How Much Is That Ammo Clip In The Window..., A quick, lame question about spare armmo clips Options

[Rad]

Ok, I'm still pretty new to this game--having only played the SR videogames before--and I have a couple questions about the spare clip weapon accessory.

First, when precisely do you have to buy this? I would assume anytime you want to have reloads on hand, you'd need to factor in the 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) cost of the clips--but what about weapons that are belt-feed or muzzle-loading?

I've been working up a character that uses a Yamaha Sakura Fubiki, so I have the double issue of a muzzle-loading weapon with 4 separate muzzle tubes--and no idea what my costs for spare ammunition are.

Does my character just carry their spare ammo around in a bag, and pull some out when reloading? Or is there some kind of tube-loading device (there seems to be one shown in the Fubiki's illustration) that works like a spare clip but at the slower ml reload speed? If so, do I need 4 ten-round "clips" to reload all four tubes, or can I get away with just a 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) spare clip fee per full load (40 rounds in this case), like other pistols?

Or maybe a 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ammo-belt to pull the shells out of when loading the weapon?

Is there actually a RAW solution to this question? Or is it just something I'll have to work out with the GM?

I've tried to reverse-engineer the equipment costs of the sample characters to figure out how the developers did it, but no luck. I even found a few cases where the characters seem to have more gear than they have money for, but I haven't gotten around to pricing out each character's equipment and checking it against the errata changes, so maybe that explains it.

(Lol at the weapon specialist errata'd to have a missile launcher and no missiles)

Anyway, I'd appreciate any info you guys could give me on this...

[CanRay]

I'd say that four magazines (Often erroniously called "Clips") are needed for Yamaha Sakura Fubiki indeed. And not just any magazines, but Pre-Loaded Yamaha Magazines that can only be bought at specifical dealerships or well-equipped Fixers everywhere (At a slightly increased market rate.).

[Rad]

Sounds about right--although I think used and homemade Fubiki mags would hit the black market almost immediately.

Still, I take it this is your opinion, and not a book ruling?

All this "not covered in the books" stuff with SR4 can take a little getting used to, I must've scanned the book dozens of times looking for equipment weights and numbers for the oft-mentioned recoil of a panther cannon before noticing the single line addressing each issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

I don't really mind rpgs that go "rules-light" like that, but it does make it harder on the players to leave so many basic mechanics up to the gm. (And therefore subject to change from one game master to another.)

[CanRay]

Yeah, house rule. There might be something in the Forums here that's official from the company, but I just got here myself.

Been making a nuisance of myself since, however. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[WeaverMount]

>I'd say that four magazines (Often erroniously called "Clips")
Care you spell out the difference?

[CanRay]

>I'd say that four magazines (Often erroniously called "Clips")
Care you spell out the difference?

Certainly!

Visual Aid Here Because IMG Tag did not work.

The item on the left is a "Clip", the item on the right is a "Magazine".

[Rad]

Sadly, game makers are rarely proficient with the weapons they put in their games--hence not being able to quick-draw melee weapons in SR4.

<-- Can (and has) iaijutsu'd through a steel wall stud IRL, but can't do it in game when playing an adept

[Ed_209a]

For belt-fed ammo, I'd say you get 20-30 belt links for your 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

Note, that with linked ammo like this, you generally won't get the links back. An empty mag can be conveniently stuffed in a pocket and reloaded later. 30 individual belt links are spread over several square meters. If you use a bag to catch the brass and links, you have to worry about the bag filling up and jamming your weapon.

For the Fubuki, I'd say the same 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on top of the ammo cost per tube of ammo.

reloaded fubuki magazines would need to be really well done, or bad things would happen to your expensive roman candle. Yamaha probably doesn't make the mag/barrels tough enough for dozens of rounds, cause they don't need to be that heavy/expensive.

[Rad]

I should probably clarify: By "belt of ammo" I meant a bandoleer-type thing, not an ammo belt as in "belt-fed ammunition". Just trying to think of an alternative for non-magazine using weapons since carrying a bunch of loose bullets around in my pocket seems equal parts stupid, silly, and dangerous. I know there are belts like that used to hold shotgun cartridges nowadays.

Other than that, I'm not sure I understand your post. SR4 already has rules for reloading an empty clip (magazine, but the game calls them clips), and I have no idea what you're referring to about dozens of rounds and bags jamming the weapon. When I mentioned having the shells in a bag, I was talking about just having a sack full of lose ammo like a bag of marbles that you'd reach into and take out one at a time to lead a muzzle-loading weapon--mainly to illustrate how ridiculous that sounded and why I was looking for an alternative storage/carrying method.

[edit] OK, you're talking about belt-fed weapons there. I've been up all night so I'm a little dense right now. Still not sure what you mean about the dozens of rounds for the Fubiki though...

[kigmatzomat]

The Fubiki is a weird little bit of technology; it isn't "muzzle loading" as it is "loaded muzzle." You can't buy individual cartridges for it; the rounds are manufactured into the barrels. And unless you are a whizz armorer with a good chemistry/electronics background and a shop, you can't make your own.

Me, I'd say raise the price of Fubiki ammo by 5Y, the cost of a magazine. Fortunately, each barrel holds the standard ammo unit of 10 rounds. Although with the exception of shotgun shells, I've never seen small arms ammo in boxes that small IRL. Fifty is the norm, but I personally don't see the value in buying in lots of less than 500.

[CanRay]

Yeah, that's the one thing I miss from the Street Samurai Catelog... Ammo in bulk.

"And let my neighbours know I got 'em!"

[Songs of Concret...]

Now that you mention it, it does seem odd to buy ammo in units of 10. Most ammo I've seen comes in larger quantities. Especially in the case of pistol and rifle ammo.

[CanRay]

Stuffer Shack Convience-Sized Ammunition Packs!

[Rad]

The Fubiki is a weird little bit of technology; it isn't "muzzle loading" as it is "loaded muzzle." You can't buy individual cartridges for it; the rounds are manufactured into the barrels. And unless you are a whizz armorer with a good chemistry/electronics background and a shop, you can't make your own.

Me, I'd say raise the price of Fubiki ammo by 5Y, the cost of a magazine. Fortunately, each barrel holds the standard ammo unit of 10 rounds. Although with the exception of shotgun shells, I've never seen small arms ammo in boxes that small IRL. Fifty is the norm, but I personally don't see the value in buying in lots of less than 500.

Really? It does say the fubuki uses caseless ammo stacked in-line in the barrel, but it also specificly lists the weapon as muzzle-loading (ml) in the table and there are ways of doing that without having to swap out the frigging barrels on your gun. That would explain the picture a little better though...

...kind of a stupid design for a gun that way though. If a composite sniper rife suffers decreased performace when it gets bumped, wouldn't this thing?

Yay for internal consistency.

[CanRay]

Yay for internal consistency.

This gun uses a technology that exists today called "Metal Storm", and is actually *VERY* reliable. Almost completely solid state, the bullets are almost the only moving parts.

The only moving parts on this gun would be the folding shoulder brace, the trigger, and the removeable barrels. That's. It.

Now, compare that to a multi-part, finely machined, hand-made tool designed to be carefully lugged around, fire one shot, then carefully lugged back, and there you have it.

[DocTaotsu]

Also keeping in mind that one is supposed to put out a wall of lead whereas the other is supposed to engage targets accurately up to a kilometer and a half away.

[CanRay]

Also keeping in mind that one is supposed to put out a wall of lead whereas the other is supposed to engage targets accurately up to a kilometer and a half away.

I'm stealing that right now, Doc.

[Rad]

@ DocTaotsu: Good point, but for a weapon whose entire sales pitch is improved accuracy and stability due to a lack of moving parts, having a detachable barrel seems like a bad idea.

@ CanRay: MetalStorm is a company and a brand, in the same sense that Band-Aid is a brand of adhesive medical strips. I'm familiar with the company and their tech, which is why I wanted to make a character that used a fubuki.

It's also why I find the "fubukis use removable barrels" idea ridiculous. Removable barrels are a bad idea for stacked projectile weapons.

[Shiloh]

Removable barrels are a bad idea for stacked projectile weapons.

Not if you buy the barrel loaded from the manufacturer and only use manufacturer-branded consumables. And the weapon is designed so the barrel is the clip. You might even only be able to get them in 4-barrel sets... Turn the used barrels in for a deposit refund. It's not like they'll suffer from much wear between refurb/refills.

[DocTaotsu]

@ DocTaotsu: Good point, but for a weapon whose entire sales pitch is improved accuracy and stability due to a lack of moving parts, having a detachable barrel seems like a bad idea.

It's also why I find the "fubukis use removable barrels" idea ridiculous. Removable barrels are a bad idea for stacked projectile weapons.

I fail to see how the lack of moving parts (because your barrel seats directly into a socket and not a complex system designed to move rounds into and out of battery hundreds of times per minute) decreases performance. I will also note that the max suggested range if 50 meters.

Removable barrels, as I understand them, are pretty much the only good idea for stacked projectiles. The Metal Storm system works now and works fairly well (from what I've heard which admittedly isn't much), I welcome you to present evidence that there is another system of stacking projectiles that works better than a prefabbed factory direct solution.

[Ed_209a]

Now that you mention it, it does seem odd to buy ammo in units of 10. Most ammo I've seen comes in larger quantities. Especially in the case of pistol and rifle ammo.

We, the players, buy them in lots of 10 for simpler accounting. Our _characters_ take them home in boxes of 20, 50 or whatever.

[CanRay]

We, the players, buy them in lots of 10 for simpler accounting. Our _characters_ take them home in boxes of 20, 50 or whatever.

Or get the 10-round Convience Packs at the Stuffer Shack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Better to buy in bulk from your friendly, local Gunlegger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I've just gotta take this opportunity to bitch about extended clips taking up a weapon mod slot, and requiring an armorer to install. I'm not a gun person, but it seems to me that a longer clip wouldn't really require any modification to the gun. Am I wrong?

[DocTaotsu]

Yeeaaaah, I never really realized that's how the rule was written. All my players put them on weapons that had internal magazines and the like so it made a fair bit of sense that it'd take up a mod slot. It it was something simple like the number of shells in a shotgun i made the armorer test pretty easy, extending the capacity on a sport rifle? Not so much.

But yeah, unless things have changed dramatically I think that slapping a super extendo mag into your Ares Pred IV should be a matter of simply buying a longer clip.

[Speed Wraith]

I've just gotta take this opportunity to bitch about extended clips taking up a weapon mod slot, and requiring an armorer to install. I'm not a gun person, but it seems to me that a longer clip wouldn't really require any modification to the gun. Am I wrong?

It is because it adds to the overall bulkiness of the weapon, that's why the rule is the way it is slot-wise. The use of the Armorer skill comes in probably because extended clips go beyond the already-high capacity of standard mass-produced clips. What I mean is that you have to remachine the clip itself in some cases or alter the weapon's feeding mechanism for a wider clip. Adding capacity to a clip doesn't just mean making it longer, it can also mean using a wider clip with a different stacking, I don't remember what that is called off the top of my head.