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> I need help with the RP
piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 07:31 PM
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Now here is the problem i have, the four people in my group (me, my bro and some of his friends) play SR4, its all fine and we have fun with missions, but when it comes to the end with the gm giving us karma, normally everyone will get the same amount besides me. I do not get the "Good RP" part that everyone else seems to get.

Now i dont want to get left behind and i have tried RP better but to no avail.

So my Shadowrunner wants to be remebered, he dosent want to be forgotten as soon as i die, i want to be famous for my martial arts (my GM only owns the core rule book so i cant use anything from any other book) at first when ever we had some free time, it be camping or on a plane, i would ask questions and found out how something works, cause my shadowrunner beliefs, knowledge is power, the more he knows the better he will be. now me asking questions and recording what i see, my GM said was just a quirk and he didnt give RP karma for, he says i my guy has to have needs and wants.( Example is the cowboy in our group, When we were in town he went and got himself a toy girl, or whenever he shoots, cause he gets 18 dice with his revolvers, he always adds a little flair, like how he spins his guns after he shoots. GM said his wants was the toygirls)

So i ask you and advice on how i can better RP my character so dont get left behind by the party.

If you need any more info, which you might, please ask me and ill try to help as best i can
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Malicant
post Apr 14 2008, 07:53 PM
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Any chance your GM hates you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 08:00 PM
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it might be a possibility, i have thought about that, but im not sure it is the case
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Apr 14 2008, 08:08 PM
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This is probably thoroughly unhelpful in terms of getting your GM to award you as much karma as everybody else, but it seems to me that you ARE role-playing your character. Quirks are what make us who we are. Simply by stating that your character believes that knowledge is power, you're demonstrating that this character actually has a system of thought that creates a framework for future actions to fit into. That's one of your wants right there--knowledge. And it's not even the only want of your character's that you mentioned in your post; you want to become famous for your martial arts. Seriously, your post wasn't very lengthy, and it still managed to fit in more RP depth than I've seen at some gaming tables.

Whenever I start playing a new character, I always worry that I'm being too munchy, or too boring, and that I don't have a good feel for the character. The back story I come up with at the beginning ALWAYS feels contrived. But after I've played him for a while, I start thinking about the character more and more often outside the game. If you're having daydreams about your character, I'd say you're on a right track (there's possibly other right tracks, too; I'm just saying how it works for me). The more YOU know about the character, the more you'll just naturally play it, and it will show.

Another thing I'd keep in mind is: your character isn't always on a run. Martial arts and thirst for knowledge are two pretty time-consuming interests to have, but that aspect tends to get overlooked because they both have tangible impacts on your running ability. Does your character have any more casual pursuits that have nothing whatsoever to do with a run? Non-run-related hobbies aren't necessarily the mark of a better role-player, but they are more obvious, in terms of getting the GMs attention so he gives you that extra karma point.

Also, you should ask your GM to look into getting Arsenal. I know it's a lot of money, but it's worth it, especially if you can find a used copy or find some other way of cutting costs. Get creative. It will benefit all of you, so maybe you can work out some sort of cost-sharing plan. I've been playing since SR1, and have been bitching about most SR books that have come out since I was in high school (the last 4 years of SR2), but the SR4 books have been done well, and I highly recommend them. Arsenal in particular will be helpful for your martial artist character.

Anyway, lots of luck.
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Dumori
post Apr 14 2008, 08:11 PM
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Just a plan but treat your runner as a monk of some type make a list of rules/morals and try to up hold them. No sex before marriage or even no sex at all and things like diet restrictions try to spend some nuyen on stuff that just fleshes out who you are such as only eating fresh food when possible. Just ideas but with stuff similar to this the GM cant say or nor RPing well. When you resting waiting say your mediating practicing moves and such for flare have strong views on killing always pray before or after the act and if you forget act upset and not honoring your foes. As for more help a bit of back ground and or stats could help.

A good background helps roleplaying as you can tell what you would do and why.
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piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Apr 14 2008, 01:08 PM) *
This is probably thoroughly unhelpful in terms of getting your GM to award you as much karma as everybody else, but it seems to me that you ARE role-playing your character. Quirks are what make us who we are. Simply by stating that your character believes that knowledge is power, you're demonstrating that this character actually has a system of thought that creates a framework for future actions to fit into. That's one of your wants right there--knowledge. And it's not even the only want of your character's that you mentioned in your post; you want to become famous for your martial arts. Seriously, your post wasn't very lengthy, and it still managed to fit in more RP depth than I've seen at some gaming tables.

Whenever I start playing a new character, I always worry that I'm being too munchy, or too boring, and that I don't have a good feel for the character. The back story I come up with at the beginning ALWAYS feels contrived. But after I've played him for a while, I start thinking about the character more and more often outside the game. If you're having daydreams about your character, I'd say you're on a right track (there's possibly other right tracks, too; I'm just saying how it works for me). The more YOU know about the character, the more you'll just naturally play it, and it will show.

Another thing I'd keep in mind is: your character isn't always on a run. Martial arts and thirst for knowledge are two pretty time-consuming interests to have, but that aspect tends to get overlooked because they both have tangible impacts on your running ability. Does your character have any more casual pursuits that have nothing whatsoever to do with a run? Non-run-related hobbies aren't necessarily the mark of a better role-player, but they are more obvious, in terms of getting the GMs attention so he gives you that extra karma point.

Also, you should ask your GM to look into getting Arsenal. I know it's a lot of money, but it's worth it, especially if you can find a used copy or find some other way of cutting costs. Get creative. It will benefit all of you, so maybe you can work out some sort of cost-sharing plan. I've been playing since SR1, and have been bitching about most SR books that have come out since I was in high school (the last 4 years of SR2), but the SR4 books have been done well, and I highly recommend them. Arsenal in particular will be helpful for your martial artist character.

Anyway, lots of luck.

Thanks for the help, as for non-runner hobbies, he cooks, i could RP that more, as i dont
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piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 14 2008, 01:11 PM) *
Just a plan but treat your runner as a monk of some type make a list of rules/morals and try to up hold them. No sex before marriage or even no sex at all and things like diet restrictions try to spend some nuyen on stuff that just fleshes out who you are such as only eating fresh food when possible. Just ideas but with stuff similar to this the GM cant say or nor RPing well. When you resting waiting say your mediating practicing moves and such for flare have strong views on killing always pray before or after the act and if you forget act upset and not honoring your foes. As for more help a bit of back ground and or stats could help.

A good background helps roleplaying as you can tell what you would do and why.

thanks alot, that actually got me thinking, i can make a list of morals, the only problem i see it with being a monk, is that they give up worldly possesions, so any armor i have or a commlink might go against the whole monk thing,
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piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 08:18 PM
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oh also i know my GM will probably pop his head in here, for what he says, please take that into consideration, because i might be thinking i am doing more that i actually am.
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Dumori
post Apr 14 2008, 08:31 PM
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Well it does depend on the order your part of but as long as your not to silly with things some modern monastery allow for traveling members to just give a percentage of there wealth to the monastery monthly or yearly. If you do something like this don't be to greedy or to selfless as being greedy detracts form the point but giving away too much can be game busting around 10% normally works (maybe your GM would/could give you some kind of bonus for donating to the needy). But I assume your a unarmed adept type so gear is lees important than karma. Also you could just follow a strict code not being part of a monastery as such but are determined to help people with your strengths running against the corrupted oppressive corps with Robin Hood type ideals what you get form killing those gangers running rackets round your area could be given back to the one they stole from may keeping just a bit to get by with for food gear cloths and some where to stay you could call your self a squatter or live on the streets hiding you true power form the general public. If you’ve read Watchmen a bit like Rorschach (he was an oppressed street bum/slummer turned batman like crime fighter). But its all up to you what ever make you got that’s my runner.
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nezumi
post Apr 14 2008, 08:38 PM
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1) Watch some martial arts movies and read everything you can from the poster here by the name of Wounded Ronin. These will give you the background you need to better fill out your martial arts character, especially in a Shadowrun context (albeit, more of an SR2/3 context than SR4). Hopefully they'll also give you ideas for better descriptions for your moves. If you can paint the scene for your GM, it may make him feel you're playing more. Also, feel free to say you subscribe to a particular style, like gym-kata or ninjitsu, even if you don't have the rules to support it.

2) Develop your character's cause for pursuing martial arts. What are his goals? Is he training to win the secret karate world-championship tournament held in Taiwan? To avenge the death of his adopted Asian-mentor-father, who was killed by the mysterious red ninja and his ninja goons? To stop getting picked on at school? How does the character's take on martial arts add or subtract from shadowrunning? His art really should be distinct in this regard.

3) Develop your character beyond just martial arts. Does he have a love interest? A black friend he can rely on for help? Does he paint or collect expensive cars? The more little details you add, the more he'll stand out as a person and not as a two-dimensional character. If you were to sit down with him over a round of beers, what would you talk about? Who would he vote for in this election? This sense of the character is important to develop. I've found it helps to find a few concise quotes to help me get in character.
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masterofm
post Apr 14 2008, 08:40 PM
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Some people view good RP not as saying what your character does when there is no importance. For instance saying you start shooting your pistols in a fancy way in the air, but when you interact with other NPC's/PC's does this come into play? Would your character start causing a scene? Is the game setting pink mohawk or in the shadows kind of game. Get a feel for your character and play him even during the nitty gritty of a run. Do you try doing other interactions that have the feel of your character. Try making him interesting instead of a stereotype, because some GM's will give karma based on RP that is entertaining. Asking tons of questions, because "knowledge is power" it might not be that you are asking interesting questions. If you are setting up camp and asking things that the GM should assume that a person in that setting should already know then no you don't get karma for good RP. It might just end up bugging the GM and drawing away from the story that he or she is trying to weave. If you make things interesting or ask questions that might add to the story telling then maybe the RP karma, but asking about how hot the campfire is, and what type of logs are being used, and can you see more stars here then in the city I don't think would fall under knowledge is power. Honestly if you thought knowledge is power then it might actually cause the curiosity killed (or at least maimed) the cat syndrome. If there is something in the middle of a room that is an oddly shaped wonky piece of metal would your character go closer to inspect it or maybe even pick it up to examine it in further detail?

In the end some GM's look at how you deal with people according to your character, and making his/her job easier through good RP might be the reason your GM might not be giving you bonus karma.
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KurenaiYami
post Apr 14 2008, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (piiman @ Apr 14 2008, 12:18 PM) *
oh also i know my GM will probably pop his head in here


Why would he do a thing like that?

But seriously, to get RP Karma, you have to actually RP. Your character doesn't have "quirks" that have showed themself in game. He has one quirk. Singular. You're simply repeating that quirk as a lab rat pressing on that bar, expecting a pellet to come out.

I have my laptop in those sessions for a reason. You realize that, during play, you average 47 words per session in reference to your character? And most of those are just describing what you do in combat. You haven't even told me what he looks like!

Here's what your character has done so far:

Meditated/practiced kung fu in Central Park.
Asked the pilot how the plane worked, and wrote it down.
Told the mysterious robed man (who turned out to be Mr. Pickleberry) to empty his guns if carried any.
Introduced yourself to the Johnson (I think. I can't recall this one for sure, but you may have told him your name.)
Talked to a drug dealer.
Rufied a guard.
Questioned said guard, briefly.
Copied the runes on the gunslinger's guns.
Asked the Technomancer if he knew why the giant Drone was chasing you.
Said "you can stay with me" when the Technomancer needed a place to stay.

And that was over the course of 21 hours of play time. 21 real world hours.

And shocking as it may sound, this is your liveliest character yet! The other two or three faceless character sheets didn't do nearly as much.

Now, if you want to roleplay the silent type, that's fine. But then you have to step up and describe actions. Hell, make him perform actions.

So, 47 words in a ten hour session does not equate to "good roleplaying" as dictated in the Karma Awards section as I see it, and I'm yet to hold a conversation with the other members of the group in which they disagreed with this assessment.
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masterofm
post Apr 14 2008, 09:21 PM
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Yup I totally called it
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Malicant
post Apr 14 2008, 09:31 PM
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Some people are just innately bad at RP. Or simply lack experience. If you award bonus karma for XP and have such a player in your group... well, it's not really fair, hence not really fun for that player, especially if he actually thinks he is not doing wrong.
If he tries, no matter how bad he is at it, give him some points. It's more productive that way and he might improve over time. Or at least he does not feel like an outsider for being bad at roleplaying. Most importantly, give him some advice.

If on the other hand he is just trying to get some easy karma without effort, break his pinkies, or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Apr 14 2008, 09:45 PM
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Now this is why i rarely award karma for roleplaying, if you have to wave carrots in front of the players just to grasp the fundamental concept of roleplaying.. they've missed the point and you can just go pink mohawk all the way.
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KurenaiYami
post Apr 14 2008, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Apr 14 2008, 01:31 PM) *
Some people are just innately bad at RP. Or simply lack experience. If you award bonus karma for XP and have such a player in your group... well, it's not really fair, hence not really fun for that player, especially if he actually thinks he is not doing wrong.
If he tries, no matter how bad he is at it, give him some points. It's more productive that way and he might improve over time. Or at least he does not feal like an outsider for being bad at roleplaying. Most importantly, give him some advice.


They've all been playing P&P RPGs longer than me, so I wouldn't say experience is the factor.

As for giving him advice, we've discussed it over IM for roughly three hours. I'm out of advice. I can think of nothing else to tell him. What's sad is when I read the opening post and realize that out of those three hours, he remembers 1 sentence, AND he misconstrues what I said. That burns.

As for his effort, and how hard he's trying...uh...that one's not an easy call. Out of the sessions, he's always pestering me for ways of improving his character RP-wise. Though he didn't do that until it started costing him Karma, so it may just be for that. Back when we did D&D and SWSE and I didn't do much in the way of RP experience, he didn't really care.

But when he gets into a session...he doesn't do anything. See the 47 word thing in my previous post. We've all had the same amount of experience with RP, yet he's constantly lagging behind. Actually, he's done more than me. He just focuses on the tactics of combat...sort of. That makes it sound like he'd be a good tactician, and I don't want to give that impression. Though he does attract a lot of fire, and I guess every bullet that hits him is one less that can hit his teammates.

QUOTE
If on the other hand he is just trying to get some easy karma without effort, break his pinkies, or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Well, I've already shoved him through a window. Does that count?
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Malicant
post Apr 14 2008, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (KurenaiYami @ Apr 14 2008, 11:49 PM) *
Well, I've already shoved him through a window. Does that count?

Point for effort, definitely.

You might want to consider to award him karma for catching bullets that would otherwise harm other people.
I know similar situations (and players), so I can understand how you feel, partially, but remember that the game is about fun, which he might be losing right now. If you award others for good RP, maybe award him for stuff he is good at, or at least he does kind of well. Like catching bullets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 14 2008, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Apr 14 2008, 04:31 PM) *
If he tries, no matter how bad he is at it, give him some points. It's more productive that way and he might improve over time. Or at least he does not feal like an outsider for being bad at roleplaying.

QFT. It's a game, not a college drama course. If someone is putting due effort into the game, they should probably get their rewards, rather than being judged against some objective standard of good RP that exists in one persons head and may or may not be explained as well as they think.
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 14 2008, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Apr 14 2008, 04:45 PM) *
Now this is why i rarely award karma for roleplaying, if you have to wave carrots in front of the players just to grasp the fundamental concept of roleplaying.. they've missed the point and you can just go pink mohawk all the way.

I award karma for RP, but I award group karma, not individual. If there was good RP at the table, then everyone was having fun, mission accomplished, karma for all. If I don't give that award then it means no one was putting effort into RP, so no one can be mad that anyone else cost them an RP karma. Yes, that means some people sit quietly, I don't see that as a problem.

Of course, I generally do all group karma, plus 1 point (sometimes more) awarded strictly by player vote, for "best moment", which can be due to RP, an amazing roll, an amazing plan (IC or OOC), a joke, an amazing assemblage of snack-foods which will be talked about for years, or pretty much anything anyone did to make the session memorable and fun for all.

Obviously every GM has their own scheme for dolling out the good stuff, so YMMV.
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sunnyside
post Apr 14 2008, 10:18 PM
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Ok. Now we've sort of got two things here a player who wants to RP more and a GM that ( I think) wants him to RP more as well. Actually more than that it sounds like he just doesn't go much period.


To the player. For one thing try to get a life outside of the runs. Don't blow a lot of game time at it or you'll be resented. But spend some time doing things not related to shadowrunning.

In game you might have a problem of having a one dimensional character. If all you can do is fight, well, it's always harder to have a really interesting character. Also you'll tend to be redundant. Pretty much ever character in SR can fight.

You might want to talk to your GM about scrapping your current character for one that has more proactive skills, a rigger, hacker, or even a mage. Maybe a guy with a lotta contacts or a face. Something to get you out in front.


To the GM. Throw the guy a bone. I've taken a whole lotta people other GMs thought were hopeless and seen them really evolve as players. I suppose the simplest trick for this is to give them someone to care about. A lot of the people who are the worst at RP are quick to latch onto a Female NPC that's scared and for some reason attaches themselves to them. They can develop a lot.


A problem you might have is if your group is large and/or has a "leader" who tends to run the whole show. But that's something else.
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Aaron
post Apr 14 2008, 10:43 PM
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How to Be A Better Roleplayer in One Simple Step

  1. Affect an accent when speaking in character.

Seriously. It doesn't even have to be a good accent. Heck, it doesn't even really have to be an accent, just a way of speaking. Maybe your character uses long words (or short ones) exclusively. Something that differentiates your character's speech from yours.

Sure, it won't do much at first, but it will convey a lot of benefits. It will immediately tell others when you're speaking, as opposed to your character. It will also start shaping other PC's interactions with your character, which in turn will shape yours. Most importantly, it will help differentiate your character's persona from your own.

Incidentally, this technique is called "finding your character's voice." I learned about it from Erik Wujcik, who I suspect is actually a role-playing deity made flesh. It's a great way to develop your character.

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Malicant
post Apr 14 2008, 10:49 PM
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piiman
post Apr 14 2008, 11:02 PM
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thankyou all for your advice, ill think about it all and try it next session. Also anyone else, i would still like to have more advice, it is always useful
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KurenaiYami
post Apr 15 2008, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 14 2008, 03:18 PM) *
You might want to talk to your GM about scrapping your current character for one that has more proactive skills, a rigger, hacker, or even a mage. Maybe a guy with a lotta contacts or a face. Something to get you out in front.


We tried the Face thing once. That was his first character, actually. But he refused to talk to anybody, so he gave up on it. Of course, if he'd like to scrap this one, he's welcome to. At this point, his characters (as well as his brother's) are just guest stars in the show, their to help the guys who have actually kept their characters from the beginning, so having it happen again wouldn't really bother me.

As to wanting him to roleplay more, I don't really mind either way. But he's not getting bonus points for being lazy.

How he can seem so very concerned about RP out of game and then do nothing at all in-game astounds me. If I saw any of the effort he puts in out of game within the 10 hour session limit, I'd award some Karma.

Of course, if all he's after is Karma, as I suspect he is, there are other ways to get it, so maybe he should focus on that.
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Particle_Beam
post Apr 15 2008, 01:54 AM
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Abolish Karma-Awards for Roleplaying. It was always a bad idea in every RPG that exists. Nobody really knows how to play your character besides you.
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