[X] My Assistant

[Rad]

i kinda think about it like Synaptic 2 vs. Wired 2. Synaptic 2 is craploads more expensive but more Essence friendly. Wired 2(Alphaware) costs almost 1/3 of what Synaptic 2 costs, but is heavier on Essence.

In the case of Titanium Bone Lacing vs. Bone Density-it's kinda funny, one is higher availability than the other, but they both do the same thing-and in a way, BD is even BETTER. Except for the cost. I wonder why Titanium Bone Lacing is so high in Availability this time around, to be honest. It used to be available at chargen in SR3-while the Monowhip wasn't. Nowadays anyone can buy a Monowhip at chargen.

(Short derail: This is just one of the reasons we don't use Availability rules at chargen. It's never added anything to our games, it's never made sense and we have alot more fun just doing it 'unspoken' style of getting stuff that fits the character, regardless of numbers. I just find it odd that some stuff that is well, 'better' is available, and some isn't, and some stuff used to be available, and not now, and vice versa. Ok, end derail. I might end up with another thread on this in the near future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

Market forces in action, lol.

Availability (and as a result, price) shifts in nonsensical ways IRL too.

[Beetle]

I made a walking death machine last night for close combat. I had initially based him off of Jet Li's character from Unleashed. I fleshed him out a tad for some things like being a little sneaky and able to drive a motor cycle. Skill wise he's sort of a one trick pony, but my group is pretty heavy on RP and it would be a fun thing for me to play up.

I made an Ork Adept and he can drop a base 13P fist in your face and be on full defense at the same time. Strength 7, Magic 5 with Improved Reflexes 2 (3 points), Critical Strike 5 (1.25 points), Killing Hands (.5 points) and Sustenance (.25) took it fir RP reasons.
Then drop 20BP into Martial Arts. Picked up the +1 DV to Unarmed Combat from Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Muay Thai (twice)
Quality wise I've got Adept (5), Martial Arts (20), and Ambidexterity (5). For negatives Uncouth (20), Simsense Vertigo (10), Incompetence Automatics (5). he's got a long way to go before he can be socially accepted, but it fits with the character.

I also dropped 10 BP on the martial arts maneuvers Break Weapon, Finishing Move, Set Up, Throw and Two Weapon Style (going on full defense and attacking without penalty is nice, he uses brass knuckles as his weapons)

Those are my tips for making a melee monster/one trick pony

[Triggerz]

I made a walking death machine last night for close combat. I had initially based him off of Jet Li's character from Unleashed. I fleshed him out a tad for some things like being a little sneaky and able to drive a motor cycle. Skill wise he's sort of a one trick pony, but my group is pretty heavy on RP and it would be a fun thing for me to play up.

I made an Ork Adept and he can drop a base 13P fist in your face and be on full defense at the same time. Strength 7, Magic 5 with Improved Reflexes 2 (3 points), Critical Strike 5 (1.25 points), Killing Hands (.5 points) and Sustenance (.25) took it fir RP reasons.
Then drop 20BP into Martial Arts. Picked up the +1 DV to Unarmed Combat from Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Muay Thai (twice)
Quality wise I've got Adept (5), Martial Arts (20), and Ambidexterity (5). For negatives Uncouth (20), Simsense Vertigo (10), Incompetence Automatics (5). he's got a long way to go before he can be socially accepted, but it fits with the character.

I also dropped 10 BP on the martial arts maneuvers Break Weapon, Finishing Move, Set Up, Throw and Two Weapon Style (going on full defense and attacking without penalty is nice, he uses brass knuckles as his weapons)

Those are my tips for making a melee monster/one trick pony

Two Weapon Style is awesome. It adds your skill in bonus dice for 2BP! Pretty much all the time! So, in my opinion, to really kick ass in melee combat, Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Style are essential. You might use your hands most of the time, if that's what you prefer, but when you're facing a really skilled opponent, then you draw your knives, short swords or whatever it is that you want to wield two of.

Since you'll play a troll, it would sort of waste your high-strength advantage, but Firefight and Krav Maga with a (melee-hardened) gun in each hand aren't too bad either (because your opponents get much fewer dice to resist the damage, i.e. Reaction instead of Reaction + Skill). If your GM allows it - it depends on how one reads the Two Weapon Style rule -, you could use Two Weapon Style to be on Full Defense (using the guns as Clubs) and shoot two rounds as normal with one of the guns. Anyways, I thought I'd mention it just to complete the full range of melee tricks. There's some pretty good advice in this thread!

[Triggerz]

You could also go the Naruto way and make your Adept a Mystic Adept with a Sasuke-style "Full-Body Chidori" with the spell Electricity Aura. Traceless Walk plus Invisibility means that they don't see you and they don't hear you either. They just see people dying one after another as you run around chopping heads off. Anyways, just a thought.

[Lionhearted]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Two Weapon Style is awesome. It adds your skill in bonus dice for 2BP! Pretty much all the time! So, in my opinion, to really kick ass in melee combat, Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Style are essential. You might use your hands most of the time, if that's what you prefer, but when you're facing a really skilled opponent, then you draw your knives, short swords or whatever it is that you want to wield two of.

Since you'll play a troll, it would sort of waste your high-strength advantage, but Firefight and Krav Maga with a (melee-hardened) gun in each hand aren't too bad either (because your opponents get much fewer dice to resist the damage, i.e. Reaction instead of Reaction + Skill). If your GM allows it - it depends on how one reads the Two Weapon Style rule -, you could use Two Weapon Style to be on Full Defense (using the guns as Clubs) and shoot two rounds as normal with one of the guns. Anyways, I thought I'd mention it just to complete the full range of melee tricks. There's some pretty good advice in this thread! .

Am i the only one thinking gun kata? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[ElFenrir]

Actually, would Two-Weapon help my White Death cyber-elf at all? He's had Ambidexterity since he's had his hand razors.

But now, He uses his legs alot more often, due to them being much more powered than his arms now. Do legs count as weapons? Or would he have to be using his foot anchors/retractable boot knives?

Because something just silly popped into my head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

BTW: in the refrence to Gun Kata, you all know DAMN well that was why they put Firefight in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[piiman]

The only thing i can say if you are going to be a martial artist up close type of person is get some infiltrate, cause if you have a gunbunny, by the time you reach the target, your team would of probably of mowed the guy down already (Its a problem i have with my unarmed martial artist that i made, he had about 20 dice into unarmed with a 8 str and adept killing hands 4)

P.S. get running to close distances faster

[Beetle]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Am i the only one thinking gun kata? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Oh how I love Equilibrium. Doesn't fit my particular character, but load up on Firefight and a few maneuvers and i think it'd be pretty easy to pull off.

[kzt]

Our shadowrun group will be playing Doc Wagon employees, but I am sure some time down the line we will be fired, or whatever, and no longer be Doc Wagon. That is what the GM has implied. This is why I originally wanted a healing character, but, my feelings have changed and now I want a meat stick.

It makes pretty much no sense for DW to hire someone for close combat. They are defensive, not offensive. They don't close with and destroy people, they shoot and boogie. And if your only combat skill involves you running into the guys that your heavy machineguns are busy hosing down I can see some issues here.

[Daier Mune]

In the case of Titanium Bone Lacing vs. Bone Density-it's kinda funny, one is higher availability than the other, but they both do the same thing-and in a way, BD is even BETTER. Except for the cost. I wonder why Titanium Bone Lacing is so high in Availability this time around, to be honest. It used to be available at chargen in SR3-while the Monowhip wasn't. Nowadays anyone can buy a Monowhip at chargen.

Titanium gives +1 ballistic/Impact armor in addition to it's +body. not that i think it justifies the high avail cost.

[ElFenrir]

Gotcha. Well, in a way, the +1 Ball/Impact can make up for the fact it's scannable by MADs. So they both give + to damage resistance, + to unarmed damage, Titanium gives a ballistic/impact point, but is essence heavy. Cheaper. Bone Density is not scannable by MAD, more expensive, more essence friendly.

Yeah, really, i dunno why they are 4 availability points apart.

But either way; they are both good for a martial artist to get, definately.

Ceramic isn't a bad deal either; if i recall it's legal if you use Availability, gives +2 Impact armor. It might be otherwise like Aluminum? Aluminum might be the better deal if you use the cyber and have to watch Availability. Depends how bad you want the extra Impact point(unless the ceramic gave a bigger boost to damage resistance. Can't recall and don't have Augmentation in front of me.)

[Glyph]

Ceramic gives +2 to damage resistance, +2 impact armor, and +2 damage, and doesn't show up on MAD detectors - which is good, since bone lacing is legality code F (which I don't quite understand, especially since you don't even need a permit for bone density augmentation). Slightly better than aluminum bone lacing (1 more point of impact armor, otherwise the same), making it the best bone lacing option you can get at char-gen using standard Availability rules.


One combo of adept power + martial arts maneuver that I want to mention - get a level of counterstrike, which lets you add net successes from blocking to your attack roll when you retaliate, and get the riposte maneuver. When you are attacked, use full defense, then use the riposte maneuver to immediately counterattack, with all of those extra successes from full defense boosting your attack roll. An adept with two-weapon style can do the same thing, except it doesn't even cost them any extra actions, since they effectively have full defense all the time.

[Critias]

Why would DocWagon hire a troll whose only skill is "beating people to death?" I know they're sometimes a fan of hiring combat-oriented folks to whom medical training is a distant second place, but it seems to me that those guys would be the ones that lay down the suppressive fire from the chopper, and that sort of thing. I have trouble imagining them flying low for a pass and dropping a troll out the side hatch to clear an area with his fists, then doubling back to pick up their target.

[Glyph]

There are probably guys with fourth-degree black belts who work in accounting. The troll happens to be a martial artist, but if DocWagon hired him, it was probably because he's a big, tough troll who can man one of the LMGs (This is assuming the player buys a ranged skill like nearly everyone has been suggesting). The DocWagon thing is supposedly going to be very temporary, so he doesn't need to be an ideal DW employee, just to have something he can do. And I agree, they wouldn't be likely to hire him to based on his ability to pummel people.

[trollface666]

Well...

Had our first game tonight. Doc Wagon flew in, and we extracted our target customers.

I can see why everyone is harping about IPs and how powerful / needed they are. I ran up to one guy, killed him ( knocked unconscious, whatever ) with a strength 18P punch, not even including successes from the net hits. Then when everyone was done, I walked over to another guy, killed him, then ran over to one last guy, and killed him.

Then again, one of our Runners got hit by a spray of bullets and had on life box left. So I see how deadly the game is for both ranged and melee.

Now that I had my taste of the 'upper limits' of melee, I will be scaling my Troll down a lot. I might not even play a melee runner. But now I see how worthless some characters can be, like my mage healer I wanted to make. By the time 6 combat rounds would go by just to heal one runner, combat is over. So now I understand why people are saying combat doesn't last past the 2/3/4 rounds. I can also see how a melee monster can die before even getting into melee.

Everyone in this thread has been a tremendous help! BioTrollAdept is pretty frikkin disgusting.

- edit -

Oh, the reason Doc Wagon hired us ( 4 Metas and one human ) was because they needed to fill out their minority quota, so they lumped all us minorities into one team, so that their human Doc Wagon teams didn't have to have non-humans with them. Consider our group the 'affirmative action' group.

[Aaron]

Why would DocWagon hire a troll whose only skill is "beating people to death?" I know they're sometimes a fan of hiring combat-oriented folks to whom medical training is a distant second place, but it seems to me that those guys would be the ones that lay down the suppressive fire from the chopper, and that sort of thing. I have trouble imagining them flying low for a pass and dropping a troll out the side hatch to clear an area with his fists, then doubling back to pick up their target.

My guess is that a subset of the "beating people to death" skill set contains "carrying mortally wounded customers, including other trolls, to emergency vehicles," a skill that, while important to commercial medical care in the Sixth World, very rarely gets its own rating in Shadowrun.

Also, I imagine it's not always a chopper that gets sent. I'm willing to bet that DocWagon has more ground vehicles than air vehicles.

[ElFenrir]

Now that I had my taste of the 'upper limits' of melee, I will be scaling my Troll down a lot. I might not even play a melee runner. But now I see how worthless some characters can be, like my mage healer I wanted to make. By the time 6 combat rounds would go by just to heal one runner, combat is over. So now I understand why people are saying combat doesn't last past the 2/3/4 rounds. I can also see how a melee monster can die before even getting into melee.

It's funny, when you mentioned scaling down, i kinda know where you are coming from here. I find with these new martial arts that it's really easy to get into stupid levels with it; and you don't even need to twink out your actual attributes to do it(a troll with an original, natural Str 5 can go to amazing levels, and even a little old man with Str 2 who happens to be an adept can do super insane stuff. Really, the Strength score is almost irrelevant to this; it's more of the bonus after you tack on Critical Strike, Martial Arts, or Bone Lacing, or whatever.)

For me the challenge is actually finding that sweet spot where i'm still whomping rear in melee, im not an insane overpowered tornado at the same time. I mean, dealing 16P or 18P is really all the same, a mook is probably going to implode either way. Hell, 14P or 18P is probably going to cause mook implosion.

I actually found that if im playing in a weekly game im more likely to get into a bit more well rounded guy; one that has a nice strong speciality, but has a good helping of other stuff too; if this means i sacrifice 14P down to 8 or 9P(which is still insane for unarmed), i'd do it. For the long term i like the 'specialist who can back up the team in a few other ways.'

Now, my archetypical character, the 'white-haired prettyboy' albino with the 'skullcrusher legs o' death'-he's sort of a special case, i get to play that guy at most maybe 8 times a year, more like 6 times a year is more accurate. So he's more or less the guy i 'get it out of my system' with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) His job is to turn people to chunky salsa when things go bad for the team and more lethal measures have to be used, and that's what he's best at; he's more of my SR Manga-style character if anything. But i don't think i could play him as a weekly character; he IS rather powerful, and might be one that i could get tired of if played weekly, even though he does have a good helping of other skills(he's decent firearm backup, street etiquette backup, etc.)

Again, this is one of the martial arts challenges i think i enjoy-again, finding the 'sweet spot' where they are awesome at what they do but still within a power level that's not 'boring' (as in too low-or too high), and still team-useful.