shotgun glove..., watching to much anime perhaps? Options

[hobgoblin]

i was watching mnemosyne today, and a interest weapon showed up...

basically a kind of brass knucle with 4 shotgun shells on top.

seems to be designed so that when one punch one shell is fired, and given the range makes a nice mess of the target.

something tells me that one could model it based on a shock glove that does shotgun damage, or something similar...

[Heath Robinson]

The boomstick knuckle is not a practical weapon unless you happen to a rapidly regenerating, pain tolerant masochist. It would break your arm everytime you fired it.

THE BOOMSTICK KNUCKLE IS SILLY! DO NOT STEP INTO THE DARKNESS!

On the other hand, if you happen to be a superhuman regenerating masochist (such as may exist in Shadowrun), then it's basically a very wide choke shotgun (no barrel to focus the spread). Though one could rule that it counts as narrow choke due to the fact that it only fires when you actually impact with a punch and therefore the target is at range 0.

[Fix-it]

IIRC, they had one of those in Fallout:Tactics.

never saw the point, seeing as Raiders usually ended up with 9mm holes long before they were close enough.

[DocTaotsu]

I vote Too Much Anime (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But seriously, do all 4 shots fire at once? That just sounds like the most awful awful thing ever.

Your team medic will weep openly if you so much as pass your PAN over that at a gun show.

Course, duct tape fixes everything right?

[Kingmaker]

Why not just get a cyber arm with an implanted shotgun?

[Dr Funfrock]

Heath and Fix-it are right, it's a silly weapon for many reasons.

The value of melee is that it's silent. You can't silence a punch shotgun. It's therefore only useful as a defensive melee weapon, because if you're attacking you might as well just shoot them with a real shotgun instead of punching them with one. If you have been attacked in melee and need something to defend yourself with, then you're just left with the problem of it breaking your wrist every time you fire it.

So by all means, have it deal 9P(f), +3 AP in melee, in addition to unarmed damage. After that you can just have the user soak... about 4P with no armour counting every time they use it. If they're a Troll with bone lacing, probably fairly reasonable.
Then again, if they're a Troll with bone lacing, they really don't need something like this to be dangerous in melee.

[Heath Robinson]

I vote Too Much Anime (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But seriously, do all 4 shots fire at once? That just sounds like the most awful awful thing ever.

Your team medic will weep openly if you so much as pass your PAN over that at a gun show.

Course, duct tape fixes everything right?

Generally your arm is not in the optimal bracing position for dealing with large calibre recoil in the middle of punch, you also bear the entire recoil with a single arm and I do not think that the simplest (since this is not a sensible piece of equipment you cannot expect any professional company to produce it, therefore the only people making these things will be those who are bodging it together, who will go for simple) design will have round selection, so it'll likely fire all at once or require you use an action to cock the next firing pin to prepare the next round.

On another tack, if you want a shotgun punch you could, instead, go for an Adept with an Elemental Strike using Metal.

[Larme]

They didn't have a shotgun knuckle in Fallout, it was a Power Fist. (EDIT: Though I didn't play tactics, so they might have had one there). The closest thing to a power fist in Shadowrun is the hydraulic press. Grab ahold and squish!

Also, they had a hydraulic ram in 3rd ed, which acted about like how you want, only it's not an explosion going off on your hand, it's hydraulic hammer action. Pretty sure they dropped in in 4th ed, but you could bring it back easily enough I think.

Or was that from CP2020? Regardless, it's more reasonable than a shotgun knuckle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shrike30]

Fallout: Tactics had, I believe, a 12 gauge or 10mm glove, can't remember which it was.

I could see someone using this. If the recoil from a cybershotgun isn't enough to mess with your arm, I don't see why the recoil from one bolted to the outside would be, and having fired shotguns one-handed (albeit, they weigh about 7 pounds), it's impressive, but it isn't going to rip your arm off.

I'd likely go for something closer to the chopped T-250's "heavy pistol" damage code, firing in flechette if appropriate. Could be entertaining. Not sure there'd be much of a mass market for these things, but if nothing else, someone has custom built one...

[hobgoblin]

nope it didnt fire all shells at the same time, and yes, the lady using is could very well be described as a regenerating (apparently comparable to wolverine without the adamantium) masochist. and she didnt use it until she was being swamped by what can best be described as zombies...

[Crusher Bob]

I know that shotgun shell based bangsticks are used against various critters; the recoil of a single shotgun shell is not going to break your hand or any other silly hollywoodism.

[nathanross]

I'm not so sure about that Crusher Bob. I probably wont break your wrist, but long term use cannot be good for it.

Not a bad idea. Adepts are currently able to do this with Elemental Effect (Metal) and dont ever run out of shells. It would not be game breaking as they still have Armor to resist it with.

[DocTaotsu]

I note the paucity of pistols that fire shotgun shells on the open market (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree that a fist full of shotgun wouldn't be a game breaker. This will probably kick off another "shock glove vs shock glove+punch DV" debate but, would you add damage from the strike as well?

[Crusher Bob]

From what little I know of bangsticks, the fact that the rim of the bangstick is in contact with the skin of the critter at the time of detonation means that all gas from the shell detonation is also channeled into the wound cavity. This tends to produce wounds of considerably greater severity than regular gunshot wounds.

Note you can achieve the same effect by simply jamming the muzzle of your weapon into the other guy before pulling the trigger. For bonus points, use your bayonet to anchor your weapon firmly in the target before pulling the trigger.

As for not breaking your wrist... You ever hit your thumb with a hammer? Did it break anything? Then would would be willing to hit your thumb with a hammer every time, just to make your punch do a little more damage? Especially when you could just shoot the other guy and not hit your thumb with a hammer?

The Tarus judge is a revolver chambered for .410 shotgun shells, not that it's good for much of anything. Bond arms makes a few different models of derringer, also chambered in .410. Serbu Firearms makes a very short shogun called the 'super shorty', but at an overall length to ~16inches, it's a bit big to be called a pistol.

[Adarael]

I'm STILL looking for a viable rule on how to make this kind of weapon work. Mostly because I want to make a Sangre Y Acero practicioner with a shotgun or 20mm implanted in his cyberleg. Have it impact trigger when he delivers a knee to somebody.

[Crusher Bob]

20mm cannon rounds will break something. Soldiers during WW2 firing 20mm anti-tank rifles would occasionally get broken collarbones, and that is with 40+ kg of rifle to absorb the recoil.

My first impression is simply to have a second damage resistance test vs the base damage of a shotgun 7P (+3) with no added hits.

[Stahlseele]

wasn't there a similar weapon in SR3? this light pistol arm-band-weapon-thingie?

[Cabral]

The gun bracer is in Arsenal too.

And according to Bubblegum Crisis, shell enhanced punches are doable in form-fitting military armor (FFMA is 1/2 encumbrance, right?)

[nezumi]

Also keep in mind, the barrel of a shotgun isn't just there for decoration. The barrel is where the lead is actually accelerated to a speed such that it will penetrate things like human flesh. If you're just holding the shell against a person and firing it without even an inch of barrel, the only mess it'll make of someone is all the burnt powder thrown on him.

[Rad]

Not a shotgun, but one of the characters in Guilty Gear XX had a gunglove kind of thing that looked like it was capable of autofire.

Of course, he was also a walking wall of muscle the size of a tank.

Still, in a world where panther cannons don't dislocate your hip when fired, this doesn't sound all that unreasonable--and pretty useful if you let it fire all of the standard ammo types, instead of just flechettes. Throw in a smartlink and a barrel-selection mechanism and you can load each knuckle with a different kind of ammo and wirelessly chose whether to go stick-n-shock, shotgun, explosive, or APDS.

On a more sane note, make it an oversized gauntlet thingy, with built in recoil compensation. If you can fit cyber-gyromounts in your wrists, a gunglove with active shock damping shouldn't be that big a deal.

If I were making one for myself, I'd give it hold-out ranges and have a squeeze-bar across the palm to work as the trigger (compression of the fist during a punch activates it, but you can fire from a distance too.)

It'd be good as a backup weapon, an interesting range weapon for melee-types, you'd never have to worry about dropping it or having to switch weapons if the guy you're firing at manages to close the distance, and they'd have to literally disarm you to take it away from you.

Also with the range left in you could do fun things like fire a wide-choke flechette round with a melee strike and catch the dude's friends in the blast.

Maybe it's just me, but a set of brass knuckles that's also a shotgun sounds very SR. It's got that whole gritty, cheap-shot overteched underdog feel. Imagine a weakling human punching out a badass ork ganger with one of these. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[edit] And if you can't buy standard ammo working with such a short barrel length, just give it it's own custom ammo that works more like a mini shaped charge or something. [/edit]

[Fuchs]

Also keep in mind, the barrel of a shotgun isn't just there for decoration. The barrel is where the lead is actually accelerated to a speed such that it will penetrate things like human flesh. If you're just holding the shell against a person and firing it without even an inch of barrel, the only mess it'll make of someone is all the burnt powder thrown on him.

That's incorrect. Even without a barrel, it'll do some serious damage at that range, just considerably less than if fired from a pistol or even longarms barrel.

(A key-holder "pistol" using a small caliber round (7,6 mm pistol calibre, if I recall correctly, maybe even .22 short) with no barrel to speak of went through a leather jacket at a distance of several meters, but did not penetrate the t-shirt underneath it. It did cause a bleeding shoulder wound though.)

[Crusher Bob]

The point of the bangstick is not as a super short range firearm. The end of the bangstick is actually in contact with the thing you want to suffer a world of hurt. All the gases generated by the shell going off are vented into the wound cavity, along with the shot/bullet. Some bangstick designs even make do with blanks, though the shot is helpfull in generating the initial wound cavity for the gas to gain access to. Also note that a bangstick going off will probably be similar in noise profile to a silenced firearm or quieter, since the gas expansion should be mostly contained by the body of the target itself.

[nezumi]

That's incorrect. Even without a barrel, it'll do some serious damage at that range, just considerably less than if fired from a pistol or even longarms barrel.

(A key-holder "pistol" using a small caliber round (7,6 mm pistol calibre, if I recall correctly, maybe even .22 short) with no barrel to speak of went through a leather jacket at a distance of several meters, but did not penetrate the t-shirt underneath it. It did cause a bleeding shoulder wound though.)

I wouldn't call 'bleeding shoulder wound' serious damage. There are cases of people shooting themselves firing off bullets to sell the brass, who got hit at point blank with a bullet and had little worse than some minor bleeding. In Shadowrun terms, that would be a light wound. So you're basically talking about a low-powered, ammunition-limited knife. If given that choice, I'd probably go with the knife.

All the gases generated by the shell going off are vented into the wound cavity, along with the shot/bullet.

If it's on the end of a sword, sure. Otherwise, the bullet will hit the guy's armor, which will slow the bullet (which wasn't going especially fast to begin with), while the gases will take the easiest escape route - around the sides of the bullet (it having left the casing already) where it will literally make a mess of the guy by spreading burnt powder all over his nice, clean, armor jacket.

We've had this discussion before, when we talk about 'what happens when my sam carrying 200lbs of ammo is hit by a fireball??' The general answer by the gun nuts is 'not much'.

[nezumi]

fragging work internet thinks it's funny to 404 on me...

[Rad]

...Also note that a bangstick going off will probably be similar in noise profile to a silenced firearm or quieter, since the gas expansion should be mostly contained by the body of the target itself.

Colt Manhunter: 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
10 Clips of regular Ammo 365 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Using your opponent as a silencer:

Priceless.

There are some things nuyen can't buy. For everything else, there's Shadowrun.