Stick-n-Shock in full-auto weapons?!?, Is it possible and how would you deal with that? Options

[Triggerz]

Well, I don't know an awful lot about electricity theory, but I've been reading about cases of tasering going bad and in almost all cases the cause is an abuse of the weapon, i.e. shooting the poor victim several times in a row (in a short period of time). Now I do not know the details of all these cases, but it seems to me that, in RL, tasers aren't as safe once you start tasering people more than once. Anyways, I guess I'll discuss it with my group to see what they think.

[Fortune]

The easiest way to deal with Stick-n-Shock is to ... ignore its existence.

[krakjen]

That's pretty much what I did. None of my players noticed its existence.
For stun damage, they're simply using gel rounds...

[WearzManySkins]

Well, I don't know an awful lot about electricity theory, but I've been reading about cases of tasering going bad and in almost all cases the cause is an abuse of the weapon, i.e. shooting the poor victim several times in a row (in a short period of time). Now I do not know the details of all these cases, but it seems to me that, in RL, tasers aren't as safe once you start tasering people more than once. Anyways, I guess I'll discuss it with my group to see what they think.

Repeated RL Lenses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Tasers ie once each has discharged its charge, then firing another one, etc, does/can cause muscle tissue injuries using ones RL Lense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The SR Physics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) SnS causes Stun Damage due the abstract nature of the SR4 gaming system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

WMS

[Tarantula]

I don't think that's how it works. Here's the text: "The Stick-n-Shock replaces the weapon’s Damage Value with its own." That means that your DV goes from, say, 6P -1AP to 6S(e) -half AP. That becomes the weapon's new damage code. Narrow bursts do not modify the weapon's DV at all, they modify the attack's DV. For instance, "Narrow bursts increase the attack’s DV by +2." So, first you take the weapon's DV, which is replaced by the DV for stick n shock. And then when you attack, you add the modifiers to the DV of that attack only. So narrow bursts do increase the DV of stick-n-shock attacks like they do anything else.

The only way you could be correct is if narrow bursts modified the weapon's DV. No matter how you modify the weapon's damage code, it's replaced with 6S(e), you're right. But because narrow bursts do not change the weapon's damage code, but rather modify only the attack where the narrow burst is being fired, textually speaking you're dead wrong. And why shouldn't you be? I should think that getting shot with effectively 10 taser shots hurts a lot more than getting shot with 1. Certainly it shouldn't use 10x the ammo and do 1x the damage. That's not supported by common sense or RAW.

Except that stick and shock (and gyrojet shock rockets) are the only ammunition that has a fixed DV, instead of a modifier. Every other part of the book talks about how the ammunition modifies the weapons DV. Stick and shock replaces that DV. I understand your arguement that the book by RAW states that stick and shock replaces the weapons dv, and that burst/full auto modifies the "attack" dv.

I think that in the sake of balance, this ought to be changed, such that stick and shock explicitly is fixed at 6S(e). Hopefully that makes it into an errata, though, if it hasn't by now, I rather doubt it.

[Larme]

I really don't think it's a much of balance issue, especially because people can wear nonconductive armor. But w/e.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I disagree but then my background has something to do with it also. I am "calibrated" for 10,000 volts currently. Go and read Ohm's Law, watts is what hurts a living creature.

So if if I used a defibrillator on ten different areas of your chest, would there be any different real difference? no once the heart contracts any more contractions have no effect until the heart uncontracts and begins beating again. Yes if you wait for the heart to cycle yes 10 such shocks would have a drastic effect.

Stick-n-shock on a person (even assuming a hit on uncovered skin) is pretty different from a defibrilator (actually, do you think that a stick-n-shock round might also squirt out some of that gel? that would be neat) and (I think) very different from an ohmic conductor, what with the varying resistance of different tissue and the anisotropic conduction and the electrical sparks ow, it hurt me!

Plus you get those burns and all. I think of the incapacitating as the "secondary" effect (in that it's not straight-up Stun damage) -- your muscles seize up, you fall down and drop your stuff.

If I fired a modded Ares Super Squirt loaded with DMSO and Narcojet would the 10S stack? on Full Auto?

Depends on what Narcoject is, but it seems like with RL tranquilizers, sometimes you need to use more if the target is big (a dart for tranquing a baboon will merely make an elephant slightly mellower) but using too much is bad (a baboon tranqued with an elephant dart may well not wake up). For most drugs with narcotic properties, there's a dosage at which they're fun, a higher dosage where they're incapacitating, and a higher dosage where they're lethal. A really good drug has a lot of space in the sub-lethal area -- it might take a ten-fold or twenty-fold or 100-fold overdose to kill someone, but it might be two-fold (but of course drugs and electricity are different). So probably a burst (maybe even a long burst) wouldn't overflow into Physical damage, but if you kept shooting someone with it, you could really overdo it.

[Shrike30]

I just made SnS a shotgun-only round. Sure, there's full-auto shotguns, but they aren't too much of a problem, honestly.

[Muspellsheimr]

There is nothing I am aware of that states Stick n' Shock do not follow the standard rules for burst fire and full auto. While the power of the energy does not increase, the amount does, resulting in more damage. Nothing complicated about that.

For those saying that S&S replaces the weapons base damage, and therefor is always 6S, damage from burst fire is *not* part of a weapon's base damage - it is a modifier, and so is not replaced by a fixed number.

For those saying it should be handled as a resistance test against X S&S separately - only if you are handing regular bursts the same way - resist base damage 6 times, instead of resist base damage +5. This should not be done, partially for game balance, partially to smooth out play and reduce time spent rolling dice, and partially because it simply makes sense.

[Cabral]

Joules = Watts X Time

In SR3, the Yamaha Pulsar had a sinusoidal discharge pattern, probably to get around the problems you are mentioning. Assuming that such a discharge pattern helped, I suspect that multiple such discharge paaterns would wreak havoc with each other, reducing effectivenees.

On the other hand, your heart isn't the only muscle that a taser is affecting. Each hit is going to affect the contraction of muscles local to area impacted which would be an argument for increasing effectiveness, particularly if opposed muscle groups are targeted (ie, back and front of a leg).

House rule I won't be using but someone else might like: SnS deals damage twice. On a successful attack (1+ net hits), it deals weapon's normal DV -2 (low velocity) + net hits + burst/FA modifiers damage and 6S(e), resisted separately.

Easy way to deal with FA SnS is use suppressive fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wanderer_king]

I upped the damage code as per normal bursts (ie +2 for short narrow, +5 for long narrow, +9 for Full burst) and I made it (P). Tasers have been suspected of killing suspects in some areas (although may had abnormal cardio issues such as heart disease and/or drug use.)

Linkage

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html

[Larme]

I don't think it makes any sense to make them do P damage, no matter what else you do... Almost anyone can take a hit from a taser, go down, and then be fine a few minutes later. Only people with heart conditions or certain other health problems get killed by them. It isn't that the taser does lethal damage, it's that the stun damage becomes lethal to certain individuals because of hidden health issues.

[DocTaotsu]

I upped the damage code as per normal bursts (ie +2 for short narrow, +5 for long narrow, +9 for Full burst) and I made it (P). Tasers have been suspected of killing suspects in some areas (although may had abnormal cardio issues such as heart disease and/or drug use.)

It's physical damage all the time? Doesn't this mean that's all your character use since it'd be handy swell to have a light pistol that automatically does assault rifle damage.

[wanderer_king]

I should have been clearer... I meant that with the burst I made them (P).

Other issues haven't come up, cause once I did that since didn't stun as well as normal (killing people your being paid to stun is very bad in my games) the players looked into more traditional stun weapons.... like the Troll Shaman casting stunball or (shock, gasp) actual tasers. While I wanted to prevent them from being exploited, I dislike outright removing options from players, so I thought it was a great compliment for my games.

P.S. There are concerns that multiple taser shots could indeed induce Heart trama and malfunction.... there was a big case up here about the police being sued over the death of a mentally ill person because he was taser with 3 guns at the same time... I will look around to see if I can dig up the article about it.

[DocTaotsu]

Ah well I still think that it's goofy but at least it isn't insane.

[Fuchs]

The easiest way to deal with Stick-n-Shock is to ... ignore its existence.

Indeed.

[Rad]

As mentioned before, stick and shock uses the same rules as everything else when it comes to burst fire: Base damage + burst modifiers

But since we're donning out RL Goggles, allow me to add some RL experience to this discussion:

First, it's amps that make an electrical charge life threatening. It's my impression that tasers have a pretty low amp-to-volt ratio for just this reason. Even so, getting zapped does more than just make your muscles jump. Introducing electricity into the human body can mess with a number of different things, from biochemistry to nerve conduction. I have a relative who can't use vending machines anymore because they f-up when she gets near them, then work fine as soon as she walks away.

Even just looking at the muscle contractions, getting hit in more than one area means groups of muscle are contracting powerfully at the same time that might not do so naturally. If nothing else, you could get sprains and torn ligaments from the different muscle groups acting on each other.

Imagine your biceps and triceps trying to contract at the same time...

[weblife]

Except that stick and shock (and gyrojet shock rockets) are the only ammunition that has a fixed DV, instead of a modifier. Every other part of the book talks about how the ammunition modifies the weapons DV. Stick and shock replaces that DV. I understand your arguement that the book by RAW states that stick and shock replaces the weapons dv, and that burst/full auto modifies the "attack" dv.

I think that in the sake of balance, this ought to be changed, such that stick and shock explicitly is fixed at 6S(e). Hopefully that makes it into an errata, though, if it hasn't by now, I rather doubt it.

I have to agree with Larme and others. SnS changes weapon damage to 6S(e) which should then be further modified by usual means, burst, F-A etc.

Lets look at the balance parts.

Arguments vs. SnS balancing:

"Small arms become too effective"

"Drones are vulnerable to (e)"

"Halving I is too powerful"

If there are others, bring them out.

The Steyr TMP is the smallest gun able to FA. It starts with 4P. This becomes:

Normal: 4P, burst 6P, FA 13P, full B to resist
APDS: 4P, 6P, 13P, B-4 to resist, effectively halving or more in most cases.
EXEX: 5P, 7P, 14P, B-1 to resist
Gel: 6S, 8S, 15S, I+2 to resist -2Body to avoid falling
SnS: 6S(e), 8S(e), 15S(e), I/2 to resist +(e) effect

Prices:
Normal: 20 2R
APDS: 70 16F
EXEX: 100 16F
Gel: 30 4R
SnS: 80 5R

So of normal, gel and SnS, SnS is something you can get, and definately the best of the three.

But overpowered? - I do not think so, yet. Will look into the secondary effect next and try comparing common targets of this and other ammo types vs. drones, humans and spirits. (Unless someone else wants to do this and save me the time.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: EXEX was nerfed!!

[ArkonC]

I should have been clearer... I meant that with the burst I made them (P).

Other issues haven't come up, cause once I did that since didn't stun as well as normal (killing people your being paid to stun is very bad in my games) the players looked into more traditional stun weapons.... like the Troll Shaman casting stunball or (shock, gasp) actual tasers. While I wanted to prevent them from being exploited, I dislike outright removing options from players, so I thought it was a great compliment for my games.

P.S. There are concerns that multiple taser shots could indeed induce Heart trama and malfunction.... there was a big case up here about the police being sued over the death of a mentally ill person because he was taser with 3 guns at the same time... I will look around to see if I can dig up the article about it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but getting hit by several sources of (e) damage can kill you...
Johnny Targetpracticedummy has a body and willpower of 2, for damage tracks of 9...
Meaning that if he gets tasered 4 times, he is most likely dead or dying...

Also, I'll also agree with Larme and co, if you count every bullet hit in normal burst fire, you count every SnS hit too, but SR doesn't, for easy of play, it just adds modifiers because of the ammount of bullets, so should it be with SnS...

[krakjen]

EXEX: 6P, 8P, 15P, B-2 to resist
Gel: 6S, 8S, 15S, I+2 to resist -2Body to avoid falling

Go read the errata NOW.

Edit: I think s-n-s was acceptable before the errata-nerf of the other ammos.
Now it's definitely unbalanced.

PS: You forgot flechette rounds
PPS: And considering APDS as halving armor is only working when you are facing average guards. Against professional corpo or spirits or whatever it's not that effective...

[Tarantula]

So of normal, gel and SnS, SnS is something you can get, and definately the best of the three.

Which makes me question why exactly would anyone ever use Gel? Its the only other option for stun, but uses full Impact +2 (not half like SnS).

[Triggerz]

If you stick-n-shock someone in the face (as opposed to shooting the person, say, on the torso), would it mess up the victim's brain any more than usual? Can you "Call a shot" to increase damage with S-n-S? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Triggerz]

Which makes me question why exactly would anyone ever use Gel? Its the only other option for stun, but uses full Impact +2 (not half like SnS).

It's significantly cheaper? I know it's not a big deal when you care about your survival, but some people are just cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) Seriously, a few Initiative Passes of Full Auto and you can buy pizza and beer for all your buddies with the price difference. And that counts for socially-challenged street sams. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tarantula]

50¥ isn't significantly cheaper at all.

[Spike]

50¥ isn't significantly cheaper at all.

So: If I send you my address you'll send me 50 bucks? Sweet!