Fake ID price, Too cheap ?? Options

[Synner667]

Hello folks,

Continuing my reading of the SR v4 rulebook, I got to the bit about false IDs..
"This means falsifying an identity involves massive amounts of electronic manipulation and false data propagation" and "Only an extremely well-connected expert [such as an exceptionally good hacker or professional forger] possess the resources to pull off a scam of these proportions. In fact whole organisations exist solely for the purpose of creating false identities" is what it says [pg 260]..
..Which would infer it's a difficult and time consuming process.

Yet, the best available is only ¥6000 - that's gotta be some mistake, surely ??

I would think a costing of (level x level) x¥1000 would be more sensible.


Thoughts ??

[kzt]

Considering how worthless they are (calculate the mean checks to failure) I'd suggest they they are overpriced. And over fluffed.

[masterofm]

Lone Star officer: "Do you have a license to carry that pistol? What about that mill spec comlink? What about that cyberware? What about your vehicle? What about those combat drugs, or those awakened drugs? AP rounds? Do you have a license for each one?"

You kind of have to buy quite a bit of fake licenses to back up what you are carrying as well.

[Chibu]

even in SR2/3 the fake ID system never worked right. We always just use it as detail, but don't let it bog us down.

[CanRay]

We had a system that we started using in Star Wars. We called it, "The Non-Jedi Force Wave".

Basically, it was a fair bit of cash attached to the ID.

Surprisingly, the money was never there when we got the ID back, and there were no more issues about permits.

Just make sure you use the right amount of money, and type.

[IQ Zero]

"Non-Jedi Force Wave" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Hahaha, we always just used to call it the Shrinking Wallet Syndrome.

[CanRay]

"Non-Jedi Force Wave" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Sorry, in-joke there. We got tired of the Jedi's Player trying to find the rules for his Force Power (He had moved, and was visiting, so had forgotten how it worked), so we just did that.

It worked a lot better than expected, and became a staple.

And, now back to Shadowrun!

[Muspellsheimr]

The system for fake SIN's " licenses is pretty damn shitty, as they rarely last long, even against minimal security. As such, I only ever have a half-assed one simply to avoid annoyance's from going around town.

If you want them to be more useful, I would suggest the following system overriding the BBB (which I will also suggest to my GM if I ever remember...):
Scanner rolls Rating x 2 against a threshold of the fake' rating. This makes them much more reliable, and even useful. A rating 6 even has a good chance to stand up against high end scanners (although rating 1 is still mostly worthless).

You could use the above rule for all scanners if you so choose (maglocks, biometrics, etc.)

If you feel this makes them to good, simply switch it so the SIN rolls rating x 2 against the threshold - still more useful than the BBB version.

As for them being underpriced - not really. Considering how easy they are to bust, they are not worth that much - and remember, a rating 3 costs nearly as much as, if not more, than Joe Average's monthly wage.

[Nightwalker450]

The system for fake SIN's " licenses is pretty damn shitty, as they rarely last long, even against minimal security. As such, I only ever have a half-assed one simply to avoid annoyance's from going around town.

If you want them to be more useful, I would suggest the following system overriding the BBB (which I will also suggest to my GM if I ever remember...):
Scanner rolls Rating x 2 against a threshold of the fake' rating. This makes them much more reliable, and even useful. A rating 6 even has a good chance to stand up against high end scanners (although rating 1 is still mostly worthless).

You could use the above rule for all scanners if you so choose (maglocks, biometrics, etc.)

If you feel this makes them to good, simply switch it so the SIN rolls rating x 2 against the threshold - still more useful than the BBB version.

As for them being underpriced - not really. Considering how easy they are to bust, they are not worth that much - and remember, a rating 3 costs nearly as much as, if not more, than Joe Average's monthly wage.

We're currenty having system roll rating against the SIN's rating as the threshold. With one change, that its an extended test, so in high alert statuses the system might make 2 or 3 rolls on an ID before letting it go past as clean. This allows rating 6 SIN's be really effective except against high rating systems running on high alert. And yet your SIN rating 1 will get by for a decent amount of time, in low security areas. We haven't done it yet, but I plan on if the area has no alerts or security warnings, if a SIN fails, the system will double check it (reroll its scan) if it fails to flag as Fake the second time then they'll be stopped for questioning, otherwise it'll just be a minor footnote in the files. How many times have you had to swipe a credit card or something 5-6 times before it read correctly, they didn't haul you off for a stolen card just because it errors the first time.

So I guess I have an Extended Test in High Alert status, and an Extended Fail test in Extremely Low alert status. We'll scan it 3 or 4 times, before we question its validity, all we really want is the money you owe us for your soycaffe.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I for one am glad the costs came down. Particularly since they tend to be more of a necessity just to get though day to day life. In previous editions, about the only time we ever were concerned about fake IDs was for infiltrating a facility. Often in this case, we were either given temporary cover ID sticks or referred to a forger by the Johnson .

Of course back then it was easier to maintain anonymity as you didn't need to ping a "personal transponder" signal (your commlink) everywhere you went and everyday transactions could be performed using certified cred or in some locales (like London or the CAS) even hard currency.

[Muspellsheimr]

We're currenty having system roll rating against the SIN's rating as the threshold. With one change, that its an extended test, so in high alert statuses the system might make 2 or 3 rolls on an ID before letting it go past as clean. This allows rating 6 SIN's be really effective except against high rating systems running on high alert. And yet your SIN rating 1 will get by for a decent amount of time, in low security areas. We haven't done it yet, but I plan on if the area has no alerts or security warnings, if a SIN fails, the system will double check it (reroll its scan) if it fails to flag as Fake the second time then they'll be stopped for questioning, otherwise it'll just be a minor footnote in the files. How many times have you had to swipe a credit card or something 5-6 times before it read correctly, they didn't haul you off for a stolen card just because it errors the first time.

So I guess I have an Extended Test in High Alert status, and an Extended Fail test in Extremely Low alert status. We'll scan it 3 or 4 times, before we question its validity, all we really want is the money you owe us for your soycaffe.

Not a bad idea. Looks like I have two possible suggestions to make for the GM. If I ever remember...

[masterofm]

What about instead of linking rank to difficulty you link it to what the SIN can do for a runner. Kind of like how contacts are scaled. Maybe a r6 SIN says you are some bigshot high rolling corp exec, but if you don't back it up threw RP and money you will get found out pretty quickly. An r1 fake sin will probably be just some Joe on the street working at a job that pays less then minimum wage. Something like that might be useful in treating fake SINs instead of having to deal with scanners and yah da bla. That way it removes some of the junk that is dealt with for a SIN, and at the same time takes care to construct a workable SIN. Eventually if people look hard enough they will find that your SIN is fake, but generally no one has time to boil over a SIN for over an hour.

[Larme]

First of all, to the OP: STOP TRYING TO NERF EVERYTHING DAMN IT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Second of all, 6k is not an inconsiderable amount of money. Remember that nuyen has suffered approximately a 75% deflation in SR4. That's no longer chump change like it used to be.

Also, I think that even though there's a lot that needs to be done to make a fake ID, it isn't just a few nerds in basements ginning them up one at a time. There are probably very many organized crime groups that have large scale fake ID operations, which enables them to do a lot of volume and thus lower prices. Since ID is pretty much everything in the wireless enabled world, and lots of people don't have them and can't even get them, fake IDs are going to be big business.

[Aaron]

First of all, to the OP: STOP TRYING TO NERF EVERYTHING DAMN IT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

It occurs to me that you could avoid his nerfs by not having him as a GM.

[Adam]

Admin post: Synner667, please stop putting extra "-" characters at the front of your threads. A useful subject is good enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Larme]

It occurs to me that you could avoid his nerfs by not having him as a GM.

That cannot abate my RAGE! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Cantankerous]

Keeping in mind that way back when the typical Lone Star Patrolman had a checker that was little better than an eyeball scan and guess, a Rating 3 stick was usually enough to then be able to shmooze your way out of any "irregularities" questions with Negotiation skill and the fact that if you were actually damned well dumb enough to go skating around a AA zone with a Panther Canon clutched in one obvious cyberarm and a had spinning blades on the end of the other one, then you had EARNED any problems you got, the system worked ok in the earlier editions.

The thing most GMs seem to somehow forget is that there had better be a good reason why Mr. Lone Star is hassling "Citizen X" in a AA zone...or said cop will end up spending his days as a crossing guard for an all Trog school in an E zone where that badge equals a target. Cops have to be careful not to offend in such zones, so have to feel they have good defensible reasons for bothering Mr. Rothchildes bodyguard....yet again!!!

It's all about balance and verisimilitude. If the Players are acting like morons, they are treated that way. If they are acting bright, you treat them THAT way. Even in 4th edition this can't have changed much.


Isshia

[weblife]

Fake SIN are expensive... In our current campaign we even had to allow being able to upgrade existing fake SINs, since none of us could afford to buy up straight to 6.

Hel, I have a rating 4 as my best I think.

We pretty much add Edge when its tested, to be sure not to get caught.

But I like the idea of changing either scanner or SIN to a threshold, its really annoying to blow Edge on the roll, only to have the scanner glitch and say "Please try again".

And by the way, that makes no sense from a RL perspective. If I had to flash my card twice at the door at work, a technician would be on his way to fix it sooo fast.

[Tobias]

And by the way, that makes no sense from a RL perspective. If I had to flash my card twice at the door at work, a technician would be on his way to fix it sooo fast.

Depends on the level I've stood outside swiping for 5 minutes before somebody just swiped me in. This problem wasn't fixed and sometimes still happens. ¬¬

[CanRay]

And by the way, that makes no sense from a RL perspective. If I had to flash my card twice at the door at work, a technician would be on his way to fix it sooo fast.

I want to work there!

The place I've worked with swipe cards, everyone had to swipe in, and three swipes was the MINIMUM.

1000+ people working there, shift changes on the hour ranging from a dozen to a few hundred, with two door that only allowed one at a time each. Not to mention lunch/breaks in the Mall because there was no in-house cafeteria aside from some vending machines that had sandwiches in them from when Diefenbaker was PM (Which is odd, because the place has only been in business for only eight years, and the storefront was a Sears before that!), and cola machines that were always empty a half-hour after the guy filled 'em up once a week.

That was close to five years ago, and, from what I've heard, the request to get the door repaired is still pending.

[Aaron]

The trick to getting the door fixed faster is to burn out the swipe lock. A couple of wires and a motorcycle battery should do the trick. Then they'll either fix the reader or unlock the door.

[Kerberos]

Fake SIN are expensive... In our current campaign we even had to allow being able to upgrade existing fake SINs, since none of us could afford to buy up straight to 6.

Hel, I have a rating 4 as my best I think.

We pretty much add Edge when its tested, to be sure not to get caught.

But I like the idea of changing either scanner or SIN to a threshold, its really annoying to blow Edge on the roll, only to have the scanner glitch and say "Please try again".

And by the way, that makes no sense from a RL perspective. If I had to flash my card twice at the door at work, a technician would be on his way to fix it sooo fast.

Yeah, and I just don't have enough money to get my SIN to level 4 so I can trade in for one hit, but then I figure one of the advantages to working for the Star is I get licences on my legal SIN. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[weblife]

Well, I can't speak for the places you mention, but here in Denmark something like that would not remain unfixed on the main doors to a facility. Not on anything owned by a serious company anyway. - At least I have never seen it happen unless the system was specifically being messed with or fixed or upgraded.

I suggest breaking it completely so they HAVE to fix it as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What a privileged life I have I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fortune]

What a privileged life I have I guess...

And don't you forget it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

The trick to getting the door fixed faster is to burn out the swipe lock. A couple of wires and a motorcycle battery should do the trick. Then they'll either fix the reader or unlock the door.

Kind of hard to explain, seeing as the main door *IS* "guarded" all the time by a security guard making sure that noone damages any of the equipment, or walk off with a computer.

Not to mention walking around a mall with a battery like that, when the mall has no Hardware Store...

But, yeah, I see your point.