[X] My Assistant

[Kastie]

I know the technology in 2070 is a lot more advanced then 2008, so it might be more difficult to create fake SIN's, but then I imagine the technology to create fake SIN's would be more advanced too...that being said, in looking at the prices for current, Real Life, "SIN's" is relatively cheap...at least according to this article it is.


Stolen Identity Prices: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348051,00.html


It looks like you could get 50 full fake identities (SIN's), for $100.00, or just $2.00 for a full fake ID...if that would be the equivalent of a fake SIN, then they are way overpriced in SR.

Kastie

[IQ Zero]

A SIN isn't just an ID, it's an all in one combination of a passport, driver's license, bank book, credit/debit card, and for all I know, library card.

[Kastie]

Yeah, I realize that a SIN has more to it, but if a full fake ID is just $2.00 in RL, then a SIN, even though it has more "stuff' to it, shouldn't be that much more, which would still make them cheap.

[IQ Zero]

True, if it was just an ID, however, the reason the price goes up as the rating goes up is for the quality of the background.

Rating 1 has maybe a few lines inserted in various databases.
Rating 2 has maybe twice as much as a rating 1.

So on and so forth.

Rating 6 would probably be in oh so many databases and in my game would odds are pass all but the most stringent check.

[Cantankerous]

There's the thing. Databases. Instant access to hundreds or thousands or even hundreds of thousands of databases by which to cross check and re-cross check and re-re-cross check the validity of the ID (for instance) means that the fake ID that is worth $2.00 nowadays wouldn't be worth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 0.000000001 in 2070.


Isshia

[kzt]

Most of the databases you could check are about financial transfers. Problem is that if you can hack the equivalent of the financial files of American Express and Visa and create false financial transactions in the past you have no need to be creating fake IDs for money. You can literally just make yourself rich and never have to work again.

[DocTaotsu]

I think that the bit is talking about wholesale prices, if I recall organized crime is heavily into milking this field for steady income. It doesn't sound like anyone is buying a single ID here for personal use.

A runner probably doesn't get his ID here (unless he's a hacker) he gets it from his contact who gets it from his Vory contact who... etc etc. everyone take their cut and the price gets up there. Kinda like how opium costs nickles before it leaves it's country of origin.

[IQ Zero]

Most of the databases you could check are about financial transfers. Problem is that if you can hack the equivalent of the financial files of American Express and Visa and create false financial transactions in the past you have no need to be creating fake IDs for money. You can literally just make yourself rich and never have to work again.

Not really, the databases that are probably edited are:
Birth Record
Statistics
School Records
Medical Records (adding things that make the fake SIN realistic such as cases of childhood diseases, etc. etc.)
Phone Records
Employment Records
Driver's Licence

Think about it, when you are applying for a new bank account (at least here), you have to show proof of employment and maybe a driver's license. Assuming the records above are jiggered enough to pass a casual search, you can use it to get a bank account. A REAL bank account (even if using a false name) would then make your false ID seem more realistic neh?

[kzt]

A commercial vendor can't actually get to those, only the government does. Are you assuming that stuffer shack does a check of your medical records and elementary school graduation when you buy a bar of foamed synthachocolate? It seems kind of unlikely to me.

What they can get to are commercial records. Do you have money, and are you likely to be ripping them off are the only things they care about.

What causes modern fake IDs to implode when questioned typically are things like a financial trail that pops into existence. Even when the fake ID is created by someone with legitimate rights, like a DMV employee creating a fake license. Stuffer shack won't care that your 25 year old character never had a bank account until 3 weeks ago, but the cops might find it most interesting that you've been employed by XYZ for 4 years, and they have never paid you and you never had a bank account until two months ago.

If someone can created a full credit trail for YOU they can simply avoid the whole dirty business of selling fake IDs and just create themselves a luxurious lifestyle.

[weblife]

I would guess that the things the scanner looks up is more akin to:

Do you (the database) know this person? Y/N

Is he "ok"? Y/N

I find it very unlikely that the megas share detailed customer spending patterns freely. That knowledge is very valuable.

Not to mention, if they did, you would pretty much have to give consent for them to do it. Naturally you could deny them, and they in turn could deny trading with you, but that would mean a near blank SIN could exist in the hands of the near paranoid and very private people who deny sharing data.

Or do you all assume those kinds of rules are completely out the window by 2070?

[IQ Zero]

A commercial vendor can't actually get to those, only the government does. Are you assuming that stuffer shack does a check of your medical records and elementary school graduation when you buy a bar of foamed synthachocolate? It seems kind of unlikely to me.

What they can get to are commercial records. Do you have money, and are you likely to be ripping them off are the only things they care about.

What causes modern fake IDs to implode when questioned typically are things like a financial trail that pops into existence. Even when the fake ID is created by someone with legitimate rights, like a DMV employee creating a fake license. Stuffer shack won't care that your 25 year old character never had a bank account until 3 weeks ago, but the cops might find it most interesting that you've been employed by XYZ for 4 years, and they have never paid you and you never had a bank account until two months ago.

If someone can created a full credit trail for YOU they can simply avoid the whole dirty business of selling fake IDs and just create themselves a luxurious lifestyle.

Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear. A SIN is composed of those things I mentioned. Now certain businesses will look for that information (such as banks). Using a rating 1 fake SIN to open an account is highly unlikely to work (IMHO), however, from rating 4 up to 6, it is easier. Now most of the time, when you purchase something, say at a stuffer shack, all they care about is if your balance is sufficient to pay for what you are getting. However, the BANK itself will probably be testing your SIN rather more intensively.

As for the cops, their check will cross-reference your history, but odds are, if a reputable banking institution is part of your new SIN, knowing that the bank checks up on it more intensively, they might be more willing to see you as legit. After all, while the bank is on your SIN as a financial institution, the chances of them giving away your financial data is slim to none, unless of course, the coppers they are giving the info to is owned by the same company they work for in the first place. (Remember the clause that banks always use? They can't give away priviledged client info.)

The way I see it, banks (and other financial institutions) will be protecting their data pretty darned well, its the government files (at least the low-end ones that I mentioned above) that will be easier to hack.

[CanRay]

Depends on the bank you're dealing with. I see the banks in Shadowrun like in the US right now. Any person with a pile of money can make a bank.

So, if you're opening an account at the "First Bank of J.R. Dobbs", the background check is going to be less extensive than for "UCAS Bank of Commerce (Formerly Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce)". A SIN Level 1 won't work for either, but a SIN level 3 (For DobbsBank) or 4 (For UBC) should have no issues for general banking. Of course higher would be much better.

But, the First Bank of J.R. Dobbs would also be more likely to cow down to a Lone Star investigation, whereas UBC will get it's team of Rabid Attack Lawyers out to make sure that the Release of Private Information order signed by two judges and an elected public notary has every "i" dotted and "t" crossed. After all, that's what those expensive service charges are for.

But, if the UBC does decide to investigate you (Like you're stupid enough to apply for a Loan for a House or Car!), then they have the equipment to break through that SIN like a Soyegg Carton!

Now, let's also not forget that other bank system of choice... The Black Bank Accounts. Organized Crime!

Da Foist Bank A Tony could care less about how secure or accurate your SIN is, as long as you have one. A SIN 1 will work for them. And it'll pass muster with the basic shopping a 'Runner will have to do (Stuffer Shack, Bargain Shop, Bars, "Bob's Booze, Bullets, and Butts", Wang's Huge Gun, Underbridge and Associates), but anything that does any kind of background check will trip questions (Pretty much any large purchases over a few thousand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). Tony, now, he don't like questions. His "service fees" are also larger than regular banks, with a collection agency that just can't be beat (Simply because they beat back, and harder.).

It's also great for dealing with other Shadowdenziens, who also probably have accounts with Da Foist Bank A Tony, or their other Organized Crime Equivilent.

Too many questions gets asked of Tony's Bank, and the cops end up raiding some place that used to have a lot of computer equipment in it, and has been stripped down to a bare lightbulb. And the bank never comes back again. And a lot of angry people are going to look into why those questions were asked, then why police action was actually demanded, rather than Lone Star just enjoying it's nice sized cut for "Security" of the "Site" (Part of what those large service charges pay for.). Those people, who also lost their money in Da Foist Bank A Tony, they're going to want to have words with the person that screwed up that nice arrangement they had...

Finally, numbered, off-shore bank accounts in countries with restrictive privacy laws. Yes, these places still exist because rich people and smaller corporations need to launder money as well (If, for nothing else, to pay less taxes!). But using these all the time at the Stuffer Shacks will raise eyebrows, but larger money transfers won't, as they'll blend in with the rest of the large amounts shifting around.

[Cabral]

The way I envision "whole organisations exist solely for the purpose of creating false identities" is that they have established access into multiple databases and by filling out a form, it worms the supporting information into the relevant databases, with higher ratings populating more databases and activating additional code to more generate supporting information. Ie, you input that a certain individual worked at the Toshiba plant 3 years ago, a R1 would put that in the employee records with maybe some payroll records, a R3 might generate some paperwork with your name on it and an R6 might generate card reader logs, if they go back that far, and some personnel evaluation forms, etc.

The cost of greasing the wheels, maintaining access to the needed databases would likely be spread acrosss enough fake SINs to be very minor. These organizations would have an extremely high start up cost but after becoming established, each SIN would be mostly profit.

[kzt]

The problem is that once you put something into the payroll records the ledger doesn't balance. That is NOT acceptable and will trip all sorts of audit flags. So either you have to be able to totally manipulate a mega's AP/AR/payroll system (in which case you can just have them send you large checks) or you can't do that. So unless you are replacing a real worker (which is certainly possible) it's exceedingly hard to add something to an account in the past.

[CanRay]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's if the business is legit.

How many fronts are there out there that are only an Electronic PO Box in China filled with flyers for Herbal Enlargement Pills?

[Triggerz]

The problem is that once you put something into the payroll records the ledger doesn't balance. That is NOT acceptable and will trip all sorts of audit flags. So either you have to be able to totally manipulate a mega's AP/AR/payroll system (in which case you can just have them send you large checks) or you can't do that. So unless you are replacing a real worker (which is certainly possible) it's exceedingly hard to add something to an account in the past.

Hmmm... Yeah, but there are ways of cooking the books that keep them balanced. I'm really not any kind of accounting expert, but there are all sorts of cheap tricks one can use that will not be obvious at all. If you change both a debit and a credit from 500 to 5000, the books will still balance. It's just a matter of knowing which accounts you can use to hide, say, your extra payroll expenses.

[Triggerz]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's if the business is legit.

How many fronts are there out there that are only an Electronic PO Box in China filled with flyers for Herbal Enlargement Pills?

Yeah, that too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

I can actually see some Organized Crime Forensic Accountant whose job is just to go around the Matrix, checking out and trying to find old, forgotten Fronts and Straw Men specifically to use for Fake SINs.

The Fuchi Orphaned Fronts alone are still probably keeping the Yakuza and Mafia in Fake SIN Backtrails!

[kzt]

It's easy to come up with a background that "looks OK". And for most purposes that is fine. And if you ignore idiocy, like the real chance of the stuffer shack blowing your level 6 fake ID..... And for damn near all practical purposes that is all you need. Just don't get arrested or similar event that makes a trainied investigator look into your past.

It's hard to come up with a fake ID that holds up to more then trivial investigation for someone who knows what they are doing and it gets exponentially harder and more expensive to come up with ones that can stand up to some investigation, serious investigation involving phone calls to people who should know you and on up to trained investigators visiting your former employers and landlords with pictures and checking printed copies of your high school yearbooks and running DNA tests on medical tissue samples from when you were a kid.

In my opinion, the only way you'd get an ID that would hold up to an sophisticated organized crime family or suspicious cops looking into you is to have it made by an intel or LE organization that is actively supporting it, with people answering phones and emails pretending to be your ex-boss or aunt Edna in Chicago.

[IQ Zero]

The thing is, with the descriptions in the SR4 book of how much these people rely on computers, it does seem that they don't do serious investigations if they are just checking your balance to see if you can pay for your purchase at the local stuffer shack or if they see you walking along that nice AAA neighborhood, instead they question your commlink to find your SIN, then run that SIN against their computers.

So if your fake Rating 4 SIN is backed by a decent financial institution, say Citibank of North America, with that account being real (after all you deposited money into it), there is a good chance that their computers are going to pass you on as legit. What more with a rating 6 SIN backed by say 3 extremely reputable financial institutions?

Of course, that's not to say that the financial institutions will not question your SIN in the first place, that's why you pay for the higher rating, to hope that enough info has been inserted about you to make you look legit.

As you keep using that fake SIN, the more "real" it gets, more and more info enters the system. Confirming that you are "you".

On the other hand, throwaway SINs, something that you get for a single run, I'd probably go for a 3 rating at most.

[Triggerz]

I assume one could know who they're supposed to be when they pick up the phone by assigning different phone numbers to different references (but all the numbers are routed to the same few "call centers" as you suggested). When inspector Columbob calls 555-5667, aunt Edna's file shows up on the call center's screen with details on her nephew John so that the call center's employee has all the information needed to answer questions properly. I hadn't really thought much about that kind of stuff before, but it would work pretty well, I think. Should we make fake IDs subscription items then? The cost of the service (for the firm) is not going to be the same for, say, elven and ork clients since the former is likely to live a whole lot longer.

[kzt]

Subscription would be cool, but not covered by lifestyle. And they are so NOT going to give out credit. Don't miss your monthly payment.

This won't work on the smart and suspicious investigator who has connections or hacking, but it will cover many SINs.

[ornot]

The way I've thought about fake SINs is not so much that an identity has been created, but rather that one has been stolen or otherwise co-opted. A low rating one is where the original owner is very much alive and likely to notice that some bastard has been going places and buying soykaf with their identity and money. A high rating means that the owner is actually dead or comatose, and no one is going to check up on the activity.

Of course, this does open up the prospect of runners spending someone else's money to rent a monster truck, say. Of course, if this is Mr Coma, his account will become overdrawn, and the medical agency will switch off his life support or try to find out where their money has gone (thus breaking your rating 6 SIN). Similar abuse of a rating 1 SIN will probably lead to a far quicker reaction and a refusal to the monster truck rental folk, as the bank contacts the legitimate owner of the SIN who says "I don't want to rent a monster truck", and the rental company calls LS.

Of course, if the runner transfers any money they earn or spend to or from Da Foist Banka Tony, erring on the side of transferring more money to the account than from it the legitimate owner won't notice or won't report it ("My account just gained 50:yen:. Should I mention it to my bank? nah...").

Buying stuff on the black market involves drawing directly on Da Foist Banka Tony, or even using hard currency withdrawn from Da Foist Bank.

OOC this is all fluff, and costs are glossed over as being part of lifestyle costs. Someone with the SINner quality has to spend money to get their shadow income laundered, if they choose ot use their legit SIN, so it comes down to the same thing.

Also, I think that fake SINs are something that can't be used indefinitely. Since the more you use it, the more likely the legitimate owner is going to notice.

[DocTaotsu]

I've always played the low level SIN's actually go up in level the more you use them. If you're using that level 3 SIN to buy your groceries, rent your apartment, etc, that all forms a datatrail that eventually leads to a higher level of SIN (after all you have a real world address right?). The catch is, of course, that at higher ratings... you actually have a real address, which means that if anything illegal get linked to your SIN, the cops actually know where to serve that no-knock warrant.

[CanRay]

"Vote early and vote often! Get some use out of those Fake SINs, folks!"