[X] My Assistant

[masterofm]

Ok I was thinking about the amount of dice that translate into how leety mic leet a shadowrunner actually is. Lets say people are pulling 5-7 hits on average (due to dice pools of 15-24) does it make the runs a shadow run character stand out? I mean I just think that if there are maybe five incidents where it is shown that a bullet always manages to find the same exact chink in the armor, and using ballistics they can find that the same type of rounds and gun was used would this not narrow who could have done something like that to a select few?

Lets not use guns, but instead look at the pornomancer. I don't think someone who throws 30+ dice at a situation has anything to say about not standing out like a sore thumb. An average of around 9-11 hits would probably make (insert your favorite ultra hot celeb) look like a three month old water logged corpse. Wouldn't someone like this not matter how hard they changed around their face still be easily tracked?

I would just think that an entire team that uses high dicepools are very likely be a huge flaming beacon on every single run that they attempt (assuming that the matter is investigated.) Or (and here is the important part) am I just crazy?

[Spike]

Think you're mostly crazy here.

I don't want to go to heavily into why right now, as I'm mostly hot on another topic on another forum at the moment...

[quentra]

I would think so too. It begs the question of why people with beyond world class skills are still in the shadows, and not raking in millions of yen doing other, less illegal stuff. I mean, if you don't have a problem shooting down random corpsec guards, why would you have a problem training those same guards or maybe serving on a corporate black ops team for significantly more cred?

[ArkonC]

Being extremely good at somethign and standing out are 2 completely different things, otherwise the best people would be the ones in charge...

[stevebugge]

Ok I was thinking about the amount of dice that translate into how leety mic leet a shadowrunner actually is. Lets say people are pulling 5-7 hits on average (due to dice pools of 15-24) does it make the runs a shadow run character stand out? I mean I just think that if there are maybe five incidents where it is shown that a bullet always manages to find the same exact chink in the armor, and using ballistics they can find that the same type of rounds and gun was used would this not narrow who could have done something like that to a select few?

Lets not use guns, but instead look at the pornomancer. I don't think someone who throws 30+ dice at a situation has anything to say about not standing out like a sore thumb. An average of around 9-11 hits would probably make (insert your favorite ultra hot celeb) look like a three month old water logged corpse. Wouldn't someone like this not matter how hard they changed around their face still be easily tracked?

I would just think that an entire team that uses high dicepools are very likely be a huge flaming beacon on every single run that they attempt (assuming that the matter is investigated.) Or (and here is the important part) am I just crazy?

This is going to depend largely on what those runners do with those huge dicepools. For example having 20 dice in stealth used to be sneaky isn't going to generate a lot of notice, quite the opposite it will probably almost never be noticed. Having 20 dice in thrash metal guitar and regularly putting on dazzling performances at the local bar will generate attention. Then there are things that would be harder to figure. Really good con artists can go years without ever being picked up on, or they can start attracting attention right away. My bottom line, what the runners do with those big dice pools is more important then just having big dice pools.

[masterofm]

Well yes fluff wise it doesn't work out I guess, but I always thought shadowrunners are people who have fallen through the cracks and were either once hot shots, or for one reason or another were just never were given the time of day. Forensics as of today are pretty awesome, and it will probably only get better. Lodging a bullet into the dead center of someone's eye every single time I would think stands out in an investigation. Yes I know there are people unwilling to disclose a lot of information, but seriously I would think that at least the teams crimes could easily be tracked. If the team doesn't show face, or get caught why is it so hard to believe that their actions won't stand out? There are also shadowrunners who don't throw crazy insane dice at a situation, but using custom weapons and all sorts of fancy tricks I would just think will wind up being traceable.

If a mage always walks around using mind probe and mind control, while the sniper always uses his trusty gun armed with armor piercing rounds, and the rigger uses the same three drones why is it so hard to believe?

*edit* On a side note the examples I used on people standing out I believe are valid. Someone who goes about not being seen or a sneaky conman are totally different then the crazy gun adept, or someone who really rocks on something that would draw attention. If a crazy stealth adept or mage walks into a facility w/o raising any bells and whistles and walks out with some crazy hard to get at document I would think it is still something that narrows down the pool of who could actually have the chops to do that. *edit*

[Zak]

Yea, but that has nothing to do with dice pools.

Sure you can start profiling a shadowrunner team, if there is a reason to start with it. Usually you won't have that, and if you do it is not depending on your dice pool.

[Tarantula]

Mind probe/mind control dissipate after Force hours. Doesn't matter how good you are, the signature is gone.

Always using the same equipment is horribly stupid in SR. At least, if you make a habit of leaving evidence behind. Using a generic off the shelf ares pred is a lot harder to track around than using a special custom loaded something or other gun.

[stevebugge]

Well yes fluff wise it doesn't work out I guess, but I always thought shadowrunners are people who have fallen through the cracks and were either once hot shots, or for one reason or another were just never were given the time of day. Forensics as of today are pretty awesome, and it will probably only get better. Lodging a bullet into the dead center of someone's eye every single time I would think stands out in an investigation. Yes I know there are people unwilling to disclose a lot of information, but seriously I would think that at least the teams crimes could easily be tracked. If the team doesn't show face, or get caught why is it so hard to believe that their actions won't stand out? There are also shadowrunners who don't throw crazy insane dice at a situation, but using custom weapons and all sorts of fancy tricks I would just think will wind up being traceable.

If a mage always walks around using mind probe and mind control, while the sniper always uses his trusty gun armed with armor piercing rounds, and the rigger uses the same three drones why is it so hard to believe?

That's really the essence of it. They fall in to patterns of behavior that allows them to be tracked, it's not the scale of their skill that's noticed it's the way it's used. If a sniper is always using the same gun a ballistics profile will get built up on it along with a Method of Operation profile. I think this is what the Street Cred/Notoriety/Public Awareness rules are roughly supposed to track in a very abstract fashion. Maybe the place to handle this is to periodically hand out an extra PA point, say if the team is repeatedly using the same gear and tactics.

[Zak]

... If a crazy stealth adept or mage walks into a facility w/o raising any bells and whistles and walks out with some crazy hard to get at document I would think it is still something that narrows down the pool of who could actually have the chops to do that. *edit*

Usually that pattern screams inside job.

[Tarantula]

A social conman IS a pornomancer. At least as close to one as we have IRL for example.

[Seriphen]

This also brings up another question. Do the different corps and Lone Star all share information? If you hit Ares one run and then Wuxing another are they going to share you method of operation? I could see them profiling you if you keep hitting the same corp.

[Spike]

Okay: longer response:

rolling 80 Dice to rappel down the side of a building? that's an impressive amount of dice, indeed it is. Will anyone notice?

They'll notice that the threshold was 4 and that you made it handily. Lots of people could make that threshold in the rappelling world, among them you won't stand out particularly. Oh, but then they might notice that it was during a hurricane AND a blizzard and you did it while fighting ninja! and having your arm cut off just before you started...


In other words, unless you can point to massive quantities of obvious penalties and nigh impossible feats they did with their skill? Not particularly. Just because I rolled a lot of hits on my massive dice pool of DOOM does not mean that my shot was any more spectacular than any other. What they'll see is that some guy used a 44 magnum to put one bullet into each security guard, killing each of them. Good shooting, certainly. They won't know if its because you called the shot each time or you are just damn good enough to kill with one shot apiece. They won't know all the penalities you had to overcome to do so, won't know what cool modifiers might have helped you out.

The more evidence they have of those, the better grasp of your dicepool they'll get.

Eh: there is a guy who tosses playing cards like gambit, only without the mutant power, then quickdraws a revolver and cuts the card in half in midflight. Its an impressive trick, and he's damn good at shooting from a quickdraw. But we only KNOW he's damn good because he insists on demonstrating it with every shot. He is shooting against a fuckload of penalties every time he shoots, and he hits every time.

Now: if your 'massive Dice Pool of Doom' players are regularly doing something just to make a challenge for themselves they'll stand out a hell of a lot more than if they just succeeded at more ordinary stuff all the time. Dice pools in and of themselves do not 'stand out'... its what you do with them. Do ordinary stuff exceedingly well just doesn't draw much attention. Its doing extreme stuff reliably that draws attention.

[stevebugge]

This also brings up another question. Do the different corps and Lone Star all share information? If you hit Ares one run and then Wuxing another are they going to share you method of operation? I could see them profiling you if you keep hitting the same corp.

This is an interesting question. It really depends on the Corps and the locale of the run. If all the runs happened on different extraterritorial corporate grounds probably not. On the other hand all the corps regularly spy on each other (hence why runners are in business) so even if they are not sharing the info still may get passed around. Sometimes it may be to the advanatage of two corps to work together, some corps get along better than others after all, and they might share info. Lonestar, Knight Errant, and any other contracted law enforcement cops may be required to share info with other entities (such as the UCAS FBI) as a term of their contract. Finally, while it would not be common, the information could always be obtained via legal action in the corporate court. Of course if the targets are not all extraterritorial Corporate grounds belonging to different corps (which would be more typical), repeats are more likely and patterns will start to build up.

[Larme]

If the best person ever does multiple jobs, they might assume that the jobs were all done by the same person, because no two people in the same area could be that good.

But that doesn't mean they could find the person later. Just because you're great doesn't mean everyone will know it, especially if you keep it under your hat. Or even if it's well known, people in the shadow community aren't known for volunteering information to cops or corps.

[stevebugge]

If the best person ever does multiple jobs, they might assume that the jobs were all done by the same person, because no two people in the same area could be that good.

But that doesn't mean they could find the person later. Just because you're great doesn't mean everyone will know it, especially if you keep it under your hat. Or even if it's well known, people in the shadow community aren't known for volunteering information to cops or corps.

A good real life example is the Green River Killer. A very identifiable pattern and it still took decades for Gary Ridgeway to be identified and caught.

[masterofm]

All valid points, and yes rappelling down a building like a crazy mofo would not bring the heat. Now doing it like a pro when everything around you is exploding is a different matter. Most GM's generally throw a combat situation at a team, and does the crazy gun adept whip out his gun and start nailing people with short narrow bursts to the head? Your bet your ass they generally do! How hard you bring the hammer allows people to know how hard it was brought.

Yes your signature could not be traced if someone used mind control and mind probe, but when the character who was used like a puppet finally wakes up he/she knows that they were mind probed.

Now there is something to be totally said about the amount of public data and how much an event is investigated, but don't shadowrunners build up a rep in some small way? If they do things silently and great care do they build a general reputation for it or is it only the Johnson that hired them?

I never thought having your actions be traced one way or another was a good thing or a bad thing (since there was a long discussion about how shadowrunners would probably not be totally annihilated if it was found out that they pulled a run on a facility.) I was just thinking how much does it create a stir when large dice pools come into play? 4 successes over the threshold is a critical success. If someone can constantly critical success in combat I just thought it would make some sort of pattern.

*edit* Yes not showing face = awesome, but I would just think that eventually it does create a sort of buildup that shadowrunners should know that the more runs they do it does create more standing pressure for PC's to be creative and not use plan A in every situation. I was thinking as a GM that the mounting pressure on a team to not get caught and make a run even more pro makes sense. It also would allow me to throw bigger challenges in their face, while at the same time making sure the one trick pony finds himself another trick. *edit*

[WeaverMount]

I think you would start to stand out under a large string of conditions.
1) The even is recorded and disseminated.
2) People become aware of the penalties.
3) Something like gear/ware/spell/type of spirit/MO, link enough repeated events to indicated a pattern/individual
4) You allow said profile to get linked to you

A runner should be doing everything they can avoid meeting conditions 1, 3, and 4. 2 Is unavoidable in many cases. 3 is almost completely under the character's control.

If the character are running for a cause I could see a pro-file getting build up quick. "hey para-critter research facilities are getting hit with a team that can slice though all on-site magical defenses, and use "demolish gun" cast by a shaman". If you are taking random jobs all anyone could deduce is that lots of high level jobs have magical back-up and X% of them have wreck gun used.

[masterofm]

Very true, but any GM who wants to have a good story arc will probably not just create random runs for the party to do. Very likely a team will hit a corp or government more then once (in a plot arc,) and eventually they will hit a corp more then once if they have played the game long enough.

[Spike]

Well, if this is something you want to keep in mind in a game, what you need to do is keep sort of a 'card counting' system on each potentially 'legendary' dice pool the players bring to the table.

It goes a little something like this:


Determine the 'baseline' for a shadowrunner who doesn't stand out, be it hacking or shooting or what have you. Put it in terms of number of hits if you want smaller numbers or 'DP' if you want more granularity. Either way lets say you think the 'average' Shadowrunner has a pistols of 12, say. thats a 4/12 baseline, either number works.

Now: when the player does something, determine if your baseline could do it 'on average'. Shooting a man to death is something a '12' could do with a heavy pistol with one shot, shooting a troll to death... less so. Leave off armor and defense scores for the moment. Or leave armor on... Now: it doesn't matter if the target is defending himself from being shot since that's not a 'quantifiable factor' in forensic science. But called shots to the face are: Could the baseline do a called shot to the face and still kill a motherfucker? Sure he could.

Now, the key is to factor in recordable/recorded penalties. Darkness? Doesn't count unless you can prove the shooter lacks lowlight or thermal vision. Wound penalities? Probably not unless, again, you have a very strong record of just how hurt he was.

Then you have to add in reasonable assumptions as bonuses too. IF only one guard was shot, by surprise, you have to assume aiming. You can assume smartlinks and other benefitial mods that are likely.

Once it's all said and done you have a few options:

It was possible for your baseline to do the shot
It was difficult for your baseline to do the shot
It was impossible for your baseline to do the shot.

Now: if it was possible, no change, but if it was difficult you add +1 to a tally (starting at zero). If it was impossible, you add +2.

There is a flipside, however. Everytime they FAIL you do the same thing in reverse. If the shot was impossible, and they failed, you add nothing. If it was difficult and they failed, you subtract one and if it was 'possible' and they failed you subtract 2. The farther from zero they stay on either side, the more famously good or bad they are.


Of course, you CAN expand this by determining their 'potential average' ability, that is the 'public' perception of how good they are by reverse engineering what their likely DP baseline is based on the shots they regularly make.

I'd recommend keeping a spreadsheet of rolls if that's what you're trying to do.

It doesn't matter how much overkilling they are doing, mind you. People die from bad luck wounds all the time, and bullets that kill armored folks are obviously not, generally, punching through armor they couldn't reasonably puncture but hitting areas where the armor is weak (end?) or non-existant. Defensive maneuvers are almost impossible to quantify (though setting up a baseline assumption of how dodgy people are as a factor isn't uncalled for... but it'll be low), and high body ditto. A single bullet in the right place can kill anyone. Sometimes that right place isn't that hard to hit.


But thats a LOT of work for little payoff. On the other hand, if you players WANT to be known for their leet skills, it also gives you a reason why they aren't.

"Billy, try doing more extreme shots if you want people to know how badass you are. Maybe richochet a shot off that guys helmet into his buddies eye. Do it three or four times in a row so people don't know its a fluke..."

[DocTaotsu]

Teams that are serious one trick ponies have a pretty obvious MO.

Well whatever happens, these guys always do X, Y, and Z... even if that really isn't the best way to go about it.

I think that's very independent of dice rolls.

[Spike]

Yeah, but just having that straightjacketed MO does not necessarily imply that they have extreme Dice Pools of Doom.


Of course, every time I see a post about how 'hyper optimal specialized Runners are the way to go' I just get all twitchy inside.


Just because it is commonly true at the table, where GM's often fail to bring players to task for not taking useful skills even at low 'subsitance' level, does not make it objectively true.

The bad guys, apparently, always try to square off with the guy best suited to stop them in their games. Which is funny, 'cause in real life most people go after the guy they are sure they can beat, unless they have an emotional reason to go after someone else 'get him, he called my wife a dirty trog!'....

My post was a somewhat extreme take on how to handle the potential reputation/MO building of extreme dice pools of doom, in accordance with the OP. I, for one, am far to lazy to actaully TRY something like that....

[Tarantula]

Not to throw this too far off topic... but why does it make you all twitchy inside?

[WeaverMount]

@Spike, yeah that is a lot of work but you can use your line of thinking and just wing the whole thing ... which is actually pretty much how I roll. My table goes to such lengths to remain untraceable. It really isn't that much work to keep track of everything the world could know about them, and quickly decide what of that any given NPC would have assess to.

On this thread I think "Huge dice" and "One Trick Ponies" are getting conflated. Huge DPs are hard to deduce and harder attribute to an individual/profile. One trick ponies are much much easier to ID and attribute.

[Spike]

A bit too much knowledge of how this sort of thing really works in the world? That's a stretch, but it sort of works.

See, Shadowrun seems to be based on some weird idea of a 'bank heist movie', like Oceans eleven, where you got your social monkey, your vault guy, whatever. That sort of works okay, but if you pay attention, even still, you'll have several 'social monkeys'... more exactly cross overs between specialization, even then. Sure: Frank might be your 'go to guy' for hacking, but if he's busy with the main project, Joey and Timmy are pretty decent at it too, they can easily handle stuff like taking control of the CCTV network or spoofing outgoing calls to the cops. Meanwhile Frank is immersed totally in breaking the glacier that covers the paydata.

Real life 'operators', that is Special Forces, terrorists and more tend to work under similar principles. Anything worth knowing how to do 'in the field' is worth EVERYONE knowing how to do 'in the field'. Sure, you may only need one guy that actually knows how to build a bomb, but you don't take that guy with you to hijack a plane.





This goes back to what I said about making me twitchy. See, the GM tosses up a 'net threat' for the party, and then lets just the hacker deal with it. That's common, which is why hyperspecialists work. But its also lazy and very unrealistic. The hacker can't be everywhere and do everything, and free instant communication/johnny on the spot behavior is easy when bullshitting around a table, but if you start mapping shit (like we do for gun combat...) it gets a bit harder. Why should we treat all the social stuff and hacker stuff as things that 'one guy' gets to do.

Its should go like this: Sure you have your face, but lets say the Sammy gets the call from the contact. He can't just hand the phone off, its too desperate a situation, the Face is busy doing something, and the contact is skittish as it is. That Sammy better have at least a few points of social monkey in him or the contact 'walks' and they lose access to that asset.

On the op, the hacker is busy dealing with the rigged LMG equipped light drone pinning the party down while the hammer drops. Then the Adept notices that his commlink is being hacked. What? He doesn't have any computer skills? He doesn't notice that he's being hacked? Well, I guess the entire party's network is compromised utterly.

That's realistic, that's what SHOULD be happening to the party on runs. Maybe not every fight, but often enough that a team of hyperspecialists starts to feel the pain. Maybe they lose someone early... like the demo guy getting dropped by a sniper en route to the mcguffin... which happens to be boobytrapped.

Frankly: Not doing this sort of thing is lazy and sloppy GMing. It's kid gloving the situation. If the party doesn't have good 'E-coverage', then they won't get hired to do jobs requiring it, certainly. But they WILL get hired if their e-coverage comes from one specialist, even if that guy goes down because he looks frail and easily droppable to the sec guards looking to reduce incoming fire.


Hyperspecialist only teams are horribly riddled with glaring fault lines, which is why, again, real world types don't use them. Not touching those faultlines in a game, particularly like Shadowrun, is ignoring the elephant in the room.

Thus it is horrifically bad advice brought on by lazy GMing. Its ubiquity is what makes me twitch.