Initiative Passes, Making Wired *slightly* less important? Options

[Eyeless Blond]

I've had an idea kicking around in my head for awhile on how to make variable initiative passes work in SR4. At the same time, I've also been hearing mumblings about how Wired reflexes and other initiative pass boosters are too powerful, or at least too ubiquitous, and how combats tend to be too short since everyone draws a gun and caps someone else inside of three seconds.

Here's what I have so far. Initiative is rolled as normal, and calculated based on Score + successes, as normal. You number of initiative passes are equal to the successes rolled divided by two, rounded down, minimum 0. If you have zero initiative passes, you are essentially out of that round of combat: you do act in the first pass, same as everyone else, but you cannot take an offensive action. You can enter full defense, dive for cover, run away, etc. but not move offensively.

Wired Reflexes and other initiative boosters allow characters to gain one pass per success on the initiative test, up to a maximum of the initiative booster rating. For instance, a character with Wired Reflexes 2 gains 2 initiative passes from his first two successes on the initiative test, but would require a total of 4 successes to gain a 3rd initiative pass.

[ElFenrir]

Well, I think EVERYONE should be able to get at least one pass. One Offensive pass, at least. Now,perhaps injury can make their Initative 0 somehow, ok, then i could accept just not going.

If anything, I wish it went back to how it was, here...in the sense you got to choose from Boosted Reflexes as well.

We've seen folks with multiple IPs in SR4. They don't seem to be that horrifically overpowering.

Yeah, i think mundanes should be able to grab one more pass-kinda like in SR3, if you had 1d6+5, you had that shot at getting 2 passes. it was rare, but there.

I miss the Boosted Reflexes. They had that disadvantage-they were permanent, the person couldn't get em removed to get replaced with Wired or Move By Wire(if i recall), and while they could stack with the Synaptic Accelerator...that SA was expensive as hell. Also, no Control Rig for these folks, so any Rigger type was sorta screwed.

But right now, Initative options are:

Magic. Get a mage to cast the spell on you...if you have a mage. A mage can bind a focus, yes. They could in the old days, though. No change here, really. Adepts too, at the expensive cost...to the point where it's almost cheaper to spring for the Synaptic Boosters.

Wired Reflexes. Fairly cheap, very expensive on Essence.(Well, they always were, though they ARE a craplot cheaper now.)

Synaptic Boosters. Essence friendly, extremely expensive. (Again, like the old days.)

Move By Wire. Essence costly, pretty nuyen costly, but yeah, they do alot. (Again, old days).

Edge. Yep, spend Edge to get a pass. Someone who pumps Edge won't have a problem.

Drugs. Side effects, natch.

Ok, so that IS alot of ways. Back then, it was the same...only replace Edge with Boosted Reflexes.

But no Boosted Reflexes. They were great for that low-end runner on a nuyen/essence budget to grab a second pass; hell, if they wanted to spring more, they could get up to 2 more passes, but that did eat some essence and nuyen up. But those level 1 boosted reflexes were great...one extra die, 15k nuyen, .5 essence.

If they brought them back, i'd be happy. Im sort of wondering if they ditched them BECAUSE of the Edge bit, though. Not sure here. But i know that after awhile, im a bit tired on having to either spend 1.6-2 essence, 2 Magic Points or 9 BPs of my Resources on ONE extra pass.

Come to think of it, it might be good a more lightly-cybered or very low Essence(who can't afford much more) mundane to just pump the Edge and Reaction(the latter is cheap), and get their passes that way.

[Stahlseele]

first:
combat drugs?
second: Atlas shrugged, i would probably not use Wired Reflexes, never did in SR3 because to me, initiative wasn't all that important to begin with, even as the combat-monster . .
third: isn't there such a thing allready? if any one attribute is somehow reduced to 0 you're paralyzed and don't get to do shit o.O

[Eyeless Blond]

Huh, I'm surprised at the number of people who don't like the idea of combat being longer (IC time-wise, not necessarily OOC time-wise). It seems to me that SR is, as some people put it, "a game of eggshells and hammers", with combat being resolved essentially as quickly as it takes for the speed sam to shoot X = number of combatants times.

That said, how about keeping the proposal, but leaving it at minimum 1 pass?

Maybe in addition, a glitch on the initiative test means that you "stumble out of the gate" and take a -2 to all tests in your first pass of that combat turn? That might do just as well, with some characters deciding to stagger to cover if they fumble or lose confidence with their weapon?

[Stahlseele]

i don't know why people allways complain about the fights being over too quickly . .
if the fighting gets slower, you could play chess instead . . and because the other guys get backup, your 16 pieces stand against several dozends that number and every time your number of pieces is reached again, there's at least one queen in there . . please excuse me for my outburst, but i like my combat being over fast enough that with some speedy RUNNING i can still accomplish my goals even if an alarm has been sounded because i am NOT nailed down untill a small army comes to take me away . .

[cryptoknight]

Umm... mundanes can get more than 1 IP.

1. They can burn edge (or group edge if necessary)
2. They can take drugs
3. They can be the recipient of an IP boosting spell

So I don't see the problem?

[ElFenrir]

Honestly, if your proposal of roll as normal, then divide successes by 2, round down, and get that many passes(minimum 1?) I like that. Alot, to be honest. I'd have to see it in action and let it be playtested a bit but it sounds nice.

Problem is with the possibility of 0 passes, it could REALLY hose 'average opposition' more than it can the Runners.

Now, again, it depends what games you play. In ours, the 'usual' opposition, in a 'typical, garden variety run', are indeed mooks form the book. I mean, it's dangerous still; enough people shooting SA at you with 8 dice a pop will hit some, and it will add up, and it will hurt, and they have numbers.

But when they have a Reaction and Intuition of 3, they might well be getting 0 passes, and even on full defense, with their meager stats, will proceed to get hosed by PCs who are rolling 11-13 Initative dice alone(which will average a couple of passes.)

With this method, pretty much everyone gets a shot. PCs don't have to lose almost half their essence or nuyen to get a second pass(or overspend on Edge...what if they don't see their character with luck of the gods?) , Boosted Reflexes don't have to be reintroduced, and at least 1 IP folks have a shot at getting a couple(and maybe even more if they do some Reaction pumping.)

Again, i'd give it a go at some point, test the waters.

[vladski]

I've posted this before, about a month ago. This is how I have tried to make initiative passes a little less blase', regular, and monotonous:

I think Initiative Passes in SR4 are too pre-ordained.

In SR3, no matter how much "initiative" a player had, there was always a chance that they would be slow... or at least slower. Several Wired 3 characters had guaranteed 2nd passes (barring injury) in my SR3 game, but they still might be slower sometimes than many Wired 1 characters due to the roll of the dice. On average they would be going "first" but not always. And they never knew for sure how many passes they were gonna get (often 2, sometimes 3) until those dice were rolled. It was possible to build a non-wired character and actually get a second pass on a good roll. Those players were always excited when this happened.

With 4th Edition, passes are automatic for the most part. No matter how lousy you roll Init, you are gonna have that many passes. It has made the value of Init passes jsut sky rocket, with the unwired (or unmagicked) characters sucking hind tit every single turn. Maybe the designers actually intended to make assorted improved reflex type stuff that much more potent, but to me it has lost some of the ... zing. It's too predictable.

I jsut preferred the ...more randomness of the old initiative. And the fact that while it was more "likely" that you would get more passes, it really wasn't written in stone how many you had. Or how many that little shrimp you were planning on beating up had. You still always knew 9 times out of ten who was the bad ass. But there was always that "occasion."

So, I created this solution to my perceived problem:

Roll your Initiative as normal: Roll X Init dice and add the successes to your Init score. This is your actual Initiative.

Then compare the number of hits you had on the roll to the below chart to determine Passes:

* 2 hits , you get your 2nd pass (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for it)

* 3 hits, you get your 3rd and 4th (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for them)

and then to jsut shake things up and make it fun:

* 4+ hits on your test, you gain a second pass (if you are unwired/unspelled.)


A non-wired guy is probably tossing around 6-7 dice on average for Init, so 4+ hits won't come up that often, but when it does, it will give them that nice lucky shot. And he is still only picking up a second pass occasionally.

A wired guy is probably tossing around 8-11 dice, so he is more than likely to always make his threshold for his multiple passes... but sometimes not. A little give in the system. A little "let's see how the dice play out."

Things to consider:
There are no additional dice rolls and it's really not hard at all to count your hits and figure out your number of passes, so, it doesn't slow the game down any.

It doesn't substitute a system for the game, only adds to it. So, major game balance isn't thrown off.

Anyway, I started using this with my players as a test and all of them decided that they liked the feel of it better, as well. And this was my issue! None of my players had ever actually complained about it. But, they thought the new way was more realistic, even tho' it actually can penalize the characters with any form of boosting... occasionally.

__________________________

Supposedly, a few people liked it after I posted it and said they were going to try it in their game. I have yet to hear back from anyone tho' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I wouldn't mind feedback.

Vlad

[Chibu]

Adepts too, at the expensive cost...to the point where it's almost cheaper to spring for the Synaptic Boosters.

Yep, (in 2ed) my favorite character, Nightshade, is an adept. After about a million runs he had some cred laying around. He was running for personal reasons, not really for the money. But, he wanted to be faster. So, he got a Synaptic accelerator because the rules for adept initiative increases are even worse in 2nd. (Actually, He had it specially made effectively getting it cultured even though ti already technically is) That and Enhanced Articulation were as fast as he ever got. All-in-all he (I (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) thought it more prudent to spend the 920K to get the extra 2d6 + 1 than to waste power points. I mean, he really did have the money to throw around though, we're talking a character that got 300+ karma over the time we played. (One time he sprang like 200K to throw a party and invite all of Haiti as a distraction to steal some stuff from a hougun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

But, I think that having extra initiative passes over unaugmented metahumans is a very important aspect of Shadowrun. It's showing that my magic or technology (or both!) we can become harder, better, faster, stronger. This is one of the key elements of cyberpunk. In my opinion only second to "Style over substance." So, I don't think that the Wire should be weakened. I think that norms just need to get with the game. If they refuse the benefits of magic and cyberware, so much more is their folly. This is the way of the world chummer. Catch the train, or be left behind.


EDIT: Oh wow, so I just read Vlad's post and the 4th ED Initiative rules. I just figured they were pretty much the same as before. I agree vlad, that sounds kinda boring. I like my regular guys with their d6+5 initiative. I like my tricked out sammies with 4d6+22. Ya know? It's all about the character. But, there's always a way to be faster. Like you've all said, even if it's drugs or going running 47 miles a day (to have a reason to raise your quickness above racial max (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). But really, if you can't afford to be faster, then you'll just have to be smarter and more accurate. That's all there is to it, ya know?

[ornot]

My biggest problem with initiative enhancers is that everyone takes them because they are so very useful. They make you better/more effective at ranged combat, melee combat, hacking in AR, driving, spell casting. Hence every character has some combination of wired reflexes, synaptic accelerators or increase reflexes spell, at the expense of other options.

My personal choice is to limit the applications of initiative enhancers, rather than alter their integral workings. For example, it makes no sense to me that a gun in the hands of a wired individual can fire three times faster than it can in the hands of an un-enhanced character. Hence I limit guns to the listed cycle rate (the most bullets that can be fired in one round by a normal user by RAW). This means that a PC with extra IPs can limit their recoil penalties by spreading out their fire between their IPs over the whole combat turn.

For fluff (and balance) reasons, I limit spells to one per combat turn. I justify this by saying that mana must be channelled through the magician's body, to cast the spell, and how fast their brain works has no bearing on how damaging this is to the mage (channelling too much mana causes drain, at least by my interpretation of magic fluff).

I restrict hacking/decking to 1 AR action per turn, although I will re-evaluate this when Unwired comes out. Driving, meanwhile, comes up rarely enough for it not to be an issue.

[Malicant]

Weapons do not fire faster with more IPs. It just appears that way.

[ornot]

Weapons do not fire faster with more IPs. It just appears that way.

I'm sorry, but they do.

Someone with one IP can fire a single full auto burst comprising 10 bullets in a combat turn. Someone with 3 IPs can fire three full auto bursts comprising 30 bullets total. Considering that full auto capability is described as a weapon firing as long as the trigger is held down, are you suggesting that augmented individuals hold down the trigger for three (or however many extra IPs they get) times as long?

I understand that the cycle rates modelled in SR4 are far lower than are available in real life, but how much more book keeping do you want to deal with?

[Kerberos]

I'm sorry, but they do.

Someone with one IP can fire a single full auto burst comprising 10 bullets in a combat turn. Someone with 3 IPs can fire three full auto bursts comprising 30 bullets total. Considering that full auto capability is described as a weapon firing as long as the trigger is held down, are you suggesting that augmented individuals hold down the trigger for three (or however many extra IPs they get) times as long?

They could? The recoil on the weapon might make shooting more than 10 bullets per combat turn pointless for the unaugmented character. The augmented can compensate better and thus keep shoting longer, while accomplishing something besides wasting bullets. It does make sense in most situations I'd say, and as for the situations where it doesn't make sense? *closes my eyes and chants "the rules are abstract"*

[krakjen]

I'm sorry, but they do.

Someone with one IP can fire a single full auto burst comprising 10 bullets in a combat turn.

So, suppressive fire using 20 bullets use some kind of magical mechanism?

Old ass assault rifle like the AK47 already have a 600 rounds/min (10/s -> 30/turn) rate of fire and more modern weapons easily go up to 900rpm (45/turn).
The thing is, prolonged automatic rifle is impossible to effectively control, so a limit to 10rounds/phase seems legit.
And when EVERYTHING is moving slower, I guess it's easier to compensate, hence the heavy wired manage to shoot more bullets efficiently in a given time.

[ornot]

So, suppressive fire using 20 bullets use some kind of magical mechanism?

Fair enough... I missed that bit.
But that still doesn't explain how your WR2 individual can fire 30 aimed bullets, and possibly 60 rounds using suppressive fire, all in the same time frame that the unaugmented character can only let off 20 rounds (which strangely makes an area saturated with fire until their next action phase, suggesting that the weapon is firing continually).

Old ass assault rifle like the AK47 already have a 600 rounds/min (10/s -> 30/turn) rate of fire and more modern weapons easily go up to 900rpm (45/turn).
The thing is, prolonged automatic rifle is impossible to effectively control, so a limit to 10rounds/phase seems legit.
And when EVERYTHING is moving slower, I guess it's easier to compensate, hence the heavy wired manage to shoot more bullets efficiently in a given time.

I already posted that the SR4 cycle rates are not comparable with real life cycle rates, so your point about AKs is entirely tangential.

The difficulty of controlling automatic fire is modelled by the recoil modifiers. What else do they represent?

E2A

They could? The recoil on the weapon might make shooting more than 10 bullets per combat turn pointless for the unaugmented character. The augmented can compensate better and thus keep shoting longer, while accomplishing something besides wasting bullets. It does make sense in most situations I'd say, and as for the situations where it doesn't make sense? *closes my eyes and chants "the rules are abstract"*

Fair enough... The rules are abstract. You don't need to justify WR3 allowing a higher rate of fire than WR1. But if one chooses to do so (as we on DS are wont to do) it's not hard to do. I choose to impose cycle rate limits, which makes mooks with assault rifles more of a threat in my game, and makes IP boosters less of a must-have, although still useful in some circumstances (and hence pertinent to this thread).

[Werewindlefr]

I already posted that the SR4 cycle rates are not comparable with real life cycle rates, so your point about AKs is entirely tangential.

The difficulty of controlling automatic fire is modelled by the recoil modifiers. What else do they represent?

Especially since I don't recall germans stoping after having fired 10 rounds with their MG42. It might make "sense" with assault rifles which are rarely used with more than 10 bullets (but then, what prevents a character for *trying* and taking heavy recoil?), it's just completely nonsensical for fixed MMGs.

Where I live, we have a way to deal with that kind of problem; I could translate it by "shut up, it's magical!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . That's the only solution left.

[ornot]

Especially since I don't recall germans stoping after having fired 10 rounds with their MG42. It might make "sense" with assault rifles which are rarely used with more than 10 bullets (but then, what prevents a character for *trying* and taking heavy recoil?), it's just completely nonsensical for fixed MMGs.

Where I live, we have a way to deal with that kind of problem; I could translate it by "shut up, it's magical!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . That's the only solution left.

I'm sorry... I don't really know what you're getting at. My point is that the cycle rates (aka as number of bullets fired in a round) should be the same for augmented as unaugmented characters. Whether that number is represented by 10 bullets per round or 50, it's dependent on the gun, not the shooter.

[krakjen]

If you don't like it, why not houserule that a player can only fire one long/full burst by initiative phase and voilà?
Gameplay-wise I don't like it much...

[krakjen]

Especially since I don't recall germans stoping after having fired 10 rounds with their MG42.

Yes, because everyone knows the germans were turn-based attackers...

[Malicant]

I'm sorry... I don't really know what you're getting at. My point is that the cycle rates (aka as number of bullets fired in a round) should be the same for augmented as unaugmented characters. Whether that number is represented by 10 bullets per round or 50, it's dependent on the gun, not the shooter.

The cycle rates are the same. The weapons don't fire faster, it would be silly otherwise. Someone with more IPs is just able to utilize more of the weapons potential.
A full burst does not mean you pull the trigger and don't stop until your next turn. A full burst is just the limit of control you can have in one complex action, or something like that. So, the more IPs, the more complex actions, the more control over your weapon, the more full burts.

[Nightwalker450]

I'm sorry... I don't really know what you're getting at. My point is that the cycle rates (aka as number of bullets fired in a round) should be the same for augmented as unaugmented characters. Whether that number is represented by 10 bullets per round or 50, it's dependent on the gun, not the shooter.

The enhanced reflexes allow you to aim and actually have a chance to hit more often. Yes everyone can fire the same number of rounds per combat turn. If you have a mundane that wants to shoot as many times as the WR3 person, he can. The first shots from the semi-automatic he rolls for, the other 6 rounds are just lost and hit nothing. Unless he wants to spend a point of edge then the first 4 shots are rolled for and 4 rounds hit nothing. I recommend conserving the ammo and only pulling the trigger when you have the semblance of a chance to hit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

With the Suppressive fire, I believe it was in a different forum where we figured out how this worked. Suppressive fire isn't so much holding down the trigger and spraying rounds all over, as it is firing many quick short bursts whenever a person enters or leaves your area. Thats why someone who stays in suppressive fire only gets shot once (on the start of the suppression). Someone with multiple IPs though could suppressive fire each pass and have a chance to hit the person who's just standing there. Holding the trigger is more of a wide full-burst but its a lot more concentrated.

[ornot]

Yes. You can justify ammo consumption and firing rates and extra IPs and everything else with whatever fluff you like. Per RAW you can fire 3 full auto bursts with a tricked out Ingram Whiteknight with no recoil in one combat turn from chargen. And this only uses 30 bullets.

I'm not debating that.

I was, in reference to the OP, describing how I attempted to make initiative boosters less ubiquitous in my game.

Insisting that WR are teh l33t kinda misses the point.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Has anyone mentioned the following:

Mundanes CAN have more than one pass, even without combat drugs - spend an edge point to get an 2nd pass (upper limit of 4 IPs) p. 134 SR4.

[krakjen]

Hmm one thing I never wondered, does it stacks?
Can a mundane take combat drugs AND spend an edge to have 3 passes?

[Werewindlefr]

I'm sorry... I don't really know what you're getting at. My point is that the cycle rates (aka as number of bullets fired in a round) should be the same for augmented as unaugmented characters. Whether that number is represented by 10 bullets per round or 50, it's dependent on the gun, not the shooter.

I'm saying that "it's because people stop firing due to recoil" is an half-decent excuse for an assault rifle, but it's not for a machine gun put on the ground. In real life, people can fire for several seconds with a MG without stopping. Therefore, there is no way to male sense of the higher firing rates from people that have several initiative pass. It's just an abstraction, which works in some situations and is completely absurd in a very few specific situations, such as a person firing a very long full-auto.