[X] My Assistant

[hermit]

Punk: [shouting] "Get outta the car, bitch, or I'm gonna blow your brains out!"
Donny: "You gotta be shittin' me."
Punk: "I *will* shoot you, dammnit!"
[Donny takes his gun and knocks him out]
Freb: "Damn!"
Donny: "You lazy, half-ass bully! Any asshole can pull a gun on somebody! You don't know the first thing about stealing a car! Boy! You need a role model!"
- Gone in 60 Seconds (2000-Edition Remake)

Man, I'm really quoting the movies today!

Works only in the movies, dude. IRL, Donny would have been shot dead, because the punk would point the gun at him and shoot when he lunges to grab his gun.

Go talk to any rape or mugging victim, I'll bet that they'd all wish that they had a GUN with them to protect themselves with. You see a gun is the great equalizer, it doesn't take that much training to learn how to shoot it (and I'm not talking about trick shots here, just aim at the center mass) and protect yourself from that doped up/lunatic/insane/plain criminal meathead that thinks his greater strength is enough to overawe you.

The gun is going to do the rape vic a fat load of good if it's the raper's gun at their forehead. You see, the equalising works two ways. And the dopehead might just shooot you because you MIGHT have a gun, anyway. Just so you don't shoot him n the back.

You have to have the dealer call the FBI and check your criminal record. You don't have to do that for a car....

... because cars have uses other than committing crimes, yes - and yes, shooting someone in most cases is a crime. Self-defense isn't about gunning anyone down you think suspicious. If that dopehead never threatened you, it's murder second degree for you.

[CanRay]

Works only in the movies, dude. IRL, Donny would have been shot dead, because the punk would point the gun at him and shoot when he lunges to grab his gun.

BAH! Donny just needs wired reflexes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[hermit]

If you find them on amazon or dell, drop me a link, will you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

If you find them on amazon or dell, drop me a link, will you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm still gunnin' for a Datajack!

[IQ Zero]

The gun is going to do the rape vic a fat load of good if it's the raper's gun at their forehead. You see, the equalising works two ways. And the dopehead might just shooot you because you MIGHT have a gun, anyway. Just so you don't shoot him n the back.

Okay hermit, look at it another way.

If everyone (without a criminal record or is not mentally disabled) is given the legal right to bear firearms, and say someone tries to rape a girl. Yes he might have a gun, so would the girl. Maybe he gets the drop on her, maybe not. Maybe some other soul overhears the commotion and checks it out with his/her gun in hand. He/she sees the rape going on, shoots the perp.

The equalizing does NOT work both ways. You see, if the dopehead figures out that EVERYONE packs a piece, he might just decide to not do the rape/theft/mugging since he might get killed. On the other hand, if he does anyway, wouldn't you just love to have that gun with you when he tries it on you?

And yes, a close family member of mine was raped, gang raped in fact, in the university, by a bunch of drunk frat boys. The neighbors overheard it, but since they had no weapons, they were too scared to do anything.

Think of it that way, what if it was YOUR daughter? YOUR sister? YOUR WIFE? Wouldn't you wished that they at least had the means to try to defend themselves?

[Fuchs]

Hermit, I think you do not get that most crimes - by far the most crimes - are done with illegally acquired or carried weapons. All you would accomplish is making sure no one but criminals has guns. Your crazy neighbor would still have a gun. Your rapist would still have a gun. Your punk carjacker would still have a gun.

You, your family, your friend who likes target shooting, any other law-abiding citizen would not have a gun.

All you would be protecting and make safer would be the criminals.

[Critias]

Disarming good guys only helps bad guys. Period.

But it makes the hand-wringers feel like they're accomplishing something -- nevermind the violent crime rates in New York City, DC, Philadelphia, all over California, Detroit, Chicago -- so they just keep on passing stupid laws and making sure the law-abiding folks can't have a gun on them when they need one.

[hermit]

Your crazy neighbor would still have a gun.

Uhm, no. He didn't. It's not as easy to get illegal guns over here than going to an arms fair in Virginia. If guns, illegal ones too (like I said above) are controlled tightly, it DOES make the environment a little safer. Moreso than when everyone is packing and we have an arms race spiraling out of control.

You see, if the dopehead figures out that EVERYONE packs a piece, he might just decide to not do the rape/theft/mugging since he might get killed.

No, since you assume the dopehead will think rationally. He'd not be a dopehead to begin with if he did.

And yes, a close family member of mine was raped, gang raped in fact, in the university, by a bunch of drunk frat boys. The neighbors overheard it, but since they had no weapons, they were too scared to do anything.

Assuming everyone has a gun, the frat boys would too, so the neighbours wouldn't help for fear of walking into a frat boy's shotgun fire when kicking in the door. No gain at all.

Think of it that way, what if it was YOUR daughter? YOUR sister? YOUR WIFE? Wouldn't you wished that they at least had the means to try to defend themselves?

Prpably. That wouldn't be me rationally thinking then, though. Rationally, that'd only help if the perps would not have guns, or the relative would have lighning reflexes and a full tactical training under her belt.

On the other hand, if he does anyway, wouldn't you just love to have that gun with you when he tries it on you?

Yes. I'd love it even more if he had no gun and wouldn't exist to begin with, though, so that's more my kind of approach - tight gun control and ensure work pays enough that no significant poor underclass that generates mugging, gun-toting dopeheads to begin withexists. Also crack down hard on illegal gun sales.

I'm still gunnin' for a Datajack!

I'd love to have that link too ...

[CanRay]

Disarming good guys only helps bad guys. Period.

I know that if I were a crook (And I'm not), I'd follow the cops on "Guns are now illegal" day, see which houses the Cops raid to sieze firearms, and know just the places to hit in the near future.

Hey, and look, the cops even kicked the doors in for said criminals! Isn't that nice of the Jackboots?

[Critias]

Yeah. Blame the fact gun control laws don't work on "gun fairs in Virginia." Nevermind that less than 2% of firearms in America used to commit a violent crime are from gun shows or the imaginary "gun show loophole," the news said gun shows are evil places where you can stock up on all sorts of firearms and no one looks twice at you, so it must be true, right?

[hermit]

Should I better blame it on on nonexistent registering of fireamrs sales? Or maybe on gun companies selling to anyone, no questions asked? Maybe gun control doesn't work because there's lots of work doen to ensure it doesn't? You see, it does work in other countries, so the reason for why it doesn't must somehow be native to the States.

[Critias]

Right. Because, of course, you're the expert here about how gun sales work in the States, right?

[Fuchs]

Uhm, no. He didn't. It's not as easy to get illegal guns over here than going to an arms fair in Virginia. If guns, illegal ones too (like I said above) are controlled tightly, it DOES make the environment a little safer. Moreso than when everyone is packing and we have an arms race spiraling out of control.

All I can say is, if keep thinking that, you may sleep easier, but you'll still be wrong. Once you look into this (hint: Eastern Europe), you'll know that one can get guns easily, especially thanks to Schengen. If you want an illegal gun, you'll get one, easily. Especially if you're a criminal with contacts. But even without them, just go into the red light district, and ask around.

Also, you are wrong if you expect everyone to be packing just because they can. As I said, for decades, everyone could be packing in half my country, but rarely did so.

[Fuchs]

Should I better blame it on on nonexistent registering of fireamrs sales? Or maybe on gun companies selling to anyone, no questions asked? Maybe gun control doesn't work because there's lots of work doen to ensure it doesn't? You see, it does work in other countries, so the reason for why it doesn't must somehow be native to the States.

Gun control doesn't work, Hermit. All it does is keep police manpower from going after criminals by keeping them busy with enforcing gun laws. Criminals use illegal weapons anyway, mostly handguns because they are easier to conceal.

[IQ Zero]

Uhm, no. He didn't. It's not as easy to get illegal guns over here than going to an arms fair in Virginia. If guns, illegal ones too (like I said above) are controlled tightly, it DOES make the environment a little safer. Moreso than when everyone is packing and we have an arms race spiraling out of control.

Either its not easy or you just don't know where to find the proper contacts.

No, since you assume the dopehead will think rationally. He'd not be a dopehead to begin with if he did.

Dopehead doesn't necessarily mean stupid you know, although admittedly most have room-temperature IQs.

Assuming everyone has a gun, the frat boys would too, so the neighbours wouldn't help for fear of walking into a frat boy's shotgun fire when kicking in the door. No gain at all.

I'd hate to live in your neighborhood then, since everyone is so afraid. In my area, we all pretty much are used to the idea that most of the neighborhood owns guns. Just a few months ago, a dopehead tried to rob 3 schoolgirls from a small school a few blocks from my house. Within 30 seconds, about 6 guys (corner store owner, 3 neighbors who were about to leave their homes, and 2 members of the neighborhood watch) had guns on him. Then the braniac tried to run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

You see, once you get used to feeling helpless, you stay that way. On the other hand, very few criminals get away from our area ... come to think about it, very few try to come in anymore. And yes, we do rotate duties being part of the neighborhood watch, 1 day every other month.

Prpably. That wouldn't be me rationally thinking then, though. Rationally, that'd only help if the perps would not have guns, or the relative would have lighning reflexes and a full tactical training under her belt.

Even if the rapist had killed the girl, shoot him anyway. If enough rapists dies, and they keep on dying, pretty soon you'd have no more rapists (or at least those that are stupid enough to do it in the city.)

Yes. I'd love it even more if he had no gun and wouldn't exist to begin with, though, so that's more my kind of approach - tight gun control and ensure work pays enough that no significant poor underclass that generates mugging, gun-toting dopeheads to begin withexists. Also crack down hard on illegal gun sales.

Ever read any history? Think of Prohibition ... that's right, outlaw booze and what happened? Same thing with anything people want or more importantly, feel that they need.

[hermit]

Right. Because, of course, you're the expert here about how gun sales work in the States, right?

Then enlighten me, please. Why is gun crime so much more common in the states with it's highly armed, defense-capable populace than in countries where noone can defend themselves against all these heavily armed criminals?

Ever read any history? Think of Prohibition ... that's right, outlaw booze and what happened? Same thing with anything people want or more importantly, feel that they need.

The interesting part is that a ban on guns works in many countries (like Japan).

Even if the rapist had killed the girl, shoot him anyway. If enough rapists dies, and they keep on dying, pretty soon you'd have no more rapists (or at least those that are stupid enough to do it in the city.)

America would have to be pretty short on muderers by now if that reasoning applied. Actually, they ought to have died out long ago, since abolishing deaths entences is a very novel idea, historically.

I'd hate to live in your neighborhood then, since everyone is so afraid. In my area, we all pretty much are used to the idea that most of the neighborhood owns guns. Just a few months ago, a dopehead tried to rob 3 schoolgirls from a small school a few blocks from my house.

In the seven years I lived in mine, noone attempted to mug anyone. Yeah, we're dead scared. So much we gotta arm up and form our own little milita for fear of muggers with obviously readily acvailable guns from muggers' market or whereever, because the cops can't do that job by themselves (which is why they get our tax money, after all).

No offense to you personally, but I see you treating symptoms of a disease that isn't going to get better with your approach.

[Fuchs]

Then enlighten me, please. Why is gun crime so much more common in the states with it's highly armed, defense-capable populace than in countries where noone can defend themselves against all these heavily armed criminals?

It's not because of guns, or we'd have much more crime here in Switzerland. Also, most of the gun crimes in the US happen in areas (cities) where gun ownership is restricted, and are done, once again, by illegally acquired or carried weapons. You don't get much crimes in rural areas, where many are armed.

Maybe try to see the big picture, Hermit. Guns don't cause crime.

[Critias]

Look at where the gun crime takes place. Look at who's committing the overwhelming majority of the crimes. Look at what those people do for a living (or lack of one). Look at what other convictions those people have. Look at the folks who are usually the targets of their crimes, and the convictions those people have. When you're finished, and have painted the picture of who is committing most such crime and why, take a look -- a hard look -- at the gun laws in those areas, compared to the gun laws in other areas of the country where crime is much lower. You'll find the disarmed populace being preyed upon by the wolves amongst the urban flock, and a whole bunch of rural folks with a whole bunch of guns doing just fine.

Blaming guns for drug-related urban crime is like blaming pencils for bad test scores, or knives for emo kids cutting themselves. Stop blaming the tool, start blaming the person wielding it. It's not rocket science.

[CanRay]

Illegal weapons get moved around and bought everywhere.

I grew up in Northern Ontario. In the only city in Northern Ontario, and there are Illegal guns there. There is, in fact, only a few gun stores in the city, most being Canadian Tire (A Huge Hardware Store Chain). And one small, hidden, out of the way place, and stocked with hunting rifles and a few pistols locked in a double-safe.

That said, fully-automatic weapons *HAVE* been siezed numerous times by the Cops. I've seen a few thanks to connections I had at the local Militia and the Museum they have at the Armoury, as a few of said weapons were of World War II "vintage" (One was a recently made Thompson Semi-Auto "SMG" that was illegally converted to Full-Auto.).

Now, that's in a fairly peaceful city when it comes to gun crime, so, thus, low demand. Sure, more than your typical percentage of brawls and knife fights, but what do you expect for a Mining City?

A city with a large demand? They'll get 'em in. Smuggle them in, ship them in, bribe Customs to get them in.

We play SHADOWRUN for frigs sake, and understand the basic idea of the "Black Market Economy" better than the average person. Sure that doesn't make us experts, but would you see your Street Sami buying a Ares Alpha from some Gundealer if he just picked it up from a Gun Sale, registered requirement or no, and it still had it's serial numbers on it?

No. More likely, we'd pick up some beat-up AK-98 that's been kicking from one end of the world to the next.

[Fuchs]

If we follow the "guns kill people, ban guns" delusion, we'll have to castrate all men to avoid rape. Same mentality.

Either you trust the majority of your citizens not to committ crimes, or you don't. But if you think everyone is a criminal, why allow them to vote?

[CanRay]

If we follow the "guns kill people, ban guns" delusion, we'll have to castrate all men to avoid rape. Same mentality.

Either you trust the majority of your citizens not to committ crimes, or you don't. But if you think everyone is a criminal, why allow them to vote?

Wish I could remember where this quote came from, and I'm sure I'm misquoting it:

"Cops tend to group people into three places: Brother Cops, Citizens, and Crooks. Brother Cops are the only ones you can trust. Citizens are the ones that need protecting. Crooks deserve nothing but what they get, and then some. Thing is, the longer you're on the job, the more blurred the line between Citizens and Crooks becomes, until all you care about are your Brother Cops."

[hermit]

Either you trust the majority of your citizens not to committ crimes, or you don't. But if you think everyone is a criminal, why allow them to vote?

So why again are most hard drugs illegal? By that reasoning, you can trust your citizens to responsibly handle anything.

"Cops tend to group people into three places: Brother Cops, Citizens, and Crooks. Brother Cops are the only ones you can trust. Citizens are the ones that need protecting. Crooks deserve nothing but what they get, and then some. Thing is, the longer you're on the job, the more blurred the line between Citizens and Crooks becomes, until all you care about are your Brother Cops."

The movie 'Colors', I think.

[CanRay]

So why again are most hard drugs illegal? By that reasoning, you can trust your citizens to responsibly handle anything.

Here's a better question, why are some soft drugs ILLEGAL?

[hermit]

Because they have a strong rooting in western culture and religious practice (alcohol) or have been around for a long time, don't make anyone go mad and only damage the user (more or less, Tobacco). Also possibly because people occasionaly love to get wasted and will get pissy if they have absolutly no way to (which si why prohibition didn't work).

So, if we were to legalise guns for everyone, why not drugs?

[underaneonhalo]

This not having much to do with shadowrun, I don't feel like reading the whole thread so I'll throw my 2 cents in based on the first page.

From my personal experience (having several family members who have rap sheets as long as my leg) criminals purchase firearms off the street, but where do street guns come from? they're grabbed during home robberies. Why do they buy them off the street? Because it's registered to someone else and more importantly it's dirt cheap. Seriously would you rather pay 700-1200 bucks on a gun you're probably going to have to throw away, or 200? It's basic economics, the less you spend on the materials for the job the more crack you get. Anyways it's not like people robbing gas stations have a lot of money to begin with.

Merchants at gun shows (in the us) have a Federal Firearms License, this is required to deal arms in any form. One of the provisions of having an FFL is that every gun you purchase for inventory is registered to you, and a federal agency (can't remember which one) has the right to visit you at a random time once per year to confirm that every gun that is registered to you is accounted for. When the gun is sold the customer fills out a brief form, shows ID, and then a call is made to the FBI for a quick background check (and it is amazingly quick for anything federal), the check is passed, the serial number is read to the FBI guy and logged to you, and then the gun is handed over, and forms are mailed away to DC. The only difference between buying at a gun show and a gun shop is the price is usually cheaper (due to show merchants having far less overhead) and you don't have to wait 30 days for a handgun.

As for wally world playing big brother on gun sales, you can't walk 5' in that place without bumping into a tv screen trying to indoctrinate you into consumer slavery, it's already 1984 over there so go to Target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Ok I just scrolled down and saw Hermits post so let me just add this link because the whole article is very interesting but Section VI is particularly relevant saying

Two thirds of all 1992 US murders were accomplished with firearms. Handguns were used in about half of all murders. Sharp instruments were used in 17% of murders and blunt instruments in about 6%.

Gun control laws are stiffer in Canada, and many claim this accounts for the murder rate being lower in Canada than in the United States. 65% of US homicides were committed with firearms, versus 32% in Canada. However, a large American study indicated that liberalized laws for carrying concealed weapons reduced murder rates in the US by 8.5%. US homicide rates in the year 1900 were an estimated 1 per 100,000 -- at a time when anyone of any age could buy a gun. Statistics-gathering may have been less thorough at that time -- and few people had the money or interest to buy guns. But American gun supply (including handguns) doubled from the 1973-1992 period, during which homicide rates remained unchanged (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 4-Aug-2000, p.A10).

Politicians in Massachusetts have cited the State's tough gun control laws as the reason for its low murder rates. However, the adjacent states of Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont have some of the least stringent gun control laws in the US, yet the first two have lower murder rates than Massachusetts and the murder rates in Vermont are comparable to those in Massachusetts. Murder rates in Boston increased 50% in 2004 over the previous year, while murder rates in Los Angeles, Miami, Washington and many other major cites saw murder rates decline.

I live in Kennesaw, GA. A town that has become rather famous for the fact that we have a law stating that every land owner must own at least one firearm and ammunition (it was passed in 1982 btw and ammended in '83 to allow for conscientious objectors) and over 10 years burglary dropped 89% in Kennesaw. Some people have cast dispersions on our claim of lower crime but being wedged between two cities with drastically higher crime rates I think it works.

That being said, I will not come back into this thread because quite frankly I don't give 2 shits about what's said in here, this pops up every now and then and it has NOTHING to do with the game.