[X] My Assistant

[sunnyside]

On fibre optics. I still use them in my campaigns. Because encryption is a joke and everybody who knows the matrix in the SR universe knows this.

That's why instead of sitting at home and telecommuting while still lying in bed through your comlink the wageslaves have to get up, drive to an actual building, and sit at an actual desk. And when what you're doing is secret enough that broadcasting it to everyone inside the RF paint isn't an option it's time to shut off the wireless and plug in the fibre optic line.

In short if a system has the really good paydata the only way to access it is to get your hacker into the target building and attach some fibre to them. Which is cause for plenty of runs in and of itself.

Back on the shadows topic. Again I think some of you need to quit making every street outside of every stuffer shack high security. That just makes high security meaningless.

Personally I kinda like the effect on the players perceptions when they feel the corp oppresion a little. In C or lower rated areas I let them act like they did in SR3. But A, AA, and especially AAA zones. Oh I'm afraid those are only for the good people of the world. Not you.

Scumbag.

I wouldn't be surprised if something along those lines is what gets added in a later book. It isn't a rules change even. Just a clarification for section that was really left open to interpritation.

[CanRay]

I'm personally ruleing that CommLinks and the Wireless Matrix works like Cell Phones do today.

Sure, they're wireless, but you need a high-bandwidth backbone to make it work. HEY! Look at that! There's already one in place! The Fibreoptics!

It's not so much that the Wired Matrix is dead, it's just that the Matrix is now ACCESSABLE to everyone due to the Wireless Initiative.

You can still slink into that Redmond Barren Illegal Jackpoint, replace the fried/corrupted hardware that was eaten by the "Viking Computer Program From Hel's Domain" (No, that's not a typo), and there you go, all the illegal access you once had is yours again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[hobgoblin]

so people want more street, but also the ability to run themed gangs that rampage out of the barrens like barbarians into rome?

[Method]

Again I think some of you need to quit making every street outside of every stuffer shack high security. That just makes high security meaningless.

Hit the nail on the head.

And all the surveillance in the world doesn't mean jack shit if nobody actually cares enough to come looking for you.

[Adarael]

I'm personally ruleing that CommLinks and the Wireless Matrix works like Cell Phones do today.

Sure, they're wireless, but you need a high-bandwidth backbone to make it work. HEY! Look at that! There's already one in place! The Fibreoptics!

It's not so much that the Wired Matrix is dead, it's just that the Matrix is now ACCESSABLE to everyone due to the Wireless Initiative.

You can still slink into that Redmond Barren Illegal Jackpoint, replace the fried/corrupted hardware that was eaten by the "Viking Computer Program From Hel's Domain" (No, that's not a typo), and there you go, all the illegal access you once had is yours again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

This is exactly what I do as well, yes. I basically rule it as short-range node-to-node contact, but to get from Joebob In Seattle to Dr. Chung's Killbot Emporium in Hong Kong, you'd best be routing your ass through the matrix proper.

[hobgoblin]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/14/america...idual-garments/

[nathanross]

Just dropping in to say that several of these concerns will be addressed in upcoming books.

Im glad to hear that, though I am very disappointed that the setting was not better thought out from the beginning.

The biggest issue with the wireless matrix is the lack of backbones. No way in hell are you going to tell me that they just abandoned them. They are so many millions of miles of Fiber optic all over the sixth world that it would be downright stupid to abandon it. Also, the European grid is still 100% functional after the crash, and while the wireless would make some headway, it would not outright replace Lofwyr's grid.

Now I am curious whether commlinks are Wireless devices only, or can they deck at jackpoint as well? I hate the way they didnt take into consideration the way things were before, and just made a completely new SR without much regard for the past. I understand that this may have been a good development choice, but as a fan of the setting, it saddens me.

[CanRay]

I understand that this may have been a good development choice, but as a fan of the setting, it saddens me.

It could be much, much worse. (*Cough*FASA Studios owned by MicroDeck*Cough*)

[hobgoblin]

Im glad to hear that, though I am very disappointed that the setting was not better thought out from the beginning.

The biggest issue with the wireless matrix is the lack of backbones. No way in hell are you going to tell me that they just abandoned them. They are so many millions of miles of Fiber optic all over the sixth world that it would be downright stupid to abandon it. Also, the European grid is still 100% functional after the crash, and while the wireless would make some headway, it would not outright replace Lofwyr's grid.

Now I am curious whether commlinks are Wireless devices only, or can they deck at jackpoint as well? I hate the way they didnt take into consideration the way things were before, and just made a completely new SR without much regard for the past. I understand that this may have been a good development choice, but as a fan of the setting, it saddens me.

i dont recall the text ever downright saying that everything (including transcontinental backbones) where wireless now.

to me, people are making a mountain out of a molehill...

[kzt]

so people want more street, but also the ability to run themed gangs that rampage out of the barrens like barbarians into rome?

As long as what happens in the barrens, stays in the barrens, I'm fine with that.

When they start trying to come OUT of the barrens and messing with Citizens, then they get the hammer dropped on them. With the ammo and drone expenditures paid for by the pay per view.

[sunnyside]

i dont recall the text ever downright saying that everything (including transcontinental backbones) where wireless now.

to me, people are making a mountain out of a molehill...

Worse, I think in their campaigns it actually IS a mountain.

[Method]

Another thing to consider: lets say your PC commits a crime. Kills a guard or something. Then the guard's friends start looking for the runner. They may use security footage and face recognition software to determine the runners identity, or pull up the logs from a near-by vending machine to determine his commcode. They might track down his contacts and start "asking tough questions". Burn his apartment building to the ground, including sweet Mrs. Friendly that lived down the hall. Gridguide his car into a grid lock ambush. Etc etc etc...

Well me, I like to call those "plot devices". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sunnyside]

Another thing to consider: lets say your PC commits a crime. Kills a guard or something. Then the guard's friends start looking for the runner. They may use security footage and face recognition software to determine the runners identity, or pull up the logs from a near-by vending machine to determine his commcode. They might track down his contacts and start "asking tough questions". Burn his apartment building to the ground, including sweet Mrs. Friendly that lived down the hall. Gridguide his car into a grid lock ambush. Etc etc etc...

Well me, I like to call those "plot devices". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

First I must say I strongly agree with entities responding differently depending on what runners do. If they took some plans. Well, that's just biz, try to get the info back, but then write it off. They kill a secretary and a guard? They just make it personal for somebody.

But that said in the above example they should be shifting from nanopaste mask to nanopaste mask and comcode to comcode.

Hmmmmmm.

Maybe a good way to describe SR4 is that we've moved from cyberpunk to cyberpro.

[Method]

I should point out that the PCs should by all means take steps to protect themselves. I'm just saying that slipping up every once in awhile doesn't ruin the game... IMHO it's what makes the game fun to play.

Maybe a good way to describe SR4 is that we've moved from cyberpunk to cyberpro.

Hmmm... Interesting way to put it. I think you're right. But I can understand where people have concerns, since the RAW seems to imply that the "cyberpro" playing style is integral to the system, and thats not what some players are looking for.

I really can see it both ways, but I just don't think the changes have ruined the SR universe forever... </hyperbole> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

(edit for clarity)

[counterveil]

Personally I've been playing SR since SR1 and I've always seen the necessity to update the technology as our own advances rapidly.

For those that claim that there seems to be a more "big brother" feel to the game where your information is readily available to anyone in law enforcement that wants it, I point to a number of the things people have already brought up (info overload, not following up on people who aren't exhibiting egregious lawbreaking tendencies, etc.).

There is also the inherent problem with info-share between the various organizations that police the different areas of Seattle. I think it takes a really positive person to say that every organization is willing to share this information and/or dump it into some national database somewhere. To me, the reality of it is that various organizations will have pieces of the data and other organizations are able to access it through some mechanism similar to the web services businesses are so fond of these days. However, the inherent problem there is that there will be constant issues with validity of data, exchange protocol compatibility, and all the other things that existing info-share services experience today. Imagine how much more of an issue this will be in a world where corporations are basically nationalities, and a lot of their own information is considered a business secret? So long as they control their territory, and insofar as their citizens live within their own "borders", do you think they would share information with some governing body if they didn't have to?

On top of that you'll have issues with rival law enforcement orgs sharing info, problems with certain corporations or LE orgs even trusting external info being sent to their endpoint devices, and so on.

It would appear to me that a SIN scan by a "generic" LE device (drone or otherwise) would only be *legally* able to grab certain portions of information that all corporations and [important] national bodies agree to - realistically this would probably be:

- A valid SIN, tied to:
- date of birth
- relevant physical features
- criminal record, if any

All else, such as purchasing habits, credit information, and the like would very likely be information stored directly on a specific merchant's database, and - depending on the capability of said merchant - may or may not be immediately available to law enforcement agencies.

I just really don't think that a rating6 SIN is even required to operate inside of AAA zones - but that's just me and my spin on 4th ed I guess.

I dunno...it seems to me that there are plenty of shadows to hide in - especially the ones that virtually run between the databases of the various entities of the 6th World...

[hyzmarca]

One of the biggest things I have always wondered about was where a runner's matrix accounts were in 4th. Certainly not with one of the established banks as they would have pretty strict security checks and detailed monitoring of all account transactions.

Why? Why the hell would they. They're banks. They don't care where the money comes from or where it goes as long as it sits in their vaults long enough for them to make a pretty penny by loaning people your money at a floating interest rate. Banks today have all sorts of security requirements because of anti-money laundering and anti-terrorism financing laws. Banks in Shadowrun tend to be the sort that can legally make their own laws and they tend to pay people to commit terrorist acts on their behalves. The way I see it, they'll have strict privacy laws, much like the laws in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. The way I see it, in Shadowrun's extraterritorial banks, just like in Swiss banks of 1944, you can walk up to a teller and say in a thick German accent "I am a British businessman and I would like to open an account and deposit this large sack full of gold teeth" and they would accept those gold teeth without batting an eyelash.


As for other concerns, there is one important thing to remember about Shadowrun, biometrics are worthless for identification. They really are. Every biometric that can be scanned and used for identification can be changed without breaking the law.

Lets start with the most basic, fingerprints. In real life, fingerprints can be changed by wearing them down with abrasives or burning them off with acids. Bricklayers and other people who work with abrasives day in and day out and who don't wear gloves tend to not have fingerprints for this reason. And the fingerprints won't grow back the same, because fingerprints aren't genetic. In Shadowrun, people change their fingers. They don't do it all the time, but they can do it often enough that fingerprints are useless for identification. Maybe you were in a horrible woodchipper accident, maybe that cyberhand wasn't nearly as cool as you thought it was maybe you dishonored yourself in front of your very strict Japanese boss. For whatever reason, people get new fingers all the time. And some people go around with metal fingers just for the hell of it.

Then there is retina scans. In real life, they're difficult to lose and difficult to duplicate. In Shadowrun, they're the stupidest biometric that you could possible use. People get their eyes changed often enough for there to be eye fashions. Cybereyes are extremely common and are usually worn for vanity rather than for utility. They're a status symbol that even some homeless people have. Using retina patters to confirm identity is pretty much impossible in an enviroment where you can go to the mall, pick your favorite color of the cool new cybereye line and have your flesh-eyes scooped out and replaced right there in the store.

Height, weight, sex, distinguishing features, apparaet age, and apparent metatype are all mutable with UGE, SRUGE, and cosmetic surgery. (of course, you'll have to do a great deal of cutting and probably some organ replacement to make a troll look like a dwarf).

DNA is the most reliable biometric but it is also the most expensive to implement properly. Portable and commercial DNA scanners have trouble dealing with certain geneware techniques and are not reliable enough to be admissible in a court of law. A full series of laboratory tests can accurately identify even altered DNA, but they're time consuming and expensive.


The gist of it is that if you're a fifteen-foot-tall male Aussie troll with bone-spikes growing out of your body and a barbed poisonous tail but your SIN data says your a 5-foot human Filipino stay-at-home mother of three you can plausibly tell anyone who calls you on it that goblinization is a bitch and you did want to hurt your family but you couldn't keep living a lie anymore.

This, of course, means that there will be a great deal of handwaving within reason and while it may be mandatory to broadcast valid SINs no one is actually checking them to see if they match the broadcaster in any way, except in high security areas.


This leads us to my preferred way around a great deal of the silliness of interactions between mandatory SIN broadcasting and the SINless lifestyle: burners.
Burners are an idea stolen by me from The Wire and I'm pretty sure it is a real gang tactic. The idea of burners in real life is simple. You buy a disposable prepaid cellphone, the kind that you can refill with cards bought at any continence store, and you register it using fake information. Then, you use it for a while, but not so long that the authorities can link it to you. Before your minutes run out, you drop it on the street and you pick up one that someone else dropped. You tell everyone your new number, refill the new phone if you need to, use it for a few days, and then drop it and pick up a new one. Repeat. This prevents anyone from linking the phone to you. The key to prevent it from becoming absurdly expensive is twofold. First, disposable phones are cheap. Second, you're dropping your used phone into what is essentially a community pool and taking back from that pool so most of the time the new phone doesn't cost you anything.

Among the SINless in my games, burners are cheap comlinks with low-rating fake or stolen real SINs and low-end pre-paid cred accounts from extraterritorial banks loaded onto them. You pick up a burner and it probably has a couple of nuyen left in the account. You use it a couple of times at places where they don't bother asking questions, maybe you refill the cred account and use it for a while longer, and then you drop it with enough left on the account for the next guy to buy himself a soyburger and some fries and you pick up a new one. This practice allows the SINless to actually exist in the real world without leaving a traceable paper trail.


Another practice, this one common to the matrix savvy, is SIN banking. The idea is simple. There are places where everyone is expected to broadcast their SINs. Some of these places have thousands of visitors a day. You can just go to any public place and hang around for a couple of hours collecting totally legitimate SINs which you could then use a few times each at different places without arousing suspicion. The bold and the daring eavesdrop on wireless financial transactions and grab credit accounts, as well. Since the SINs are totally legitimate their is absolutely no chance that they'll fail inspection unless biometrics are called for. You keep some for yourself, sell some, and give some away to your friends. At a very popular mall you can collect hundreds in an hour.

[Cthulhudreams]

Banks care deeply about money laundering today. You should see the amount of money that is being spent on anti money laundering measures. it's keeping entire businesses in business.

The fact that they don;t care in the future is another 'I belive' button to prevent shadowrun turning into minority report.

[hyzmarca]

Banks care deeply about money laundering today. You should see the amount of money that is being spent on anti money laundering measures. it's keeping entire businesses in business.

The fact that they don;t care in the future is another 'I belive' button to prevent shadowrun turning into minority report.

Banks care about money laundering today because their are laws and regulations that make them care. Putting your loyal customers in prison is not a sound business practice. Getting shut down and dismantled by the government is even less sound. If you take away the threat of the latter then sane responsible banks will stop doing the former.

[masterofm]

Yes there are areas in the 4th ed where you will get slammed for not constantly transmitting a SIN.... the again after both crashes for crimminies sakes there are many people left w/o a social identity number to call their own. What about those people? Also think about the rating of your SIN and the rating of the SIN detector. If you look up rating in the BBB 5-6 is what the military is packing as far as scanners are concerned, so if you are walking around w/ a rating 4-6 SIN I think your in the clear. In a world where there are hundreds of cameras, and no one wants to share whatever information they obtain why does it matter that there is always a camera? The fractured system between corps and the government means that the UCAS can't just waltz in and ask for the data feed from a Renraku facility, and vice versa. According to raw a r1 SIN scanner has a 1 and 6 chance of critical glitching. Other then that if you are walking around with basically a military grade fake SIN I think that entitles you to a lot.

Also have you considered the setting? The barrens? Seattle? L.A.? These are places where you might even stand out against the majority if you are sporting an awesome SIN. There is a lot of gray and that is why shadowrunners stay low and cover their ass. Other then that though there are places where the system of I.D.s totally works and a majority where it doesn't. Why is that such a problem?

[Cthulhudreams]

Banks care about money laundering today because their are laws and regulations that make them care. Putting your loyal customers in prison is not a sound business practice. Getting shut down and dismantled by the government is even less sound. If you take away the threat of the latter then sane responsible banks will stop doing the former.

Unlike today where banks are corporations in their own right and the biggest in the world I might add, in the Shadowrun future, the banks are ALSO the major industrial corporations AND the government. Note that anyone money laundering is almost certainly guilty of having committed a crime against those corporations almost by defintion, starting with tax and duty evasion, violating distribution agreements and culimating in actually having murdered bank employees.

All the governments desires today are going still be with the banks in the future, because instead of the government regulating the banks, the government IS the bank.

[masterofm]

I thought the corps are the banks as well... corp script anyone? If there are countries that are willing to launder money no questions asked wouldn't there still be places for that in the future? Maybe they take 15%, but still.

[Method]

Discarded burners would also explain where all those squatters get their commlinks. I like it.

[hyzmarca]

Unlike today where banks are corporations in their own right and the biggest in the world I might add, in the Shadowrun future, the banks are ALSO the major industrial corporations AND the government. Note that anyone money laundering is almost certainly guilty of having committed a crime against those corporations almost by defintion, starting with tax and duty evasion, violating distribution agreements and culimating in actually having murdered bank employees.

All the governments desires today are going still be with the banks in the future, because instead of the government regulating the banks, the government IS the bank.

Governments have an implied contract with their citizens to provide for the citizens' welfare. Corporations have an actual contract with their shareholders to maximize profit. Actual contracts trump implied contracts.

[kzt]

I thought the corps are the banks as well... corp script anyone? If there are countries that are willing to launder money no questions asked wouldn't there still be places for that in the future? Maybe they take 15%, but still.

There are very few countries. Nobody wants to end up like North Korea. North Korea's world trade (in heroin and forged $100s) got shut down when the western banking system pressured the one bank in the world (In Macau) that would do business with it.

There are places that will launder money. Most are in out the way places, doing business with people they will never see face to face. I'm told the rates for cyber criminals are up to 50%. And there isn't anyone blowing up the money launderers yet.

[kzt]

Governments have an implied contract with their citizens to provide for the citizens' welfare. Corporations have an actual contract with their shareholders to maximize profit. Actual contracts trump implied contracts.

No they don't in SR. They maintain standing militaries, for gods sakes. And in SR EVERY mega is controlled by one or two people. The rest of the "stockholders" can go piss up a rope.