Hate of gunbunnies?, Why do you hate them? Options

[Kagetenshi]

Well, the fact that you think of it as a "fighter" certainly suggests that there is something eminently smiteable in your approach.

~J

[Solidcobra]

whatever, what should i call them? Samurai is a type of shooter, Gunbunny is another.... calling them shooters sound wrong.... so please, tell me how i should adress the holy and mighty warriors, except for "target" that is...

[Herald of Verjig...]

"Lead magnet"

[Solidcobra]

that's SUPPOSED to be the mages job......
now, excuse me while i let out some anger.....

AAUAUAUUUGGUGHGHGHGHGAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!RRRAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

ah.... much better....
honestly, fighter seems to be the fastest and most neutral term i can think of, the guy with a weapon, then you may call them whatever you want to, i was corrected when i said gunbunny, so now it's fighter....
i refuse to use a negative term for them, and i don't want to be corrected, so "fighter" soudns okay.....

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Kagetenshi]

Target works.

~J

[Siege]

To be fair, fighters and fighter-types have the hit points to take the brunt of the attack so the mages and lesser-endowed critters can return fire.

In SR terms, samurai have the body and 'ware to soak hits as necessary.

Although, a fairer approach would be to allow random determination of hits, barring obvious target indicators -- indicators like "Hi, I'm a mage...GEEK ME!"

-Siege

[Rattler]

The only reason gunslinging sammies get such a poor rep is because less capable GMs don't know how to handle them. As Glyph had mentioned before, it isn't necessarily the fault of the player if he's dominating the game. Even if the character is overpowered, the blame ultimately still lies with the GM for letting it past character generation. If you think a character is too powerful for your campaign, then just put your foot down and say "No." The problem is solved before it even begins.

Some people, for god knows what reason, perceive that it isn't the role of gunbunnies to excel at combat. The same people wouldn't have a problem with deckers specializing in computers, or faces specializing in social skills. Combat is an essential slot that needs to be filled in most games - yet, many people whine when the person(s) who fills it doesn't turn out to be a jack of all trades. Of course the sammy is going to overshadow other non-combat oriented archetypes in a firefight...you might as well complain that the rigger should be sniped in the head because no one else can drive, or the decker should be nailed with a force 50 manabolt because he completely dominates all the other players in the Matrix. That's the whole point of team: so that each character's specialty will contribute to the entire group's versatility. If everyone can do everything, you might as well run solo.

If a player feels that their skillset is too narrow, they can always pick something else up so that they can participate more in the game. That's their problem, and their's only. There's no reason for anyone to whine if they're being overshadowed in a field that they didn't specialize in by someone else who did. If your abilities are spread out more evenly, you will be able to do other things that they can't, so it all comes out even. In the end, it's the GM's job to incorporate all the necessary elements into a run so that no single player gets more of the limelight than the others.

[Kagetenshi]

But combat is the one part of the game that a wise runner will go out of their way to avoid. Everything else is part-and-parcel of running, but a runner should never get into a fair fight unless they screw up.

~J

[Siege]

[Rattler]

[gknoy]

[Siege]

Gunbunnies are unbalancing when your GM *allows* Wired 3 or Boosted + Synaptic or *shudder* Move By Wire.

And let's face it -- any character sporting that kind of 'ware is gonna be unbalancing, whether it's a Face, decker or rigger.

That's one of the reasons why I don't like million nuyen characters with no creation limitations -- it gets absurd long before the game ever starts.

However, other points have also been made with equal validity -- if we take a million nuyen samurai sporting MBW and goddess knows what else and drop him in a situation where there's nothing to kill, the character is as controlled as anyone else.

Granted, you still have all hell to pay when the MBW bunny gets to swim in his element. But that's going to be true of any specialist.

-Siege

[gknoy]

[Kagetenshi]

Check the Lone-Star Strato-9. Military-grade power in a security-oriented package with civilian-accessible prices.

~J

[Tiralee]

Let's see....

My gunbunny/spec-ops (I use a silencer :cyber: ) had a few guns skills, a whole bowl of quickness and charisma-based skills out the yin-yang.
Why?
You can't buy the best toys without being able to talk nice to people.

Sure, cybered up.
Sure, my mage bud is still scratching herself if it comes down to a simple hold-up gunplay situation, but it's HOW you play a character, be it bunny, sammy or "geeky the mage", that makes it a good game or a crappy GM-dominated "throw the baddies at the bunny" blenderfest.

Knowing when to shoot is more important than having an init so high you out-draw god.
Knowing that a massacre is tres uncool for your rep and social standing will get you a better class of runs, with a greater reward.
Knowing, before you draw the gun, where the greatest threat is, and what it is, will save you more often than a HVAR with EX rounds.


Gm's are lazy, and so are players.
I was recently playing a ganger situation with a mighty adept who had Jonny-Woo'ed her way into the safehouse, taken heads (Note - beware Dikote blades when held by Troll Adept wearing Shock gloves.) and was shredding the opposition.
Thinking ahead, she positioned herself to take out the most dangerous (to her) opposition, a large troll with an SMG. Ok, did that, not a problem. So what did she do then? "Ok, I've got a few more coming, so I'll wait for them to pop their heads around the corner."

(In all honesty, it's the first time she's played something so gun orientated, so I have to cut her some slack. But she DOES know about the cover rules...Sigh.)

She didn't think that the opposing forces would use their knowledge of the building to their advantage. Or that they'd ambush her ("Ok, surprise situation, roll reaction." "Huh? You haven't described them to me yet...CRAP!" "(Evil Grin)) and knock her down to very damaged through her armour-clad ass.

[Funnily enough, geeky the mage kicked their hoops, even with mod stun, using his pistol skill. ]

I think of these things, my players NOW think of these thing. All GMs should think of these things. You're not fighting mindless constructs, these fraggers don't want to die and it should show.

L.

It's Darwinian. The stupid die first. So play smart and don't whine, meat. :rotfl:

[gknoy]

[Kagetenshi]

All of them.
I still find it amusing that the time you came closest to dying thus far was against a group of guys armed with nonlethal rounds. (Narcoject)

~J

[Tanka]

Simple: You shoot the guy that's watching you through the scope of his Barret.

[Glyph]

There is another complaint that often comes up in regards to gun bunnies that I would like to address. This is the notion that someone who is much better at combat than the rest of the group is "unbalancing". Hogwash. That's just lazy thinking from GMs who make every run devolve into little more than heavy combat. The gun bunny outclasses others in a firefight because that is the gun bunny's role. He is a specialist, because a shadowrunning team is composed of specialists who work together.

That's something a lot of people seem to forget - a running team needs people to break into the security, hack into the mainframe, deal with magical guardians, negotiate the best payment for the team, etc. The gun bunny doesn't complain when he is decking a public node to call up the hotel plans while the decker is busy doing the more important hacking. He doesn't whine when the face does most of the talking with the Johnson and he only brings up a relevant tactical point when it's important. He lets the rigger do the driving, and he lets the mage take care of the corporate compound's wards.

But whenever a firefight breaks out, everyone cries: "Wahhh! My character can't kill as many people as his character can, even though that's not even my character's main area of expertise!" or "Wahhh! My character got involved in a firefight when he should have been taking cover to let the gun bunny do his job, and now I'm wounded! It's the gun bunny's fault!"

I'll give some advice to the GMs: tailor the opposition to the gun bunny, and if the other players get caught in the crossfire, tell them "What the hell were you doing out there? That part of the run's not your job."


Note: Yes, other characters can support the gun bunny in combat. But they should still know when to take cover and let him handle the heavy stuff - just like the sammie might step back and let the adept with a weapon focus handle a toxic city spirit.

[mfb]

no kidding. my character's got 12+4d6 init, 8 skill in his chosen weapons, and six points of pain resistance. guess what? you don't see him slinging code very often! instead, you see him shooting people in the face (or, more probably, getting kicked in the ribs).

yes, it can be a problem when a player doesn't fill out his gunbunny character beyond "he was in the Paladins and they gave him lots of cyberware and he wears sunglasses all the time". but that's a problem for any character type.

[Xirces]

I think the biggest problem with players whining about gunbunnies is that combat is almost totally controlled by the dice. Initiative and skill are determined by the numbers and most players don't have enough appreciation of tactics to sway combat their way (I've certainly never held a gun, nevermind actually been involved in a firefight). However, when it comes to negotiations anyone can get involved, no matter what the numbers say. I realise that the same holds true for decking and rigging, but I definitely think it's a factor.

Personally I always make sure that every character has some combat skill and that combat types have other skills/contacts to actually get by. I also have a tendency to play combat types who try and avoid combat.

I remember years ago playing CP2020 - I had a heavily chromed Solo with high combat skills - the other characters were pretty weak in comparison and got into a bar fight when knives were drawn. I headed straight for the door and waited outside with pistol drawn (just in case one of them followed me), whilst the rest of the team slugged it out with some thugs, getting slowly beaten. I could have easily turned the tide, but given the ease of dying and randomness of combat thought it better not to. To me that's the essence of combat-type characters - knowing when to fight and when not to, especially in high risk systems like SR has become.

[Rattler]

[Birdy]

Combat is bad, don't draw a gun, Magic is the key, blablabla...

Sorry guy but has anyone ever thought about the idea that some groups actually like! the occassional violence? That the combination of near future/scifi (I HATE fantasy) with some action is what they are looking for?

If I want to play one of those "better" and "more challenging" characters like a decker/face/... I don't have to play - I pull extra hours on my job! There I have to discuss, make detailed plans, keep tight shedules and all the stuff. When I sit down at the gaming table I really don't need some "No combat I'm the mage fay" players who turn the game into another hours long discussion and end up with a "let's talk this through/be all nice" solution.

F*** "advanced roleplaying"

Michael

[JAG]