[X] My Assistant

[Cthulhudreams]

I guess it's more about society as a whole - most of our criminals are foreigners, most of them either illegally here (Drug dealers are mostly illegal immigrants looking for work and not getting any, thieves are often "crime tourists" coming from poorer countries, and just visit to steal stuff) or not very integrated (which is the case in the majority of the vandalism I encountered in my work at court.)

Yeah the illegal workers and migrants are the ones not benefiting from an average wage three times the european average and the social safety, healthcare and education system.

To give this a shadowrun angle, as the huge sections of the population are disenfrancised, don't have healthcare, education or jobs, crime rates should be astronomical by todays standards.

Edit: Ps, of course you have less bloody cops than germany, not only do you have less people, giving you less of a base to draw from for large event management (the size of the event doesn;t get smaller for small countries, you need a fixed number of police, but with a smaller population the force to draw from is smaller), germany has a very high number of police. Switzerland is on par per captia with the UK and the US, AND has much higher wages and less poverty (thus less crime) than both.

[hermit]

Lots of kids learn how to drive at fifteen, so they can go get their driver's license as soon as they turn sixteen. But, hey, way to toss in yet more little jabs, insinuations, and insults about Americans and how they drive, in that paragraph. In fact, it's kind of funny that you're so desperate to explain why Americans need to be saved from themselves (by disarming everyone), while in the next breath talking down to us about how restrictive our traffic laws are and what timid, emasculated, drivers we are (when traffic accidents kill many, MANY, more people every year than firearms).

You brought that one up, Critas. Also, I said Americans were much less aggressive drivers than Europeans. How exactly I am insulting you there is a bit of a mystery to me. Didn't mean to at least.

Besides, while you see everything I say as somehow insulting your nationality, you deal out surprisingly well against me.

I do see a point in saving loads of money you'd otherwise have to spend on driver's school (though I vaguely remmeber that's not the one and a half year, $4000 enterprise it is over here, but I guess it would still show in a family's budget) with having your kid practice illegally - and since the US is far more widespread, it might even be viable. Over here, it'd cost a bunch of money and, if I was legal guardian and the kid didn't steal my car, likely my license, too (the new one carring a €1000 price tag on top of whatever the judge decides to slap me with). Guess you could get away with that if there were miles on end of back roads, like in the states, with noone nearby.

And I don't get your post about our cops. Francophone cops are recruited for francophone cantons, german speaking ones for german speaking cantons. Shouldn't be hard to recruit more in either area if we paid them more. It's not as we have a centralised police and would send cops from one area to the other. That would be pretty stupid - cops need to understand the people in the area they work in.

Ah, thought you had a federal police to handle such crimes. My bad then, I guess.

So, based upon my experiences, I can honestly say that gun control, as in "keep weapons out of citzen's hands by making them illegal" won't cause crime to go down. Legally owned and carried weapons simply do not cause more crime. On the contrary.

Fighting illegal gun owndership HAS to be a part of any sensible gun control policy. It should be regardless what the legal status of civilian gun ownership is (and yes, civilian gun owners ought to be registered). If not, the whole gun control thing is pretty retarded indeed.

We've got less cops than Germany. Far too few to handle big events like the Euro 2008, or the WEF - we usually need the army and borrow cops from France and Germany for those.

Good luck with police nationale units. From my exüperience, they really love a good brawl.

[Fuchs]

Also, teaching fifteen year olds to drive cars? Well, maybe, with your virtually turnless roads and sluggish top speeds, that might work, but wouldn't that still be underage driving? Besides, would you let your kid drive unsupervised? I know I wouldn't, but when I was last in the states, I noticed people driving incredibly passive, slow, and carefully, so that might work there (it'd be sending your kid to certain death here though).

This should be telling you something. Americans start to drive earlier than Europeans, learn it in school, and apparently, they end up driving more responsibly, less agressively.

Maybe teaching the kids about such stuff works?

"Was Hänschen nicht lernt, lernt Hans nimmermehr"?

("What little John won't learn, Adult John won't ever learn")

[hermit]

Possibly (it would also cheapen drivers' licenses significantly and cut down on those corrupt TUV and DEKRA driving schools). That'd definitly requite saturdays school again, though, and that'd be pretty unpopular.

It's more of a mentality issue though, I guess. Especially Germans and French tend to drive like their cars were tanks or something.

[Critias]

I'm not sure why we're hung up on it, but for the record, it's not illegal to let a kid learn how to drive at 15. There are learner's permits available (depending on where you are, exactly, they can be gotten by kids as young as 14, IIRC). I'm not talking about sneaking a teenager out into the middle of nowhere to let them get behind the wheel, or something.

Quick wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learner's_permit

[hermit]

Interesting (and yes, that's just what I assumed). That'd be illegal here. You can start driver's school at 17, though. It takes some one and a half years anyway. Cars are legal starting at 18, small motorcycles and quads at 16. larger motorcycles and vehicles at 20 or 21.

[Fortune]

... with having your kid practice illegally ...

Again you are making assumptions. In quite a few states it is legal to get a learner's permit to drive at 15. I even believe there are a few that allow 14 year olds to get one of these. In Canada, I know that in Ontario it is legal to get you learner's permit at 15 (at least it used to be, because I did it!), and in some states in Australia the law is similar. A learner's permit typically allows a person to drive as long as they are accompanied by a licensed driver, and may or may not have other restrictions like maximum speeds, or restricted roadways or time frames and the like.

Edit: Too many damn tabs! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[IQ Zero]

(EDIT: This was in response to IQ Zero and Hobgoblin.)

I missed this branch of conversation, earlier -- for those wondering what might happen in a community where everyone owned a firearm, and more specifically those who are curious about how it might play out in America rather than overseas (given some cultural shifts, etc, between nations), google "Kennesaw, Georgia" some time. It's an Atlanta suburb that passed an ordnance in the early 1980's, requiring every household to keep and maintain a firearm and ammunition (with exemptions possible for concientious objectors).

Their crime rate, compared to that of their neighbors -- Atlanta itself included -- is pretty impressive. They've got a fairly respectable 2,500 or so people per square, mile, too, last I heard. It's not some rustic little rural hole-in-the-wall, but a good sized town.

Thanks for the heads up. So far it matches up to what I experience here where I live. We are the only part of Metro Manila with a city ordinance allowing home owners to own pistols and shotguns, since the ordinance passed, incidence of crime has dropped by almost 90%, shootings and robbery are almost none existent (as compared to before the law was passed, the average "salvage" rate here was 1 a week). AFAIK, the only crime element to go up is gambling and prostitution (both hidden behind other businesses) but with an impressive (to me) safety record (gambling isn't rigged, prostitution while still illegal, is monitored).

[Fuchs]

I always wonder why people are so concerned with guns but don't advocate locking cars to the maximum legally allowed top speed. Speeders kill a lot more people than gun users.

[Fortune]

Thanks for the heads up.

Look, I know you have been asked politely at least once now, but I'll try once again. Could you please just use the normal default font and text size for your posts? Thanks in advance for your consideration.

[IQ Zero]

Look, I know you have been asked politely at least once now, but I'll try once again. Could you please just use the normal default font and text size for your posts? Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Pardon me, that is the same size font (2), I just changed the font itself. Is using a different font bad?

[hermit]

I always wonder why people are so concerned with guns but don't advocate locking cars to the maximum legally allowed top speed. Speeders kill a lot more people than gun users.

Because cardrivers' associations are Europe's answer to the NRA. And yes, I do like speeding. Also, it's noteworthy that in countries with no such practice, the rate of traffic-related deaths is as high or even lower than in countries with strict and comparably strictly enforced speeding limits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fuchs]

I do not know of any country where cars are mechanically locked so they are unable to exceed a legal speed limit. But my point is: if we trust car drivers not to abuse the ability to speed, why don't we trust gun owners not to abuse guns?

[CanRay]

Because guns are bad and scary and make big noises and frighten little children.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN???

[Larme]

On the whole we do trust law abiding citizens with guns. Americans have a relatively high number of guns per capita. Some states are trying to target gun crimes by going after guns. Will it work? I would point out that countries where civilians cannot legally own guns, like Britian, have much lower violent crime than we do. So do other countries with many more guns -- Canada has a higher gun per capita ratio, and lower crime.

So the answer must be either that

a) having more guns or having less guns will decrease violent crime, which must mean that America has exactly the wrong number of guns

or

b) the number of guns has little to do with crime rates.

I think b is the more likely answer. People commit crimes because it's economically beneficial to take the risk. They make more money committing crimes than they could doing honest work, because honest work is too hard to come by, and without years of education it will never pay beyond an essentially subsistence level. If America's wealth were spread out a little more, instead of concentrated in the hands of 2% of the population, we would probably still be one of the richest countries in the world while also having low crime. Guns or no guns, people need economic opportunity or they'll turn to crime. But anyone who's telling us that we can magically erase crime by restricting/handing out guns is full of it.

[hermit]

I do not know of any country where cars are mechanically locked so they are unable to exceed a legal speed limit. But my point is: if we trust car drivers not to abuse the ability to speed, why don't we trust gun owners not to abuse guns?

Because they harm numerous others when doing so, while car drivers often only harm themselves when driving their cars into trees? Besides, there are numerous regulations in place to minimise car ownders abusing their cars in one way or another. And while cars are pretty integral to modern societies (mobility and all), guns aren't, so it's easier to ban them.

Also, cars are already fairly well documented; guns aren't. You have to mount license plates onto your car in the states. You don't have to register your gun like that, for all I know. You can just walk into a supermarket and buy yourself a gun. You can't buy a car like that (again, for all I know).

[CanRay]

Because they harm numerous others when doing so, while car drivers often only harm themselves when driving their cars into trees? Besides, there are numerous regulations in place to minimise car ownders abusing their cars in one way or another. And while cars are pretty integral to modern societies (mobility and all), guns aren't, so it's easier to ban them.

Also, cars are already fairly well documented; guns aren't. You have to mount license plates onto your car in the states. You don't have to register your gun like that, for all I know. You can just walk into a supermarket and buy yourself a gun. You can't buy a car like that (again, for all I know).

Not in Canada.

My Father had to go through five kinds of hell registering the family rifles and shotguns.

All of which had been deactivated, and confirmed as "Unsafe to Fire" by a Registered Gunsmith almost a decade beforehand.

Fixing them would have taken more time and effort than it would have taken to build one from scratch, and used the same equipment.

The Gun Registry, however, is a major political issue in Canada, as it's massively overbudget, did *NOTHING* on violent crime, and, frankly, I'm willing to put money there's more than one Redneck family in the Northern Parts of Canada (Which describes most of the Country!) where: "Yep, we registered all our Firearms, Uncle Sherrif. See, there's the Registry on the family .22." "Good 'nuff for me. Moose huntin' next weekend?" "You know it!"

But, honestly, I only know rumours about those kinds of things...

[hermit]

Well, but the OP of this thread was displaying displeasure at being filmed buying a gun at walmart with a faked license, so ... I guess in the states, guns aren't registered like that.

[Fuchs]

Because they harm numerous others when doing so, while car drivers often only harm themselves when driving their cars into trees? Besides, there are numerous regulations in place to minimise car ownders abusing their cars in one way or another. And while cars are pretty integral to modern societies (mobility and all), guns aren't, so it's easier to ban them.

Also, cars are already fairly well documented; guns aren't. You have to mount license plates onto your car in the states. You don't have to register your gun like that, for all I know. You can just walk into a supermarket and buy yourself a gun. You can't buy a car like that (again, for all I know).

Car drivers harm many more innocents than gun owners.

If we start down the road of "guns are not needed, so let's ban them to save lives" we're on the road to locking up cars, banning tobacco, alcohol, fat food, overweight and similar health risks, to required exercise per week, and similar laws.

Safer? Maybe. But definetly not free anymore. Would you want to live in such a world?

[CanRay]

Safer? Maybe. But definetly not free anymore. Would you want to live in such a world?

Snake Plissken: "Got a smoke?"
Malloy: "The United States is a non-smoking nation! No smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women - unless you're married - no foul language, no red meat!"
Snake Plissken: "Land of the free."
- Escape from L.A.

[hermit]

If we start down the road of "guns are not needed, so let's ban them to save lives" we're on the road to locking up cars, banning tobacco, alcohol, fat food, overweight and similar health risks, to required exercise per week, and similar laws.

That's the trend in western societies, in a nutshell. don't forget controlling climate gas emmissions. We're only years from some greenies campaigning to tax farts.

But unlike all the other things, guns serve no purpose other than to kill. That kinda puts them apart from cars, burgers, and a non-sporty nerd lifestyle. Tobacco (and propably alcohol too) is going to be banned in a few years anyway.

Do I prefer that? No. However, I DO prefer a society where I don't have to worry about my nutcase neighbour buying an assault rifle and gunning me down because he has serious delusions, or about being mugged by someone with an Uzi and shot just because, either. Or South African style car jackings. Pity www.crimexposouthafrica.org went offline.

[CanRay]

Or South African style car jackings.

Punk: [shouting] "Get outta the car, bitch, or I'm gonna blow your brains out!"
Donny: "You gotta be shittin' me."
Punk: "I *will* shoot you, dammnit!"
[Donny takes his gun and knocks him out]
Freb: "Damn!"
Donny: "You lazy, half-ass bully! Any asshole can pull a gun on somebody! You don't know the first thing about stealing a car! Boy! You need a role model!"
- Gone in 60 Seconds (2000-Edition Remake)

Man, I'm really quoting the movies today!

[kzt]

I'm talking of course about the Philippines where life is cheap.

I think that was also true before they had easy availability of guns.

[kzt]

Also, cars are already fairly well documented; guns aren't. You have to mount license plates onto your car in the states. You don't have to register your gun like that, for all I know. You can just walk into a supermarket and buy yourself a gun. You can't buy a car like that (again, for all I know).

You have to have the dealer call the FBI and check your criminal record. You don't have to do that for a car....

[IQ Zero]

That's the trend in western societies, in a nutshell. don't forget controlling climate gas emmissions. We're only years from some greenies campaigning to tax farts.

But unlike all the other things, guns serve no purpose other than to kill. That kinda puts them apart from cars, burgers, and a non-sporty nerd lifestyle. Tobacco (and propably alcohol too) is going to be banned in a few years anyway.

Do I prefer that? No. However, I DO prefer a society where I don't have to worry about my nutcase neighbour buying an assault rifle and gunning me down because he has serious delusions, or about being mugged by someone with an Uzi and shot just because, either. Or South African style car jackings. Pity www.crimexposouthafrica.org went offline.

In my opinion, guns are the best method of "remote control" self-defense in the world.

Go talk to any rape or mugging victim, I'll bet that they'd all wish that they had a GUN with them to protect themselves with. You see a gun is the great equalizer, it doesn't take that much training to learn how to shoot it (and I'm not talking about trick shots here, just aim at the center mass) and protect yourself from that doped up/lunatic/insane/plain criminal meathead that thinks his greater strength is enough to overawe you.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

I think that was also true before they had easy availability of guns.

Give me a break, the only Latinized (read Machismo) country in Asia that is also full of Oriental guile and Western greed? Oh, by the way, guns have always been readily available here for the past 60 odd years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)

Before guns though, they'd use mostly machetes and them paired knives that later turned into stick fighting (escrima).