Stick-n-Shock in full-auto weapons?!?, Is it possible and how would you deal with that? Options

[Rad]

You can always kill them after they're down, if you're really paranoid about witnesses.

Have to take their cybereyes with you though. Nothing says "trophy" like incriminating evidence.

[Spike]

If you are only dealing with a guard or two... on EVERY FRIKKIN RUN then no wonder you aren't to worried about the cost.

Sure. I can buy a 20 dollar cigar and smoke it and never complain of the cost. If I wanted to smoke a cigar every day or god forbid TWO cigars a day... then there is a problem.

In other words: If ammo costs aren't an issue, the GM is going soft on you when the shit hits the fan. If the shit never hits the fan then your GM isn't going soft on you, he's peddling jello.

[Tarantula]

And again, if you're going full auto, you're better off using something such as ex-ex and not SnS, since whats the point of just knocking them out by the time full-auto is a good idea.

[CanRay]

Hense my comment, right at the begining, about most Burst/Full Auto Weapons *HAVING* a Semi-Auto Mode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's what I get for being subtle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Triggerz]

I guess my whole deal was... if you're facing a Big Troll - you know the kind I'm talking about -, then two shots of S-n-S might not be enough. Hence the question in the first place about using S-n-S in full auto.

CanRay, I guess I didn't really click when I read your original comment simply because I'd never use an Ingram when a Pred does the trick. I'd only reach for the Ingram when SA just won't do. But yeah, you're right, with more money to spend, I'd go with an SMG that *does* have an SA mode too. Polyvalence is a good thing.

[CanRay]

Multifunction equipment allows for less weight carried, thus greater mobility. But the Pred has it's place as well.

The right tool, for the right job.

Pred for intimidation, Ingram for ROCK AND ROLL!!!

[Triggerz]

If the availability wasn't so high, I'd probably go with an HK Urban Combat instead, but it's on my shopping list for later. I miss Concealability stats because it made it easier to compare weapons. How big is the Urban Combat? If it's a small SMG and the Predator is a large Heavy Pistol, is the UC still bigger than the Pred? Oh! Well...

[CanRay]

Concealability rules will be one thing I will be including!

I'm sorry, but "Money" Johnson picked the Browning Ultrapower because it was a snub-nosed Autopistol. If it's classed as the same concealability as an Ares Predator IV, why bother?

[Tarantula]

I guess my whole deal was... if you're facing a Big Troll - you know the kind I'm talking about -, then two shots of S-n-S might not be enough. Hence the question in the first place about using S-n-S in full auto.

CanRay, I guess I didn't really click when I read your original comment simply because I'd never use an Ingram when a Pred does the trick. I'd only reach for the Ingram when SA just won't do. But yeah, you're right, with more money to spend, I'd go with an SMG that *does* have an SA mode too. Polyvalence is a good thing.

If you're facing a Big Troll, then we're not talking about security guards that you'll commonly run into on a run, and the money/shot aspect doesn't really matter.

[CanRay]

If you're facing a Big Troll, then we're not talking about security guards that you'll commonly run into on a run, and the money/shot aspect doesn't really matter.

Depending on the Security Firm. Some are equal opportunity employers, and understand that, sure, he eats twice as much as the rest of the security force, but he also deters five times as many problems!

[Tarantula]

And again, hes likely NOT the typical common security guard you'll run into. He might be one you run into, and frankly, thats why you have a mage in the party.

[Heath Robinson]

If the availability wasn't so high, I'd probably go with an HK Urban Combat instead, but it's on my shopping list for later. I miss Concealability stats because it made it easier to compare weapons. How big is the Urban Combat? If it's a small SMG and the Predator is a large Heavy Pistol, is the UC still bigger than the Pred? Oh! Well...

Unless it explicitly overrules concealability (although additional modifiers do not do this) then you refer to the standard table provided on page 302 of the main book that gives the concealability modifier by the class of item. Machine Pistols are +2, Heavy Pistols are +0. SMGs are +4.

[CanRay]

Unless it explicitly overrules concealability (although additional modifiers do not do this) then you refer to the standard table provided on page 302 of the main book that gives the concealability modifier by the class of item. Machine Pistols are +2, Heavy Pistols are +0. SMGs are +4.

Yeah, that's one of my complaints about 4th (GASP? Say it ain't so? The NEW GUY that supports MATRIX 2.0 Complaining about 4th?) is the removal of individual firearm concealment rules.

I've already posted my reason why.

And that's one thing I will fix toot sweet!

[Heath Robinson]

I prefer it be streamlined, one less thing to remember for every single weapon without removing the option to conceal things.

[wanderer_king]

Yeah, but I have a hard time seeing it.... All assault rifles are the same size? What about the M4 then say compared to an AUG Steyr? Or what is the point in a sawed off shot gun? I like concealability stats cause it adds a whole new calculation into what weapons to buy. It makes sometime "superior" weapons somewhat of a tradeoff.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but I have a hard time seeing it.... All assault rifles are the same size? What about the M4 then say compared to an AUG Steyr? Or what is the point in a sawed off shot gun? I like concealability stats cause it adds a whole new calculation into what weapons to buy. It makes sometime "superior" weapons somewhat of a tradeoff.

Exactly. Why buy that Browning Ultrapower and pay to have it Smartlinked when you can just get an Ares Predator IV?

[Fix-it]

Well, if you don't have a smartlink system in your eyes, or a pair of goggles/shades, then the laser sight might be a better option.

[Triggerz]

Unless it explicitly overrules concealability (although additional modifiers do not do this) then you refer to the standard table provided on page 302 of the main book that gives the concealability modifier by the class of item. Machine Pistols are +2, Heavy Pistols are +0. SMGs are +4.

Thanks. I stumbled upon it yesterday, more or less by chance. It answers my question in a very general way. I'd have liked to know relative sizes within gun categories, but I guess I'll do without for now.

[Triggerz]

And that's one thing I will fix toot sweet!

You're going to guesstimate the concealability of all SR4 weapons (based on previous edition values, I assume)? If you do, I'd very much like to have a copy of your list.

[Heath Robinson]

Yeah, but I have a hard time seeing it.... All assault rifles are the same size? What about the M4 then say compared to a Steyr AUG? Or what is the point in a sawed off shot gun? I like concealability stats cause it adds a whole new calculation into what weapons to buy. It makes sometime "superior" weapons somewhat of a tradeoff.

Sawed off shotguns reduce concealability mods (lower is better because concealability mods apply to perception checks to notice them). The main thing is that concealability mods are the exception in the new edition due to granularity changes (if previously they really varied inside categories) and therefore are more efficient in terms of information compression to note as exceptions in the flavour text of the gun. The Morissey Elite, for example, has an additional -1 concealability modifier, but having a concealability stat is pointless because it's almost certainly the only heavy pistol to have a modification beyond the standard.

So rather than having a list of +0s next to every heavy pistol entry except for one, we get a note at the end of the flavour text of the Morissey Elite saying that it gets a -1 modifier and uses light pistol ranges. Now, if you happen to want to use a quick reference this doesn't help, but your players have an incentive to remember it because of the fact that they're the ones who gain an advantage from that rule.

[Triggerz]

Well, I understand and agree with you on the advantages of having a certain standardization. It's just that there doesn't seem to be much variety in terms of concealability. Are all heavy pistols +0 except that single one HP that's a bit smaller (i.e. basically has a short barrel modification)? Pistols differ in various ways. Couldn't they differ (more) in terms of concealability as well? In the end, it's a really minor complaint though.

[Heath Robinson]

They could, but there's not enough granularity in the mechanics to permit too much. It's part of the whole "4 is the new 6" effect; a modifier of +/-1 now has more effect than it did. If you want additional variance in concealability then feel free to sprinkle some +1 concealability modifiers amongst some weapons; the Pred and Super Warhawk could have that modifier, for example.

Interestingly enough, the threshold is as for a normal perception test, so you might be better served by improving your way of hiding your weapons.

[krakjen]

I was thinking of giving a concealability bonus to trolls.
Trolls are very big (even if they got retconned a little smaller in 4th ed).
So seeing as there is no troll-sized weapons (only the grip is modified, the size or the weapon itself does not change), the weapons are proportionally smaller in their hands/pockets/holsters.
For example, a Shotgun looks more like a Heavy Pistol and a SMG like a Machine Pistol.
On the other hand, troll sized clothes/equipment are pretty big. So something like a troll-sized lined coat could be used as a tent by the rest of the team (slight exaggeration spotted).

Anyway, based on all this, I was thinking of giving a +2 concealability bonus to trolls

What do you think?

[Triggerz]

I think it makes a lot of sense. I think a +2 is pretty much right on.

[Heath Robinson]

You might want to make that a -2 modifier; they apply to a perception test to detect concealed weapons on someone else (they apply to the guard who's trying to find the Pred you have in your armpit holster). A +2 bonus makes the test more likely to succeed.