Stick-n-Shock in full-auto weapons?!?, Is it possible and how would you deal with that? Options

[Tarantula]

My point was more that 50Â¥ is not enough of a savings to use Gel instead of SnS due to the decreased performance.

[stevebugge]

Then I think you should restrict s-n-s to bigger caliber weapons.

Edit: By this I mean heavy pistols (maybe SMG if you want), and everything bigger...

Our group rule on Stick&Shock is it's only available as a Shotgun Round

[Tarantula]

Our group rule on Stick&Shock is it's only available as a Shotgun Round

But what about the gyrojet shock rockets?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[stevebugge]

But what about the gyrojet shock rockets?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

If someone ever uses a gyrojet, we'll figure that out

[Tarantula]

I still find it hard to see the logic in those. We have a weapon designed for use underwater. Lets give it electric rounds!

[WearzManySkins]

I still find it hard to see the logic in those. We have a weapon designed for use underwater. Lets give it electric rounds!

Only if it is freshwater, saltwater the rounds would have a area effect. But are SnS waterproof? if not, carrying a full clip and getting into saltwater would be most entertaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[krakjen]

Electric weapon.
Water environment.

FINAL DESTINATION!

[Tarantula]

Only if it is freshwater, saltwater the rounds would have a area effect. But are SnS waterproof? if not, carrying a full clip and getting into saltwater would be most entertaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

Gives new use for that Hose elemental combat spell.

[Spike]

Tarantula: that is 50 per 10 rounds. I often suspect that most games don't really track ammo expenditures very closely and most GM's don't apply enough modifires to increase wiff factor (or simply:not killed yet factor), which is why you can say that.

I imagine that if a Runner is only earning 5k on a run, figurign he's blowing upwards of 10% of his pay on ammo would seriously have him looking for ways to cheapen the process.

Not that I mind SnS being highly effective, actually.


That said: My 'vision' of an SnS round, as much as I'd normally like to hose excessively effective peices of kit, would not be all that vulnerable to water. Especially if it needs to be feedable through a semi-automatic, or automatic weapon. In all likelyhood the taser portion is contained in gel-round like 'slug' until impact.

[Tarantula]

Thats 8Â¥ a round. SnS typically takes 2-3 rounds per person to drop them unconcious. 16-24Â¥ per guard is not 10% of your 5k run unless you are taking out 20-30 guards per run. I don't know about your games, but I do track my ammo, and typically, I go through less than a clip per run. Most other characters do too. Maybe thats because we lean more towards the "pro" black and shadows don't ever know we were they style of play, but regardless, saving 5Â¥ per round, is nothing worth cheering about. Hell, pick up the guards gun, throw it in a metal box, and let your fixer sell it for 10% of its value off ONE of those guards, and it'll cover your ammo costs for the run.

As far as shorting out the SnS. Secondary effects of water are that it can short out sensitive or unwaterproofed electronics. SnS rounds are electronic. They standardly aren't waterproofed. Thus, they can short out.

[cryptoknight]

My point was more that 50Â¥ is not enough of a savings to use Gel instead of SnS due to the decreased performance.

That's ¥50 per long burst or per 3 short bursts... An Ingram-X that's a ~¥150 per clip. Lone Star is going to send their guys out with Gel.

[Tarantula]

Actually, Lonestar is going to send their guys out with thunderbolts, and probably a defiance taser. Taser for incapacitating if need be (and it doubles as a baton!) and the thunderbolt for dropping. In fact, the book lone star squad member has a colt america (probaby because the thunderbolt isn't in the BBB) and a defiance taser, AND a stun baton.

That's ¥50 per long burst or per 3 short bursts... An Ingram-X that's a ~¥150 per clip. Lone Star is going to send their guys out with Gel.

Yeah, and its almost always 1 guard per 3 shots (if not 2) by using Semi-Auto. And it keeps your costs down. And its less noticeable. And no recoil penalties.

[Cabral]

Gel: 6S, 8S, 15S, I+2 to resist -2Body to avoid falling
<snip>
EDIT: EXEX was nerfed!!

Gel: 4S, 6S, 13S, I+2 to resist -2Body to avoid falling
You missed the Gel nerf too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

If you wish to take down a sec guard, mod a ares super squirt for burst fire, with DMSO and Narcojet. Also do not have to worry about recoil or use a silencer either. 10S three times will slow the guard at least.

WMS

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Yeah the range isn't so great though.

By the way, has anyone else ever gotten DMSO on them? That weird taste, man, it is to garlic what nutrasweet is to sugar. Plus the fact that you're tasting something because you touched it, that's just not right.

[Tarantula]

If you wish to take down a sec guard, mod a ares super squirt for burst fire, with DMSO and Narcojet. Also do not have to worry about recoil or use a silencer either. 10S three times will slow the guard at least.

WMS

You're wrong, sorry. Narcojet has a speed of immediate. Immediate speed takes effect at the end of the combat turn in which it is applied. SR4, 245. The gamemaster gets to increase the damage of a toxin that is applied more than one dose before the speed has elapsed. I'd say, in this case, normal burst rules work just fine. +2 do the DV of the toxin, so it does one hit at 12S. Not 3 at 10S each.

[WearzManySkins]

Your are correct Tarantula
Cyanide, Immediate 8P
Warp, Immediate 10S
Shade, Immediate via DMSO? Astral Projection, even mundanes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Atropine, Immediate 5P
Breathtaker, 1 Combat Turn, 8S
Ekyelebenle Venom, 1 Combat Turn, 8P
Naga Venom, 1 Combat Turn, 6D
Nova Scorpion Venom, 1 Hour, 12P

Do Not have the in game stats for Nicotine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Tarantula]

Hrm, new idea. Rather pathetic in melee, whoopass in astral combat magician who packs shade in his supersquirt.

What is 6D for naga venom?

[CanRay]

Hrm, new idea. Rather pathetic in melee, whoopass in astral combat magician who packs shade in his supersquirt.

Also makes for confused forensic teams trying ot figure out CoD.

[WearzManySkins]

Hrm, new idea. Rather pathetic in melee, whoopass in astral combat magician who packs shade in his supersquirt.

What is 6D for naga venom?

Supposed to be 6P for naga venom.

Just take a mage type a force 6 physical invisibility, add some extras, then come up to the targets, spray em down then wait 1 combat turn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) It makes no sounds when firing also.

WMS

[Triggerz]

Thats 8Â¥ a round. SnS typically takes 2-3 rounds per person to drop them unconcious. 16-24Â¥ per guard is not 10% of your 5k run unless you are taking out 20-30 guards per run. I don't know about your games, but I do track my ammo, and typically, I go through less than a clip per run. Most other characters do too. Maybe thats because we lean more towards the "pro" black and shadows don't ever know we were they style of play, but regardless, saving 5Â¥ per round, is nothing worth cheering about. Hell, pick up the guards gun, throw it in a metal box, and let your fixer sell it for 10% of its value off ONE of those guards, and it'll cover your ammo costs for the run.

Well, the thread title sort of points to full auto S-n-S. I'm aware that you can use SA pistols with S-n-S to great effect, but not on all targets. Some will require a little "extra love" before they'll agree to go down. (Was that a pun of some kind? My apologies. English's a second language for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) And in full auto, as was my point, it **does** get "significantly cheaper" pretty fast. AAAAAAAAAAnyways...

[Tarantula]

My point was, for a "cost" concern, its better to use stick and shock in single shots, and not in full auto.

[Triggerz]

Yeah, but where's the fun in *that*? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously, we're both right, but talking about different ways of assessing the cost. You're right, two shots of S-n-S in SA will often be just as effective as a full auto burst and it will cost much less. And two rounds of S-n-S will be cheaper than 10 rounds of Gel. But at the same time, there are situations you'll want to use full auto, like if you need suppressive fire. With S-n-S, that gets expensive real quick.

So yeah, I really need S-n-S in one gun and something cheaper in the other. For, you know, pizza and beer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

That's ¥50 per long burst or per 3 short bursts... An Ingram-X that's a ~¥150 per clip. Lone Star is going to send their guys out with Gel.

As an aside...

Back in 2.0, I found out that even if loaded with gel rounds, a drum of shotgun ammo on full automatic will, in fact, kill people.

Oops.


-karma

[Tarantula]

Fine. If your standard plan for guards is to spray them full auto or suppressive fire regardless of the circumstances, then yes, gel will be cheaper.

If you're actually just trying to knock out a guard or two and subdue them, without making lots of noise, SnS is the way to go.