Help making a Martial Artist Options

[trollface666]

I have been looking around the various threads and have found decent info here and there. New to 4th ed... used to play 2nd, so I am SOOOO lost as to what to make for Friday's game.

What I am looking to make is a close combat Troll martial artist. I have read that making a 'dodge' type martial artist is the way to go. I understand that I can just be shot up while trying to close the distance to targets, but that is a negative I am willing to take. Would this be best by going straight cyber/Bio or an Adept or what?

I had an idea of going Healing ( another thread I made ) but I don't have the time to learn magic.

What are needed to make a killer 'Panther Cannon' punching/kicking/whatever, dodging-like-a-mofo melee troll? I am thinking along the lines of a champion prize fighter boxer ( who has those wonderful over lapping martial art skills for added dice yumminess of course ).

Any links? Suggestions? I know a response may take a while to write up, so thank you in advance.

[kzt]

Make sure to have some levels in gun-fu too.

[trollface666]

I am looking to have a character that is a walking death sentence to anyone in close combat. As far as gun-fu... This is my first game in SR since the days of 2nd ed. I will be learning everything crash course and modifying the character as the runs go by to suit my role playing needs. So if the current system equals Ranged > Melee every time, then that is something i am going to have to learn the hard way.

[ArkonC]

Melee can be devastating, just like ranged, but why limit yourself?
Being hell on wheels in melee is all good and well, but what did Indy do to the looney with the swords?
A combo I personally enjoy is a melee character with heavy weapons as ranged backup, but yes, you should have some variety of gun-fu...

[Glyph]

A melee specialist is extremely expensive to make, but you definitely should have a ranged skill at 4 with a specialization, even though skills will probably be pretty bare-bones otherwise. With the high Agility and multiple IPs that you will want for melee, you will also be pretty good at ranged combat.

An adept with bioware is the most effective option, but a mundane troll with cyberware and bioware isn't bad if you take the right mix - muscle augmentation and toner, some initiative enhancement, dermal sheath, ceramic bone lacing, reakt, and a reflex recorder can all add up to an impressive package.

[Critias]

While it's a good time to be a melee badass (almost all my characters can at least hold their own in a fist fight, all the moreso recently as I've gotten into the martial arts a bit IRL), there's no reason to gimp yourself by having no real ranged ability. Sink a few character points into pistol, pick up a specialization you like, and buy a solid, high-damage, handgun. You won't regret it.

[Prospero]

I agree with Glyph - IMO to be a really bad-ass melee char, you need min 2 IPs and 3 is what will really make you good (4 is, well, something I've never wanted to sacrifice enough other stuff to achieve, but it'd be nice). Since you can spend IPs do go on full D and dodge ranged attacks better (high dodge skill is also good), 3 IPs will allow you to dodge an attack or 2 and still get in an attack of your own after you close on the shooter. I'd also take some good armor stuff. I would worry about Str later, since it'll probably be pretty good anyway being that you're a troll. Use your cyber more on the speed and agility side of things.

As far as weapons go, unarmed is not bad (maybe think about bone lacing or bone density aug for added damage). Also, for melee weapons, you can't go wrong with a nodachi (however it is totally useless in some types of campaigns because of the size, so check with your GM first) as a troll you'd have a net 3 reach, sick, plus -2 AP, sick, plus Str/2+4 damage, sick. Sort of the panther cannon of melee. Another good melee weapon is the punch dagger (katar). Str/2+2, but still -2 AP and if you mod it so it's made from ceramic materials and doesn't trip MADs, you can conceal it well enough in appropriate clothes.

[sunnyside]

Alright despite the nay sayers here, it sounds like you know the risks going in. So lets talk about a character.

Personally, I'm in the dodgy guy camp. That's what will make you a star. Here's the reason. Even if a dodgy guy doesn't actually get to hit someone, what they will have done is draw a lot of fire. And you will be dodging that so well I hereby ban you from wearing black and shades due to the annoyance of matrix references.

What might such a character look like? Well I'll try to put together a skeleton of a simple one (you sound like you dont' want to bother with remembering a lot of extra stuff).

Ok I'd say go with magic 6 get 6 points in combat sense. Then maybe get two levels in improved reflexes (if you really want to min/max instead get a level two synaptic accelerator, maybe some other bioware but this sucks up a lot of BP)

For skills you'll obviously want to put a high score in unarmed combat. But don't forget to put a high score in gymnastics(or dodge) with a specialization in bullets!

Here's how you can operate. On the first initiative pass you go on full defence and RUN.

Assuming you have at least a reasonable 5 base reaction and level 4 skill that gives you
5(reaction)+2(improved reflexes)+6(combat sense)+1(running)+6 (level 4 gymnasics dodge bullets spec)=20 dice on dodging

That isn't foolproof. In a hail of multiple people firing full auto wide patterns you'll probably start getting into trouble. But in most cases you'll be very very hard to hit.

Anyway so you use your first initiative pass to dodge. Use the next one to run (another skill you'll want plenty of!) , and if you're lucky your third action will be to cave someones head in. Note that your movement in this case will likely be over 40 meters. 40 meters is a long way in practice. In an urban setting you'll often get to close fast.


Of course you can balance things out. Like drop two levels of combat sense to get a couple more dice or some effect when you attack.


Oh and learn the special close combat rules. There aren't meany. But you'll want to be down with things like subdual combat and especially interception.

[ArkonC]

Alright despite the nay sayers here, it sounds like you know the risks going in. So lets talk about a character.

I didn't know giving advice was being a nay-sayer...
And he himself said "I will be learning everything crash course", which, in fact, indicates he doesn't know...

Ok I'd say go with magic 6 get 6 points in combat sense. Then maybe get two levels in improved reflexes (if you really want to min/max instead get a level two synaptic accelerator, maybe some other bioware but this sucks up a lot of BP)

I wouldn't hardmax magic, softmaxing it gives you Combat Sense 4 and Improved Reflexes 2, which is sufficient, and it frees up 25 BP...

For skills you'll obviously want to put a high score in unarmed combat. But don't forget to put a high score in gymnastics(or dodge) with a specialization in bullets!

There is no gymnastics specialization for dodging bullets, or dodging at all, the dodge skill has ranged and melee as spec though...

All right, as a melee character, you need to have a "vector of delivery"...
Some possibilities:
- Stealth: Possible to do, but somehow the thought of a sneaking Troll just doesn't... Make sense...
- Dodging: If you can avoid getting hit, it doesn't matter how long you take to get there, but no matter how good you are, you will get shot...
- Taking it like a man: Why avoid getting hit when you can just take it without flinching? Just layer on all different types of damage resistance...
Now, in the game I currently play in, the adept is a close combat guy, who is good at all 3 of these things and still he ends up drawing his gun because it is just quicker, by the time he would have reached the mooks, the rest would have shot them...
Of course, when he does get close, the rest can holster their guns...
And being a melee character, all you need to shoot is 4 to 18BP for the skill (1 to 4+spec) and less than 1 for the firearm and smartlink and whatever else you need to trick it out...

If you spend all your power points on survival powers, you wont have any to spend on melee powers, but for 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you can get some hardliner gloves which give you (STR/2+1)P and this way you have time to start boosting your melee prowess...

Also, don't forget about drugs, some of them are pretty sweet...

[Glyph]

I wouldn't play an adept without bioware - pure adepts are good for numerous roles, but not close combat, especially unarmed, where you need to spend so many points getting killing hands, critical strike, improved ability in unarmed combat, a point of counterstrike, and then some combat sense if you can afford it.

Trolls are good at soaking damage, because their Reaction isn't penalized (they can dodge as well as an elf can), but they also have a high Body, which not only helps them soak damage, but also lets them wear lots of armor.

But don't overspecialize in dodge. Instead, have a ranged skill for ranged combat, so you can take cover and return fire instead of having to weather several attacks just to close on a target. Being the best at unarmed combat does not mean it is the optimal tactic in all circumstances! It is good at close range, or in environments that penalize ranged combat (fog, lots of natural cover, etc.). Also, it's unlikely you will be able to afford a decent infiltration skill at char-gen, but pick it up as soon as possible. When you can sneak up on people, close combat becomes a much better tactic.

[samuelbeckett]

If your sole priority is to dominate in melee, then an adept with bioware is the only way to go, but they are BP costly and tend to be pretty one-dimensional.

Basically, IMHO melee domination is all about avoiding being hit and then inflicting maximum damage, and adepts with bio are the hands down best in both those roles, thanks to Combat Sense, Critical Strike, Improved Ability and lovely bio like Bone Density, Muscle Toner and Synaptic Accelerator. Bone Density is expensive on the essence, but is like getting Killing Hands and 3 levels of Critical Strike along with +4 Body for soak, so provided you don't want to beat down on spirits a lot, I think it is a better buy than Killing Hands. If you have Street Magic and Arsenal, the addition of Penetrating Strike and a smattering of the Martial Arts increase the damage output dramatically.

I have found it quite possible to build a human melee adept for 400 points that has a melee attack pool of 17 dice, a melee block pool of 21 dice, a ranged full defense of 15 dice and a base Unarmed Combat damage of 13P with -2AP, which is damn near .50 cal sniper rifle damage. He does only have 2 IP, but a full defense, free action move and then whack would usually cripple/kill most stuff within reach, particularly as only one net attack success is enough for major hurt.

Of course, I agree with the others that being that focused is rarely a good idea in a Shadowrun game, and losing a little effectiveness to gain some more utility through ranged combat skills and/or powers that help on the astral or against magical critters will probably help you in the long run, depending on the make up of the rest of your party.

[ElFenrir]

Well, let's see. I have two melee specialized characters myself; not trolls, but one human and one elf. In our group im sort of the expert on this subject these days, though there are things even I needed help with(some manuvers, for example).

Race-wise, Trolls are good, but no longer the dominating force at melee anymore. If you want to play a troll just to play a troll, though, then go for it. Take character prefrence over advantages in combat, naturally, but Trolls don't have the massive advantage anymore over their other counterparts.

To be sure, they CAN still soak hits with the best of them, but with the 1/2 Str being applied now, their huge numbers don't mean as much. On top of it, everyone can get the Martial Arts skills from Arsenal to up their DV. On top of THAT their Agility takes a hit, so unless you get genetech or Exceptional Attribute, both expensive, you'll be running with less average Agility which is the combat skill. on top of THAT, even regular folks can get +1 reach with the Kick Attack manuver. So again, they aren't bad, play a troll to play a troll, though, and not thinking there will be an advantage. (I wasn't saying you were, but i figured i'd clear this up at the beginning, since ive known some folks that were a bit dissapointed coming from 2-3 to 4 when it came to trolls.)

That being said, the folks here have some good tips. I did take some kind of ranged weapon for both of them. One of them(the human) despises using guns, but he figures it's good to have SOME ranged capability, I gave him Throwing Weapons. He's got high Agility and Strength to use these with. And i went Cyber for both of them, too(for the record, Originally the human was an Adept with Bioware but i though Cyber fit the whole thing better so i went with it).

If you go Cyber:

-Bone Lacing, as high a level as you can. We don't play with Availability at chargen, so i was able to get Titanium. But whatever's allowed, go for it.

-Muscle Augmentation and Toner. You want to pump the Agility and Strength. If you go with Troll, you will definately want Agility. (one thing i love about elf martial artists, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) I managed to get a Suprathyroid, luckily. If you guys don't play with Availability either; Suprathyroids are good buys, if not a bit expensive.

-Synthacardium. You'll want to combine this with Gymnastics Dodge, if you want to play a Captain Dodge type of martial artists. 3 levels of this, plus a good Gymnastics score and you'll be dodging hella well.

-That being said, pick up some Reaction Enhancers and a good Reaction. If you go troll, you CAN get away with a lower Strength. You'll be making up for the DV with Bone Lacing and Muscle Augmentation. Honestly, you could leave Strength at 5(that's sort of the number i shoot for making a melee fighter-regardless of race), bring it to 7 with Aug, and between the Martial Arts DV bonuses and Bone Lacing, you'll be JUST fine. (I went stronger for both of my guys, but that was more for character purposes of intimidation factor.)

-If you can some more armor like a Dermal Sheath. Armor is good if you have to close in.

-And yeah, at least 2, try for 3 IPs.

-Don't neglect Edge.

-If you can, Enhanced Articulation will also help your Athletics.

Bio Adepts are nasty too; a couple points of Bio(a synaptic booster, muscle toner, synthacardium, etc.), and you can still have stuff to play with; but keep in mind, playing a troll bio-adept is going to be VERY expensive. (points for magic, points for troll, points for resources, etc.) I would say here the powers, once you take care of the Critical Strike, Elemental Strike(these are nice), Killing Hands if you want it, you can take Increased Gymnastics, maybe, if you want the Dodge Master, and Combat Sense is pretty good for that, too. (Perhaps Biocompatibility can help with the essence loss here). Then again, Biocompatibility is just an awesome positive quality, IMO.


As for the elf i made, he uses guns sometimes, but he's almost made for just 100% sheer insane over the top fun; he's got a pair of near maxed cyberlegs and a torso; with foot anchors, and blades in all four limbs. Do not try this at home without permission. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) The GM had given me permission to have some fun here, since he's only in the group for three sessions or so every six months, he does't really throw off the campaign. (His words are...''if you bring me some more six-siders, you can do that.'' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) But custom-attribute, modular cyberlimbs are fantastic for martial artists, too. You can get ones that increase damage with punches, throwing, kicking, or hitting with weapons, the stats can be boosted to pretty scary levels(even WITH the availability rule, without it, trust me, it gets nuts.) Going this route is possible, too.

All of THAT being said, in the end play the race you want. Elves have the Agility benefit(and you can get their Strength up without a problem), Humans have Edge, Trolls have the Body/soaking lots of hits advantage, Dwarves...honestly i don't see to many martial arts dwarves; however their Willpower bonus can help with the Stun Damage.(Which, with a lot of armor, you may well be taking alot of.) Orks have Body going for them, a bit of Strength and don't take the Agility hit that Trolls to.

But skillset and quality wise; get 3-4 levels of Martial Arts of choice, at least 4-5 manuvers, appropriate combat skill, a backup combat skill, a great Dodge/Gymnastics/Athletics Group and then you can round out with skills of choice.

I have found it quite possible to build a human melee adept for 400 points that has a melee attack pool of 17 dice, a melee block pool of 21 dice, a ranged full defense of 15 dice and a base Unarmed Combat damage of 13P with -2AP, which is damn near .50 cal sniper rifle damage. He does only have 2 IP, but a full defense, free action move and then whack would usually cripple/kill most stuff within reach, particularly as only one net attack success is enough for major hurt.

Hmm...is this Human, Strength 5(7)[4 DV], 6 levels of Critical Strike[10DV], 2 from MA[12 DV] and Hardliner Gloves[13DV]?, with Penetrating Strike: 2? and i think it's the 5(7] Agility, with 6(+2) MA[15], and two extra dice from MA as well for the attack pool? My cyber human hits for 11 DV(9 Strength, 2 MA, 3 Bone Lacing, 1 Hardliner), so it's not far off; adepts naturally can go higher. I think my fellow defends full with...17 dice(7 Unarmed, 7 Reaction, 2 Synthacardium, 1 Athletics), and ranged full at...11. Did you take Combat Sense to help that?

The elf hits with his arms for very strong but reasonable amounts(around 7 DV after all said and done); but he kicks for crazy stupid amounts if i start tacking on his Nightengale Feet of Fury and/or Raptor Legs. (Sometimes i prefer using his normal legs, though, taking a very small DV hit but using his varied foot/leg blades. It's still stupid damage though, making most people RATHER take the hit from the sniper rifle.) It's more or less if he kicks someone, it's the Team Rocket/Godhand effect.(unless they hit a wall. Yikes.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But again, martial arts are mega fun; but definately get a little rounding out in there. Even if it's throwing weapons with some flash-bangs(great to have.)

[Aaron]

You need to do whatever it takes to get a nice high ranged defense dice pool, which is to say buff that Reaction. You'll need it to avoid damage while you get into Cuisinart range.

[samuelbeckett]

Hmm...is this Human, Strength 5(7)[4 DV], 6 levels of Critical Strike[10DV], 2 from MA[12 DV] and Hardliner Gloves[13DV]?, with Penetrating Strike: 2? and i think it's the 5(7] Agility, with 6(+2) MA[15], and two extra dice from MA as well for the attack pool? My cyber human hits for 11 DV(9 Strength, 2 MA, 3 Bone Lacing, 1 Hardliner), so it's not far off; adepts naturally can go higher. I think my fellow defends full with...17 dice(7 Unarmed, 7 Reaction, 2 Synthacardium, 1 Athletics), and ranged full at...11. Did you take Combat Sense to help that?

The elf hits with his arms for very strong but reasonable amounts(around 7 DV after all said and done); but he kicks for crazy stupid amounts if i start tacking on his Nightengale Feet of Fury and/or Raptor Legs. (Sometimes i prefer using his normal legs, though, taking a very small DV hit but using his varied foot/leg blades. It's still stupid damage though, making most people RATHER take the hit from the sniper rifle.) It's more or less if he kicks someone, it's the Team Rocket/Godhand effect.(unless they hit a wall. Yikes.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But again, martial arts are mega fun; but definately get a little rounding out in there. Even if it's throwing weapons with some flash-bangs(great to have.)

Close, it is human, Strength 4 (Base DV 2), Bone Density 4 (+3), Critical Strike 4 (+4), various MAs (+4) = 13P. Add in Penetrating Strike 2 for the -2 AP. To be honest, I hadn't bothered with the hardliner gloves. Attack pool is Agility 5[6] with Unarmed Combat 6, Improved Ability 2, Reflex Recorder 1 and Specialisation in Martial Arts 2 = 17 dice. Combat Sense 3, Reaction 4[5] and Gymnastics (Tumbling) 5(7) gives 17 dice Full Ranged Defense when he has room to tumble, and the Unarmed Combat and Combat Sense combine with +2 Block from MA to give the 21 dice normal Melee Block.

So a holy terror in melee, but no ranged capability and limited utility (Perception 4[6], Con 1[3] and Pilot: Groundcraft 1[3] being the extent of his other skills).

His background was ex-Aztlan pit fighter turned Corp personal bodyguard due to a friendly Wage Mage (whose dirty vice was betting on pit fights).

EDIT: Forgot to mention - manuevers are your friend - the character above had a combination of Riposte and Finishing Move (cause two lots of 13P damage are always better than one) along with Multi-Strike (good for clearing mooks), Watchful Guard (helps stop defense pool reduction) and Groundfighting (kill people from any position!) - in fact, buy Arsenal immediately if you don't have it, as the Martial Arts rules are essential for building a better melee monster...

EDIT EDIT: Last comment was explicitly aimed at the OP...

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Also, advantage of bio-adepts is that they don't show up on metal detectors, so air travel is not a problem - try getting your bladed cyberlimb or trick Barrett 121 on a plane (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ElFenrir]

Close, it is human, Strength 4 (Base DV 2), Bone Density 4 (+3), Critical Strike 4 (+4), various MAs (+4) = 13P. Add in Penetrating Strike 2 for the -2 AP. To be honest, I hadn't bothered with the hardliner gloves. Attack pool is Agility 5[6] with Unarmed Combat 6, Improved Ability 2, Reflex Recorder 1 and Specialisation in Martial Arts 2 = 17 dice. Combat Sense 3, Reaction 4[5] and Gymnastics (Tumbling) 5(7) gives 17 dice Full Ranged Defense when he has room to tumble, and the Unarmed Combat and Combat Sense combine with +2 Block from MA to give the 21 dice normal Melee Block.

So a holy terror in melee, but no ranged capability and limited utility (Perception 4[6], Fast Talk 1[3] and Pilot: Groundcraft 1[3] being the extent of his other skills).

His background was ex-Aztlan pit fighter turned Corp personal bodyguard due to a friendly Wage Mage (who dirty vice was betting on pit fights).

That does sound pretty cool. It would actually fit in with a pit fighter story that he might not have too many ranged as well.

It goes to show you can go about making a melee terror in several different ways as well, and you don't even need a high Strength to do so. a 4 is a really good natural stat in SR4 anyway. And i had forgotten about the good ol Reflex Recorder, that helps too-and the improved ability. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the largest unarmed die pool I managed to get was with the elf, at a completely redonk 20 dice before the Kick Attack reach is worked in, for 21. Again, he is played about six sessions a year, i'd feel guilty playing him any more than that, as he really is just my 'i had to get it out of my system' guy that sometimes we make. On top of that, i actually could have gotten him 2 more dice...but i didn't. I had to finally say no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (And he scarily has a fairly decent mix of other skills to help out. Again, Custom Attribute Cyberslimbs=The Awesome. Cyberlimbs literally went from being Made of Suckobtanium to Awesomeobtanium with one book.)

But really, even with Availability in check and not going overboard, martial artists now can be very, very good if you make em right and play em carefully.

EDIT: I also agree with poster above: Get Manuvers. Save at least 10 BP worth. Finishing Move and Riposte with Watchful Guard are biggies, Set Up is nice and Ground Fighting is great, too. Hell, about ALL of them are good, depending on your style.

[trollface666]

Wow, this community is very helpful!

Let me explain a few things....

Our shadowrun group will be playing Doc Wagon employees, but I am sure some time down the line we will be fired, or whatever, and no longer be Doc Wagon. That is what the GM has implied. This is why I originally wanted a healing character, but, my feelings have changed and now I want a meat stick.

This may sound odd, but I need to know what my character has on/in him first. Once I have a character finished on paper, thats when I can decide what I can strip off to modify my runner to suit my role playing needs. So I like to start off with the min/max power character, and mold him into a role playing character.

As a comic book artist, I finally want to know what my runner looks like after a few runs ( after I strip 'stuff' off of him to satisfy myself ) so I can draw him, which is the ultimate goal.

That is the reason I just wanted a pure melee, so I can get familair with the rules, and when I play, learn the hard way how initiative passes work, how deadly damage is in this version, how my new GM role plays, etc.... After a game or two, I can say "Well, I don't need this much dodge, or this much 'power' in melee, or, I might want to make a Healer anyway! Once I 'draw' my runner, its a done deal, especially since it takes me about 4 hours to draw a runner. I am a bit embarrassed, but here is an example of a sketch I did last year... Jeorge the Adept

Once again, thanks for all your help!

[Lionhearted]

There's only one way to go for a melee troll, and it's spelled Titanium bone lacing

[trollface666]

Its availability of 16 makes it unavailable for my campaign right now.

[samuelbeckett]

There's only one way to go for a melee troll, and it's spelled Titanium bone lacing

I beg to differ...

Bone Density 4 is less Essence, more soak, passes straight through MAD scanners and is only availability 12 - admittedly it is twice the cost, but at least it is available at char gen.

[Lionhearted]

what about extra unarmed dmg?

[Daier Mune]

admittedly it is twice the cost, but at least it is available at char gen.

thats why they make budgetware.

[ArkonC]

what about extra unarmed dmg?

Bone Density 4 does (STR/2+3)P...

[samuelbeckett]

Bone Density 4 does (STR/2+3)P...

And of course the best bit is that it is totally legal, so even if some sort of bioscan detects it, you can just claim you had brittle bones when you were a child - the wonders of medical science!

[ElFenrir]

i kinda think about it like Synaptic 2 vs. Wired 2. Synaptic 2 is craploads more expensive but more Essence friendly. Wired 2(Alphaware) costs almost 1/3 of what Synaptic 2 costs, but is heavier on Essence.

In the case of Titanium Bone Lacing vs. Bone Density-it's kinda funny, one is higher availability than the other, but they both do the same thing-and in a way, BD is even BETTER. Except for the cost. I wonder why Titanium Bone Lacing is so high in Availability this time around, to be honest. It used to be available at chargen in SR3-while the Monowhip wasn't. Nowadays anyone can buy a Monowhip at chargen.

(Short derail: This is just one of the reasons we don't use Availability rules at chargen. It's never added anything to our games, it's never made sense and we have alot more fun just doing it 'unspoken' style of getting stuff that fits the character, regardless of numbers. I just find it odd that some stuff that is well, 'better' is available, and some isn't, and some stuff used to be available, and not now, and vice versa. Ok, end derail. I might end up with another thread on this in the near future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[Lionhearted]

I would like a to see a supremely fit troll get away with that xD