff, some discussion on mechanics and ideas Options

[ElFenrir]

Alrighty then. So Cyberlimbs with Augmentation got awesome. Really awesome.

However, there are a few things im a bit unclear on, and it was probably me again misreading something. I tend to do that alot. It usually takes me awhile to be able to commit everything to memory.

If i recall, i THINK i remember reading that if someone has, say, a pair or arms or legs that are 9/9/9(however they got there), a torso of the same(i think the torso HAS to be the minimum body, strength, and agility of the arms if the user wants to use the arms/legs to their fullest potential), they are averaged with their meat-limbs. This i think has been the same throughout the versions(it took me awhile to digest M&M too, back in the day). So someone with a natural body, agility, and strength of 4, and a torso and two arms or legs all at 9, they would essentially have either 7 or 6. Do you count the torso in this average? 9x3(torso, 2 limbs), is 27, 4x2(other two limbs), is 8, 35/5=7.

But not counting the torso, it would be 9x2(18)+4x2((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) =26/4, or 6 after you round down.

So would the average physical stats be using 7 or 6 in this case?

Now, if i recall it's the same now as it was then with 'leading with said cyberlimb'. If someone specifically states they are attacking with their augmented cyberlimb, you use those stats. But if you just say ''i attack'', you use your Average stats. And if you state you are attacking with your NATURAL limb, you would use THIS stat.

Am i correct on this?

I'm tinkering with a near full conversion, a fellow with a torso and two legs pumped up. Ive gotten the Urge in me to do something pretty crazy that I had in mind. And since we don't use Availaiblity the cyberworld is my playground here, pretty much.

Has anyone here done characters under the new rules with extensive mods like this? I'm not talking 'an arm', im talking at least the torso/two limbs thing. Doing a FULL torso/arm/leg conversion would be great(especially for what i had in mind, i really kinda wanna play an implant addicted character, after i read that flaw i thought it was awesome for a character and i have a great idea bubbling in my head about this that will spill over unless i take it off the proverbial stove), but while Availability isn't a problem, nuyen and Essence are. (I don't quite want to go jarhead, even if i could. I kinda want the guy to at least have his head and maybe an arm intact). Besides, i wanted ot get him at least one level of initative enhancement, and that, naturally, is expensive in essence, and with the nuyen he's costing so far Alphaware might not even be an option here.

Of course then i have to realize without EXTRA mods(well, no problem for an implant addict i suppose), his arms are going to be just above average(has basic 4's in his physical stats, 5 Agility, he's an elf). Which is cool; since all of the power is going to his torso and lower body. This is why i was curious about combat; even if i got a couple levels of Muscle Augmentation(say, 3), his razors would of course use his Arm strength(which would be 7 afterward). OR, i can just leave his arms at a respectable 4, and just put all the cool toys in his torso and legs. Not sure yet here.

It might be odd to have him so one-sided(for example, if he planted his foot anchors to the ground and grabbed something that was trying to move, he would use average body strength and might well damage his arms in the process if the leg to arm ratio is REALLY different, and in this case its looking he's double in his lower body(he'll be around triple if i leave his arms Strength 4), and since i can, i might just go a lil' crazy). But if he planted a foot anchor in one thing, and then his other foot anchor in said object he's holding back...i'm guessing since his torso matches the legs, he would use total lower body strength. What about fighting? If he throws a punch, would he use Average Body Agility, but Arm Strength? A kick? Would he use Average Body Agility or Leg Agility? The kick would be Leg Strength, im almost positive(it was in SR3, but i never made a character with more than one limb in SR3. Hell, i've never made a character with more than one limb, ever.)

Ok, so he sounds like a specialized member of a Quirky Miniboss Squad-bonafide white-haired, red-eyed albino and elf on top of it, yeah, im going a bit bizzare here...i havn't done a kind of strange one for awhile-more than anything, but i think i have a good idea. And i tmight be cool to work in the fact his arms are well off with 4's and a 5 naturally, but how he balances that with UberLegs and Torso of Doom. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (You know the Quirky Miniboss Squads in action games and movies, they all have a 'schtick' or two. I figure for my first multi-limb guy i might as well have fun.)

50 Resources are by far needed, already. And yeah, given his excessive implants and addiction, Biocompatibility(cyber) is going in as well.

Is it viable to have a character a little on the unbalanced side when it comes to limb abilities? I know some things are good to have even(like, equal level Hydraulic Jacks in the legs.)

Ok, so back to this...lifting. Lifting with only arms im guessing would use Arm strength, but isn't it a Str+Body test, and doesn't lifting use your whole body? So im guessing average here again. Unless for some reason he had to ONLY use his arms(but then would the torso count for anything?)

Sorry for the possible easy questions here, but i admit when it comes to mixing and matching body parts things get confusing. This is more of a rules discussion than a character critique, i just wanted to give a small background and basic examples.

And is there anything else i should know? Armored Limbs=Awesome, Good, Get Body Armor or Dermal Sheathing instead? and other little things.

[ElFenrir]

*looks around*

*gentle bump*

heh, sorry. just for the limb rules saavy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

so i am a bit unclear on what exactly got replaced with this character now . . how many limbs? which ones? the torso of course, that much i gathered . .
but the attributes are a real problem with cyber-limbs, especially with averaging with natural body attributes . . since when does an torso need agility or strength? and if the head is left, do you have to pump up your neck/head strength, agility and body because they would seriously fuck you over if you leave them at low and the rest of your machine gets tuned to far out there?
that's a bit wonky . . but for averaging:
in unarmed(*snickers* detachale cyberarms) Combat you'd average unless you specifically state:"i kick him in the nuts!" then you'D use leg-stats . . with running again you'd be using leg-stats, but with something like climbing or swimming, where the whole body is working together, you get to average again . . i ain't really sure if that rule made it over, but in SR3 there were essence/nuyen discounts for certain pieces of ware, if you had cyber-limbs . . because they would have been incompatible with the limbs.
yes, full-metal-body and only meat-head but still has to pay full essence/nuyen price for dermal-/ortho-Tech and bone-works even if the only part of his body than can actually still take it is the head? a bit unfair no? same with muscle-work . . also, remember that bioware can not be put into cyber-limbs . . ok, with the not replacing of whole limb but augmenting it up untill it fits the description of cyberlimbs again, one could argue about that, but i won't *g*

[ElFenrir]

Well, his torso and legs are replaced. I decided that finally, i just didn't have the nuyen/essence left over; and i wanted at least one level of Initative Enhancement, and since they ditched Boosted Reflexes, im stuck with either horribly expensive or horribly Essence unfriendly stuff. (I mean, i'd LOVe MBW on this guy, even level one. But wowza, the cost.)

You know, i have my SR4 book here, but not the Augmentation on hand(my buddy has that so i can't refrence it), and come to think of it, I don't THINK Torsos need Agility. Strength, though, i could swear they needed but i could be wrong.

I'm not unbalancing his body horribly; he's not a super-strong torso and legs with 1's for his arms(where does the 'cyber neck' come in? does it come with the torso?), he's got a very respectable natural 4-5 spread in his two natural limbs(and head.) I did, again on top of that get some augmenting for them via mucle augmentation.(replacement was a no-go. Not enough essence). Also managed to get him a dermal sheath(WOW that thing is good.) Some even plastic bone lacing would have been nice too for his arms, but yeah, i forget about the whole 'pieced together' rule from SR3 where you took off..was it 5 or 10% of essence for each artifical limb?(but of course it lowered its use, too, to the point of having bone lacing in one arm wasn't worth the cost.)

Now, if i don't need Agility in my torso that frees up about 10k nuyen right there, since i don't need to buy Custom Agility or Agility bonus in the torso.(not to mention i have more Torso capacity to armor it up more.)

Yeah, i mean, i recall the 3e cyber rules better myself Stahl, but again i never went the 'more than half body' route. The averages make a bit more sense, I knew with Running, Jumping, etc, it's Leg stats, Gymnastics im guessing is Average, as is Climbing, unless i'm climbing with arms only. Any Strength tests(Body + Strength), would be average normally for lifting i think, Body+Str of Arms for raw arm lifting and i guess if i lifted with legs only, Body+Str of legs. The fighting think still confuses me...do I roll Average agility for a kick, or Leg agility for a kick, or Average agility for a punch, or Arm agility for a punch...

But I totally remember the old 'discount' rule from the old one. (I also remember when one tricked out limb cost more than a whole SUITE of limbs in SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[Stahlseele]

yeah, with us, that's even worse .. because we did away with capacity rules in SR3 . . so the 1 Million Nuyen Starting Character COU;D put 800k into his one arm if he wanted to . . but don't come crying if you lose it . .
if you punch, simple ONE ARM STRENGTH
if you kick, simple ONE LEG STRENGTH
those are the best examples for the leading with a limb you mentioned *g*
if it ain't a called shot, you're resisting damage with average, if it is, you're resisting with the limbs stats . .
oh, and of course RULES WISE the Torso/Head and the in between still need agility, strength and body . . but come on . . aside from a little bit of lifting and a little bit of athletics otherwise, what are you gonna do with a torso that is not part of a test with averaged attributes? sumo-smash somebody? o.O
do the belly ram buddy maneuvre? that's what i meant ^^
in my eyes, body is the only important attribute for torso and head . . and attributes for heads are still silly <.< . .
ah, so arms all natural and head too . . thought about switching the legs for raptors?
yeah, for arms, you will still need the bone and muscle-work and the dermal-stuff . .
oh and about that roso? remember, you need one free capacity slot to put Mr-Wang in there *snickers*

[ElFenrir]

ah, so arms all natural and head too . . thought about switching the legs for raptors?

Actually, in SR4 with these modular limbs, I can switch out the lower legs anytime I want. It's pretty insane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Again, Cyberlimbs have some real awesomeness now. So you can switch out raptors if you think you might have to run fast, put on Grip Feet if you need to climb, etc.

otherwise, what are you gonna do with a torso that is not part of a test with averaged attributes? sumo-smash somebody? o.O

man, i got the greatest picture in my head from this. ''Meet the pro-wrestling troll....THE TORSO!!!''

oh and about that roso? remember, you need one free capacity slot to put Mr-Wang in there *snickers*

<_<
>_>

...taken care of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, I can kinda see why a Torso would need Agility(it isn't like, a static thing, you can turn it and twist it and bend it and stuff).

I guess unless you got a Static Torso which would suck.

Im afraid though in SR4 the rules might have changed alot more; some are the same, some different. I do know that each limb adds to your Damage Monitor in SR4. I forget if it adds to Damage Resistance. I think they need Armor for that.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, they need armor, else you're pretty much fragged with cyber-limbs, as they, themselves, do not give any kind of bonus dice to damage resistance, as far as i know . . in SR3, they did not give boxes but gave body if they came in pairs or more so they helped a little bit with damage resistance, but that is due to new damage/armor-system *g*
ah yes, i forgot about torso-twist x.X
*snaps fingers* ah yes, kid stealth comes in modular now O.o
hmm . . could one combine kid-stealth-legs with grapple-feet?
and combine those grapple feet with foot-anchors and geck-stuff? probably not, but hey, that would be pretty much badass*g*

[Rad]

The big issue with cyberlimb stats comes in when you're getting shot at, because even if you're head's the only meat part of you left, it'll still drag your reflexes and body average down.

It sounds weird at first, but imagine your tuned-up cyberbody dodging the shot, dragging your head behind it Warner Brothers style. Called shots are worse, because unless you've got synthetic limbs and he can't tell the difference, your attacker is probably going to aim for the fleshy bits.

[ElFenrir]

The big issue with cyberlimb stats comes in when you're getting shot at, because even if you're head's the only meat part of you left, it'll still drag your reflexes and body average down.

It sounds weird at first, but imagine your tuned-up cyberbody dodging the shot, dragging your head behind it Warner Brothers style. Called shots are worse, because unless you've got synthetic limbs and he can't tell the difference, your attacker is probably going to aim for the fleshy bits.

Good point there. I did notice something about Cyberlimbs however; they don't include a Reaction score.


Reaction is the Dodge score. Roll it, or it plus dodge, or it plus gymnastics, or it plus parry, etc.


Im guessing they did this because your Reaction time has more to do with your 'brain' (initative is Reaction and Intuition now, after all) and less to do with your body. But yet it's a physical score, so i can be wrong there. Maybe it's a bit of both? I for example have heard of folks who, say, can run fast as living hell, but can't catch a ball if it's thrown at them from a meter.

But either way, even if you have a full suite of completely decked cyberlimbs and torso with 13s in all the Body, Strength, and Agility, with only your natural head remaining(for example, if you could via biocompatibility and betaware), if your natural reaction is 2, that's what you're rolling for dodge, no matter how superpowered the body you have is. (This is why i made sure not to gimp Reaction and am even trying to find room for an enhancer or two in there.)

Im not sure why they didn't include needing Reaction unless it is the aformentioned 'synapses hitting brain' thing; I mean i'm not complaining as it's less to have to purchase up with the rest of the stuff, but it is something to think of.

Oh, and i'm SO getting a helmet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As for his natural arms, even with a level of Dermal Sheathing(which matches his natural skin color anyway and probably is designed to match the stuff on his cyberparts), Im sure that a clever opponent might notice and take called shots to them. Perhaps they would notice him favoring his legs; they might notice while his legs could kick a steel door several meters off it's hinges, he didn't use his arms, that while his speed and power with his arms when wielding his sword is quite good; isn't quite as fast as the running speed of his legs might let on. (I figure someone wearing body armor, it might be hard to tell even obvious limbs. Of course, if he's wearing a tank top his torso will be noticed as a bunch of white mechanics, or has on Raptor Leg enhancements. I forget if you can wear those...what were they, the Nightengale Ultra Feet of Doom or whatnot with boots.)

I'll have to talk to the GM or get more input on how combat might be resolved. So far the consensus says ''always use average Agility EXCEPT for a couple circumstances'', but im not sure if his leg agility(torso might) would come into play if he's shooting a gun.

[Malicant]

It sounds weird at first, but imagine your tuned-up cyberbody dodging the shot, dragging your head behind it Warner Brothers style. Called shots are worse, because unless you've got synthetic limbs and he can't tell the difference, your attacker is probably going to aim for the fleshy bits.

Just one thing, cyberlimbs don't have a reaction attribute, so no head-dreaging occurs in that situation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, aiming in SR4 is so abstract that I wouldn't concern myself with getting shot in the head all the time.

[Rad]

Well, my point about called shots is that they force cyberlimb users to use the stats for the body part targeted. You might have an OK body average to resist damage with, but if your actual body stat is significantly lower than your ware's, it's makes for a helluva Achilles' heel.

It basically makes called shots more effective on cyberlimb users.

[ElFenrir]

In a way, perhaps. The called shot rules are pretty harsh, though, for someone to do it every time. Add this into the 'average' opponent(ok, read: Mook) having a die pool of what, 8 after smartlink? And it becomes even rougher. If i recall, the Called Shot rules are:

-1 Die, for +1 DV...isn't there a limit of +/-4 on that? This one goes under Target Vital.

There's the Bypass Armor shot, which is a - Die Pool Modifier equal to opponent's Armor. This one's a real SOB if someone has an Armor Jacket or better.

Then there is 'knock something out of grasp', which is a -4.

Granted, people can Take Aim right before to help ease this a bit. But even a DP of 10-11 isn't having an easy time

What would 'Target Non Cyber Bodypart' be under? Probably Target Vital, with the +/- of 1-4?

Bypass Armor would be really tough on someone with an Armor Jacket(8/6), Cyberlimb Armor(Averaged together. So if both legs and the torso had 2 points of armor each, but the arms none, that's still a net 1 point of armor after the average...), not to mention Dermal Sheathing(which DOES help protect non cyberlimbs too). Right there that's a -10, which is nasty. IMO, it might be better to try the bonus to DV roll, at least you have a chance of filling up the Stun meter with a few well placed shots.

So i don't know if i would go as far as to say ''Achilles Heel'', due to the difficulty of said shots...BUT is it a weakness that can be exploited at least a bit? Sure.

[Stahlseele]

didn't the board of deeducation reach the consensus that cyber-limb-armor stacks directly some time?
or am i reopening old wounds here?
as for the sheath: if you can spare some money, go with the ruthenium polymer version, colour-change at your leisure, you can even make your arms and head look like your metal bits if you want to give the impression of not having any fleshy bits left O.o
or coat your cyber in ruthenium and make it look like your flesh and if you hit someone with that arm he's gonna feel as if he had met a sledge-hammer and the two of them had become very personal in a much too short time *g*

[ElFenrir]

The Ruthenium Sheath sounds pretty cool; I can keep it white, like my guy's skin, or whatnot. I kinda planned on making his cyberparts white and light gray, to match him but still look eerie.

My money right now though, sheesh. I admit i gotta do a bit of minmaxing here to see how I can average stats, etc. I just know as long as i get the Torso and Legs o' Doom i'll be happy.


I'll talk to my GM soon and find out the big list for the dice pools. He's going to have a LOT of differering die pools(Legs+Torso, Average, and Arms for anything that has to do with physical stats.)

Im still trying to make room for a bit more armor around. If i can get an armor of at least 1 or 2 on each piece, i think that will be good.

Another thing; Obvious cyberlimbs are, like, obvious. But what about if someone has on pants, boots, a shirt, and jacket? Is there a Perception modifier still, or are they effectively hidden?

[Stahlseele]

Logically speaking people should not be able to tell what kinda legs you're running if you're not wearing tight pants or cut offs or a kilt or something like that . . ruleswise speaking? obvious is obvious, everybody and their mom will know at more or less first glance . . hell, even if you're sporting the synthetic legs and you're wearing FFBA and over that a lose fitting coverall and you spend time with people, they are going to notice that your Torso and Legs are fake . . in SR3 there were even rules for that i think . .

[Malicant]

didn't the board of deeducation reach the consensus that cyber-limb-armor stacks directly some time?

Yeas, it does, all the time. If you have all limbs maxed to 4 armor, you will walk around with 24 points of armor nekkid. It is kind of awesome, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

if you're adofus you're running around with 6/6 Armor maximum on character Generation and more later on, so not that bad and cyber should be superior in such things i say . . and i like playing the tank, and i don't like averaging and doing more math than needed, so i like the simple addition of armor point for point ^^
so the guy with the torso and the legs, both being armored up to 4(hypothetically) would get +12 Armor and if he takes the dermal sheath for heads and arm(i still wait for rules that allow more than one head or more than two arms) level 3 that would give him +15/15 Armor?
not too shabby O.o
add to that Worn Armor and yes, you can soak pretty much most things without going the full brick roll

[ElFenrir]

Wow. Stacking armor-i might have to squeeze some more out of this.


Yeah, i recall some of the rules for noticing cyberware. In THEORY, if someone is wearing combat boots, baggy cargos, and a closed up leather jacket, you shouldn't be able to tell anything(so long as the limbs aren't Raptor legs or something), but there ARE still rules. i guess they might roll to notice if someone is sitting there some artifical metal muscle or something.

And i double thought on the Ruthenium. If i got that, my guy would have to run naked. Maybe i'll go for a suit if i want it that bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

yeah so? if you remove Mr-Wang you have 1 Capacity free for something else you'll need on the Run and nobody will really realize that you're naked *gg*
but yeah, the suit is a good idea anyway ^^

[Malicant]

Cybertorso does not remove the original Mr Wang, so no need to spend the room for a new wang.

Why are we talking about wang anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Stahlseele]

if you get cyberlegs and need a stronger torso to keep the legs attached . . then what part gets switched out?
at least the part where the legs connect to your torso and that's generally more or less the groin area . .
also: we're talking about it 'cause it's funny some times and it's there in the books that Mr.Wang either gives or uses up 1 Capacity

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, i mean, erm...i'm not running Naked and i'm not removing 'Mr. Wang.' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Now, am i correct in saying that the Limb ratings can't be used above the Torso rating? Again, my buddy's got the book now but i recall reading something about Redlining a limb. Is this when you use, say, your arms and legs and your Torso doesn't match? I don't recall this in the old M&M book, but i recall hearing something about Redlining in SR4.


Im also still trying to figure out how these pools would work.


Athletics: Running, Jumping: Leg/Torso rating. This one's easy.
Climbing: Average. Holding up by arms: Would this be Arm/Torso average or just Arms? Swimming? Average but i don't think im even going to bother here. He's sinking like a stone anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Unarmed Combat: Average agility to Attack...but Leg strength if kicking, Average or Arm strength if punching, since the Arms are attached to the Torso? (also, if he's kicking, would he actually roll the Leg Agility to attack? I asked this before but im still not positive. How would his Arm Agility play in if he was kicking or kneeing someone?

Likewise, would his Torso Agility really help his arms move faster? I can KIND of see the arms/torso getting average, but the arms and legs seem much more seperate. (For example, i don't think his leg strength would come into play when he fires his SMG in Burst mode or whatnot.)

[Stahlseele]

no no noo . . redlining is overclocking your legs with maxed out strength 11 to give you strength 22 for a second to make a REALLY grand jump . . but you'll be ruing it directly after, 'cause you get stun-damage when overloading your body like that . .
and no, i think it does not matter if the limbs are rated above the torso, the torso is just there to make sure the much stronger limbs don't get ripped out of the much weaker flesh . . even if the torso is weaker in strength, body and agility . . the torso is still fucking metal and will hold onto that limb as if it were the last lover he'll ever get . .

Again, Leg-Strength if kicking, Leg-Agility when kicking
Arm-Strength when punching, Arm-Agility when punching
if you simply do close combat without specifying wether you kick or punch the opponent, you average all of those . . let's say for biting or headbutting or body-slamming somebody or something like that . .

no, his torso does not help his arms move faster, the torso only allows the much faster and stronger limbs to be fitted onto the weaker flesh . . the torso really doesn't do anything in SR, aside from holding in your organs and connecting the other limbs more or less *g*
and no, leg-strength does not come into consideration when dealing with burst-fire, that's only arm-strength i'd say O.o

[Malicant]

if you get cyberlegs and need a stronger torso to keep the legs attached . . then what part gets switched out?
at least the part where the legs connect to your torso and that's generally more or less the groin area . .
also: we're talking about it 'cause it's funny some times and it's there in the books that Mr.Wang either gives or uses up 1 Capacity

They don't cut away your junk, they just replace bones and certain muscles. That's how I understand it, anyways.

[ElFenrir]

no no noo . . redlining is overclocking your legs with maxed out strength 11 to give you strength 22 for a second to make a REALLY grand jump . . but you'll be ruing it directly after, 'cause you get stun-damage when overloading your body like that . .
and no, i think it does not matter if the limbs are rated above the torso, the torso is just there to make sure the much stronger limbs don't get ripped out of the much weaker flesh . . even if the torso is weaker in strength, body and agility . . the torso is still fucking metal and will hold onto that limb as if it were the last lover he'll ever get . .

Ahh, gotcha on Redlining. So it's one of those 'only in emergency, and even then, maybe spend Edge instead' sort of instances.

As for the torso, i admit i was wondering alot on that. I could have sworn they had a thing where you can't have a cyberlimb rated over X without a Cybertorso. But after that, I always thought the limb couldn't be over Torso rating. In any case, Body would be a good thing to up for the torso, but im wondering how someone with a pair of Strength 11 arms and a Strength 5 Cybertorso would work. (I guess i was trying to use some common sense in the torso and limb combos.)